Return of the Marine - CDMac's WTF to do next log

I’m really enjoying my full body sessions. Glad I could convince you to do them for the week!

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Yeah, man! Thanks for the tip.

I’m not really liking the “Jack Shit” assistance though.

I really want/need to build upper back density/width so I’ll be back on rows next week for sure but doing 2 lifts each on 2 days has gotten me through the Thanksgiving holiday logistic challenge.

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I would try out chest supported rows or seals rows, with a few second pause at the top, for this. Worked for me and a couple of friends when i suggested it to them. when you are doing the 5 sets of 10 it really kills yah

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It’s not 5/3/1 (at least I haven’t seen it) but snatch grip high pulls feel pretty good on my upper back. I do them from the hang. It’s also fun to do something that has a little “pop” to it.

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Yeah I think I will keep rotating row variations in. I’ve done chest supported in the past and really like them but I’ve never done seal rows. Will have to look those up. Thanks for the tip !

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I’ve seen CT talk a lot about the SGHP and really like the idea. I may throw those in at some point. I’ve never really done much Oly lifting so when I get to the beach body challenge and the cleans it’ll be fun to get better at that movement. I may take a conditioning day next week and put together a list of exercises I want to learn or get better at and put together a workout with just those. SGHP would be in the mix for sure.

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C1/W3/D4 - Sunday 11/26/2017

Weight: 173

Warmup:

  • Nimble 11
  • Band pulls, shoulder mobility

A1 - Face Pulls 3x10
A2 - Rope Crunches 3x12
B1 - Chest Supported DB Rows 3x8 @30
B2 - Ab Rollouts (ezcurl bar) 3x12
C1 - Seal Rows 3x8 @95
C2 - Hanging Leg Raises 3x15

NOTES:

  • Wife went to gym so I tagged along and got this work in
  • LOVED the seal rows (went light just to work on MMC) Thanks @theonecamko for the suggestion
  • Had Snatch Grip High Pulls on my list to try out today but gym was busy and didn’t have the room to set it up (they only have one power rack with pins)
  • Will have to do the SGHP on an early morning session when I have the rack to myself
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C1/W4/D1 - Monday 11/27/2017

Weight: 174.6

Warmup:

  • Nimble 11
  • 200 singles jump rope
  • Band pulls, shoulder mobility
  • 20# smash ball bent over smash
Military Press:

90x5
105x5
115x15

Supersetted assistance
Low incline DB press 5x15 @30
Chin-ups 5x10

NOTES:

  • upped TM’s +5/+10 pounds for upper body/lower body to start week 4
  • No belt - don’t think there is a need yet
  • Shoulders complaining about dips so did low incline DBs instead
  • REP PR for 115 although I needed 16 to beat my e1RM for last week’s 125x12
  • Not justifying anything but realize I wasn’t as fresh today as I was last week since I didn’t have 2 rest days
  • Felt really good on press and have gotten more comfortable with grip width and breath
  • Weight moving in right direction (up slightly) and I woke still looking lean
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C1/W4/D2 - Tuesday 11/28/2017

Weight: 174.4

NOTES:

  • Taking a day off today as my shoulders are both really sore (right more than left)
  • need to evaluate my pressing (OHP, barbell and DB variations) to see if my form is putting my shoulders in bad position
  • Will need to get someone to video my next sets to post as form check on here
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C1/W4/D3 - Wednesday 11/29/2017

Weight: 174.6

Warmup:

  • Defranco’s Nimble 11
  • 400 singles jump rope
  • Hang / deep squat / hang (30-60 seconds each)
  • Band pulls, shoulder mobility

Deadlift:
190x5
215x5
245x17

Superset assistance lifts
Good Mornings 4x12 @105
Hanging Leg Raises toes to bar (TTB) 2x15, 1x10,3,2, 1x5,5,5

Notes:

  • Felt like total ass this morning (must be a deadlift day theme even though I like DLs)
  • Deadlift - hips felt good, back felt strong
  • Grip still weak link - had to reset grip after reps 10 and 14 on AMRAP/5+ set
  • Good Mornings - added weight to go to 105# vs 85# last week
  • Hanging leg raises - had to break up 2 sets

