T Nation

Catholicism - Heart and Soul of a Great Nation


#1

60% of my son's Plebe class at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis are Catholic. Six members of the Supreme Court are Catholic. Hmmm...maybe there's a reason why Washington DC is in Maryland, the Catholic state! :wink:

From a private e-mail...

"The Church educates 2.6 million children per day, saving taxpayers 18 billion per year. 92% of these students graduate from high school.

In a study by the United Methodist Church, 10% of clergy have been pedophiles. 1.7% of priests have been pedophiles. This is not an exclusive Catholic problem. 12% of Protestant clergy admitted to having sexual relations with members of their congregation.

The Catholic church runs 230 hospitals nationwide. One in five patients is treated at a Catholic hospital."

--- this was compiled by a Jewish businessman here in Cleveland. I don't know if his numbers are perfect.

Discuss?


#2

It is scarcely an exxageration to say that the Catholic Church and Western Civilization are nearly inseparable.


#3

That may be so. But NOWHERE in the Bible does it say we need to pray the rosary, or confess to a priest, etc.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

The Bible is the only ultimate authority. Not the Pope, nor anyone else who changes the “rules” at will. Any religion, doctrine, system that doesn’t uphold Christ’s qualifications for truth must be rejected.


#4

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
That may be so. But NOWHERE in the Bible does it say we need to pray the rosary, or confess to a priest, etc.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

The Bible is the only ultimate authority. Not the Pope, nor anyone else who changes the “rules” at will. Any religion, doctrine, system that doesn’t uphold Christ’s qualifications for truth must be rejected. [/quote]

I’m not sure what anything after your first sentence has to do with this thread. But I’ll respond anyway: sorry, you’re incorrect and obviously not well read on Doctrinal History and how/why it evolved over time. Moreover, the Bible grew out of the Church; the Church existed first. That is a fact, sir.


#5

I wondered why so many Plebes at Navy are Catholic and I think its because public schools don’t teach any ethics AT ALL. Whether a person is an atheist, Protestant, Muslim, Catholic or what not, religious schools make an attempt to teach right from wrong.

If I were running something like the Naval Academy, I’d probably prefer people who at least examined the questions. Public schools, at least to my understanding, are amoral.


#6

The Bible did not grow out of the Catholic Church. Maybe the Catholic Bible did.


#7

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
The Bible did not grow out of the Catholic Church. [/quote]

Nope. Do you even understand what the Church is? For you to make that statement, you would have to have some understanding of what you mean by the “Catholic Church.” So let’s hear what you think it is.

You really need to study the early Church my friend. This is often, by the way, the very issue that converts Protestants - once, that is, they take the trouble to ACTUALLY LOOK INTO IT.

That^^ is so because, as JH Newman said so wisely, “To be steeped in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” How true. But you’re going to have to find out for yourself.

Here is a simple timeline fer yer convenience.

c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James
c. 45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy
July 18-19, 64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written
June 9, 68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written
Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.


#8

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
That may be so. But NOWHERE in the Bible does it say we need to pray the rosary, or confess to a priest, etc.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

The Bible is the only ultimate authority. Not the Pope, nor anyone else who changes the “rules” at will. Any religion, doctrine, system that doesn’t uphold Christ’s qualifications for truth must be rejected. [/quote]

Good job, Iron Dwarf. I would venture to ask you where did the Bible come from though?


#9

Yes Head Hunter, the government is hard pressed to beat private schools, let alone a Catholic College Prep.

I know of several Jewish children (and personal friends) that go or have gone to different Catholic College Preps. around the Phoenix area because of not having any Jewish schools around Phoenix Metropolitan area. When talking to them and their parents, the usual reason for sending their children is because of the strong morals, the Jewish like teaching of the Torah, and nothing prepares you for college like Catholic College Prep.

Plus they always have kick ass football programs. Go Brophy Broncos!


#10

…Constantine sensed that the “Christian” religion-albeit apostate and deeply corrupted by then-could be effectively utilized as a revitalizing and uniting force to serve his grand scheme for imperial domination. Adopting the foundations of apostate Christianity to gain support in furthering his own political ends, he decided to unify the people under one “catholic,” or universal, religion. Pagan customs and celebrations were given “Christian” names. And “Christian” clergymen were given the status, salary, and influential clout of pagan priests…


#11

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
The Bible did not grow out of the Catholic Church. [/quote]

Nope. Do you even understand what the Church is? For you to make that statement, you would have to have some understanding of what you mean by the “Catholic Church.” So let’s hear what you think it is.

You really need to study the early Church my friend. This is often, by the way, the very issue that converts Protestants - once, that is, they take the trouble to ACTUALLY LOOK INTO IT. That is so because, as JH Newman said so wisely, “To be steeped in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” How true. But you’re going to have to find out for yourself.

Here is a simple timeline fer yer convenience.

c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James
c. 45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy
July 18-19, 64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written
June 9, 68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written
Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.[/quote]

Sorry Iron…Not trying to be ugly about it or anything but Kaz is right. The OT was pre-church, but the NT grew with and came out of the church itself. History bares this out. As for the final authority, it’s God, not the church or the bible. God himself.

The “Catholic Bible” is just the Bible. Martin Luther removed 7 books called the Apocrypha, but that’s about it.