Questions for the crew:

  • Should I count the full 17 reps on my AMRAP set even though I had to reset my grip?
    • seems like this would be equivalent to full stop pulling vs TNG
    • I know heavy carries and rows will help strengthen my grip over time
  • Does it make sense to keep training with such high AMRAP sets?
    • I never did more than 12-15 reps on anything other than calves so this is new for my body (maybe that’s a good thing)
    • It’s definitely a mental focus challenge to stay engaged and not have form breakdown with high rep sets
    • Workout today was the hardest yet of the first 4 weeks of 5/3/1 - 17 reps even at only 245# crushed me
    • I’m going to jump in a cold shower now and try to revive myself after DLs tried to steal my soul
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Definitely. There is some merit to going dead stop vs. TNG, so I would still count it as a 17 rep set.

Are you pulling with a mixed grip?

High rep squats have done good things for me in terms of building leg mass and mental fortitude. I’m not as much of a fan of high reps for the other main lifts though. There can be arguments made for doing sets up to 10-12, but I think 17reps for anything but squats isn’t quite getting the same “bang for your buck” compared to if you had more weight on the bar with less reps.

I’m not sure where, but I believe Wendler did recommend caps on his AMRAP sets. It may be listed somewhere in his sub forum on here.

If I remember correctly, it was something like:
On your 5’s week AMRAP <= 10reps
On your 3’s week AMRAP <= 8reps
On your 1’s week AMRAP <= 5reps

It is definitely good that you are taking a conservative TM to run with for this cycle, but I’ve never had such a low TM that I could ever get 17reps with a weight on any of my top sets.

I’m not saying you should go and up your TM right away, but there might be some value in increasing your TMs more than the prescribed 5 and 10lbs for next cycle.

I like all my prescribed sets to feel like work. If you’re getting 17 reps on your final set, I’m assuming everything else up to the last set feels like a walk in the park?

Ok, well…I may have gotten slightly away from the point I was trying to make there, but hopefully something in that mess helped you out! Let me know if you have any questions and I’ll try to clarify.

Things are looking good though man.

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I agree with @littlesleeper. The reps still count at one set. Back when I actually did AMRAP sets I’d switch grip every three reps. I used an alternating grip and never did touch and go (I do now though).

Wendler did say to cap AMRAP sets and I remember it being 10 on the 5+ day. I think it was in his forum. I don’t remember the other caps but 8 and 5 sound reasonable.

You have two options: adjust your TM more than recommended to eliminate these brutal sets or just ride it out. I bet you’re under 10 reps on your 5+ day in another cycle or two.

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No, I am pulling double overhand with chalk, hook grip with taped thumbs

Yes… I feel like I’m cruising through the 2 tops sets before the AMRAP sets; work but not tough work

That’s kinda what I was thinking too.

Most definitely!! I really appreciate your input.

Thank you. I think I’ll roll with TMs as set at least through this week’s work then maybe have a deep think on it over the weekend.

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I’ll do some searching on that and see if I can find it (here, in the “Beyond” book, or elsewhere)

I could probably ride it out til the end of this cycle and see. I’ll definitely think about it some over the weekend, look for that guidance in the 5/3/1 forum, or post a question in there as someone is bound to have that post bookmarked.

Thanks, @Frank_C for your input too.

I’ll let you know what I decide to do (increase TMs or ride it out) - leaning on raising them a bit after this week so my working sets are actually working and not just more warmup to a single high rep set.

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I wouldn’t call it a grip weak link myself. I don’t think many people can double overhand their top set of 5/3/1, especially for that many reps.

People will pull either mixed, or strap up for their heavier sets. As soon as you start approaching your upper %'s of your 1RM, grip (double overhand) will always be your limiting factor (unless you’re a grip strength freak). Also, high rep hook grip isn’t fun for the thumbs.

I pull double overhand for all my warmup sets, just to make sure the grip strength remains, but when I’m deadlifting I REALLY don’t want grip to be my limiting factor since I’m not deadlifting for grip strength. So I hook/strap/mixed grip it as soon as I hit my working sets.

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I agree with this 500%!

@cdmac24, I just searched the forum and found my own quote. In the Beyond book Jim references capping your PR sets at 10, 8, 5. It’s in the section on Jokers though. He might’ve been applying that to PR sets done before Joker sets.

In that same thread Jim follows my post by saying PR sets are PRs and essentially there’s no cap.

I think you can build some mental fortitude with high reps sets (even on deads) but if form breaks down due to fatigue then the set is over right then and there. Jim always advocates starting too light and strength building is a marathon. In 12 weeks you might find yourself having to decrease your TM because you’re grinding to get minimum reps.

I don’t think either option is wrong. I’d definitely lean towards a bigger jump on the TM because I too dislike sets of 10+ of Deadlifts.

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I’ve never liked mixed grip so I’ve always pulled double overhand.

Of course, I used to strap my heavier sets to, like you mention, ensure my grip wasn’t limiting my ability to pull

I started experimenting with the hook grip and have been using it on all my working sets since starting this cycle. (never used it before).

I love the hook grip so far except it still gives out at higher reps and I thought that was just grip strength issue since I’m not even pulling 300# yet.

I don’t have any thumb pain (even on the 17 reps today) - some of that is probably due to pulling only 245# so I’ll be interested to see if the hook grip hurts more/any once I start moving some bigger weight

Anyway, I think if I keep my TMs like they are, I’ll start strapping my AMRAP sets and if I drop my TMs to not go over the threshold like you guys mentioned, I’ll just hook grip until that becomes an issue (if it does)

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AHHH, I haven’t even read that far into Beyond yet as I am just running Triumvirate so I bought Beyond to look at some of the templates but hadn’t dug into jokers and all that.

I agree with you that there is some value in taking yourself to the edge (or pushing beyond what you think is the edge) with high rep sets.

Had my wife video my form today on one of my warmup sets (will post later just for fun)
Was hoping to get the AMRAP set on video but she had to get in and out of gym today and get to an early meeting. I didn’t feel like form suffered much even at 17 reps except I wasn’t as hard on the glute squeeze on 3 or 4 reps as I could have been. I’ll have to recruit someone else if she isn’t available next time to make sure I’m getting locked out on those reps (and focus more on hard glute contraction)

I like deadlifts but anything over 12 or so is just asking for some form breakdown and I already fight low back pain (no need to exacerbate the situation)

Lots to think about on how to proceed.

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Some good stuff here. I was a little concerned starting 5/3/1 that the first two work sets would be too easy (I also started with a fairly conservative TM). Just trying my best to ignore that feeling and trust the program, eventually they’ll be numbers that are more challenging.

As far as adjusting your TM, I wouldn’t suggest asking about that in the 5/3/1 forum. You’re bound to get a bunch of responses with people jumping down your throat with some holier-than-thou bullshit. Sometimes it’s warranted in the case of younger folks and rank newbies over thinking stuff, but you’re a grown ass man and if you don’t want to pull 17 reps on your deadlifts up that TM a little bit more lol. You probably aren’t in danger of stalling out anytime soon even if you up it by like 20-30 lbs.

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This is great advice! I like 5/3/1 but I’m not into the cult following. Even Jim irritates me at times. A lot of people post their tweaks to his templates and he jumps down their throat and says they don’t understand the program. I’m sitting over here thinking “what the hell is wrong with his tweak and how is it not the program?” Apparently my degree, certifications, and 16+ years of training have taught me nothing because I can’t see why he gets so upset.

For that reason I’m always clear to say that I’m running 5/3/1 for specific lifts while doing my own thing for the rest. I’ll damn sure never post “My 5/3/1 Program” in the forum because it will trigger lots of people.

Like any good coach/trainer I pick up bits and pieces of programs and add them to MY TOOLBOX. If you follow my training long enough then you’ll see some 5/3/1, some of CT’s stuff, and then some stuff I’ve come up with or learned at the Olympics Training Center.

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