#12

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
…Constantine sensed that the “Christian” religion-albeit apostate and deeply corrupted by then-could be effectively utilized as a revitalizing and uniting force to serve his grand scheme for imperial domination. Adopting the foundations of apostate Christianity to gain support in furthering his own political ends, he decided to unify the people under one “catholic,” or universal, religion. Pagan customs and celebrations were given “Christian” names. And “Christian” clergymen were given the status, salary, and influential clout of pagan priests…

[/quote]

Right. God worked through Constantine and many others to unite the Church; even Satan, unwittingly and ultimately, does the work of God. Moroever, the Catholic Church embraces truth wherever it is found - even taking the best from Pagan religions, which were but dreams and prophecies sent by God to Man. For all Truth comes from God.


#13

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
…Constantine sensed that the “Christian” religion-albeit apostate and deeply corrupted by then-could be effectively utilized as a revitalizing and uniting force to serve his grand scheme for imperial domination. Adopting the foundations of apostate Christianity to gain support in furthering his own political ends, he decided to unify the people under one “catholic,” or universal, religion. Pagan customs and celebrations were given “Christian” names. And “Christian” clergymen were given the status, salary, and influential clout of pagan priests…

[/quote]

Right. God worked through Constantine and many others to unite the Church; even Satan, unwittingly and ultimately, does the work of God. Moroever, the Catholic Church embraces truth wherever it is found - even taking the best from Pagan religions, which were but dreams and prophecies sent by God to Man. For all Truth comes from God. [/quote]

Taking the best from Pagan religions ? Like Christmas?


#14

The church of God and the Catholic Church are the same in name only. In a similar vein, the Protestant denominations are usually equally warped from their founding. Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic Church because of the corruption and decadence, along with the deism of the Pope. Similar to Father Mackey in South Park confronting the Catholic Church over sexual abuse. They worshiped a giant spider.

So while katzen has a wonderful story for us, its kinda irrelevant. The Catholic Church lost its mandate from heaven the moment it legitimized itself, and no longer served God but themselves.


#15

Again: the Catholic Church embraces Truth wherever it’s found, including when it is found in “pagan” religions. It always has done so - and always will. Many aspects of Christmas are pagan. All Truth proceeds from God.


#16

Christmas is completely pagan.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm


#17

[quote]Kanada wrote:
The church of God and the Catholic Church are the same in name only. In a similar vein, the Protestant denominations are usually equally warped from their founding. Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic Church because of the corruption and decadence, along with the deism of the Pope. Similar to Father Mackey in South Park confronting the Catholic Church over sexual abuse. They worshiped a giant spider.

So while katzen has a wonderful story for us, its kinda irrelevant. The Catholic Church lost its mandate from heaven the moment it legitimized itself, and no longer served God but themselves.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is filled with sinners. Yup. So?


#18

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Christmas is completely pagan.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm[/quote]

I have seen your sort come knocking on my door - curiously, even as a child I could tell there was something terribly wrong; I couldn’t put my finger on it; there was something in the vacant stare; the relentless harping on a obscure point that no one really cared about but the persistant interlocutor; a point that that was isolated and pinned to the wall like a dead butterfly waiting for vivisection for no purpose other than winning an argument; an obsession with logic chopping; a certain lack of charm and humor. Then I saw the Body Snatchers and finally I was able to identify what the problem was and still is.

As the inestimable Father George Rutler said in a recent sermon: “When the Church proclaims the teachings of the Risen Christ most powerfully, her antagonists pay her the compliment of getting angry, especially in the holiest season of the year. The Russian Orthodox, I am told, say that when God builds a church, Satan pitches a tent outside.”


#19

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Christmas is completely pagan.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm[/quote]

I have seen your sort come knocking on my door - curiously, even as a child I could tell there was something terribly wrong; I couldn’t put my finger on it; there was something in the vacant stare; the relentless harping on a obscure point that no one really cared about but the persistant interlocutor; a point that that was isolated and pinned to the wall like a dead butterfly waiting for vivisection for no purpose other than winning an argument; an obsession with logic chopping; a certain lack of charm and humor. Then I saw the Body Snatchers and finally I was able to identify what the problem was and still is.

As the inestimable Father George Rutler said in a recent sermon: “When the Church proclaims the teachings of the Risen Christ most powerfully, her antagonists pay her the compliment of getting angry, especially in the holiest season of the year. The Russian Orthodox, I am told, say that when God builds a church, Satan pitches a tent outside.”[/quote]

I don’t understand how that applies to what I said about Christmas. I said Christmas was pagan, and then gave you one of many sources.


#20

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:
The church of God and the Catholic Church are the same in name only. In a similar vein, the Protestant denominations are usually equally warped from their founding. Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic Church because of the corruption and decadence, along with the deism of the Pope. Similar to Father Mackey in South Park confronting the Catholic Church over sexual abuse. They worshiped a giant spider.

So while katzen has a wonderful story for us, its kinda irrelevant. The Catholic Church lost its mandate from heaven the moment it legitimized itself, and no longer served God but themselves.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is filled with sinners. Yup. So?

[/quote]

Well, more like The Catholic Church is not the sole avenue to God