[quote]GCF wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Chris, you are not getting my PM’s are you?[/quote]
Oh dear. He giving you the silent treatment huh? Shouldn’t have told him that your god could kick his god’s ass. He’s upset. You shouldn’t have nipped the Lions heel Trib. Don’t you know anything about the Crudsades?![/quote]
Troll?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Chris, you are not getting my PM’s are you?[/quote]
No, I am not.[/quote]
I didn’t think so. You were set to only receive PM’s from friends I bet. That’s why you also never got my past ones either. I know you wouldn’t ignore me. That’s not your way. By now, regardless of anything else, I’m sure you know I wouldn’t just ignore you either.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
Religion is just man’s interpretation of the divine. No one has the complete picture. Christ had a good message. The divisions between Christian churches is based on greed/power/politics.[/quote]
Read Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton, you’ll enjoy it…
And after that read:
After reading all that, and if you still disagree with the Church, then I suppose you will always disagree with the Church. But, those five (there is six in the list, but I am not including Mere Christianity) will give you a base in understanding the Catholic Church.[/quote]
I have a pretty good understanding of the Catholic Church, what with my uncle as a priest, my aunt a nun, my father going through the seminary. Thanks for the suggestions though. I have only read 3 of the 5.[/quote]
Then I assume you’re Catholic.[/quote]
Born Catholic. Now I see it for the scam it is, much like every other religion on the planet. Not as crooked as some but worse than others.
Chris, what are you hoping to get out of this thread? Surely you know by now that truly objective discussion of religious ideas is impossible. People inevitably skew the collective logic, historical writings, and scientific facts according to their own world view. They see themselves as objective, and see everyone else as biased. As a result, it’s impossible to arrive at any consensus, except to agree to disagree.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, what are you hoping to get out of this thread? Surely you know by now that truly objective discussion of religious ideas is impossible. People inevitably skew the collective logic, historical writings, and scientific facts according to their own world view. They see themselves as objective, and see everyone else as biased. As a result, it’s impossible to arrive at any consensus, except to agree to disagree.[/quote]
While I think this is true for the people who write the posts, they tend to be people who already have a strong opinion on the matter, and plenty of justification and emotional investment in their conclusions, else they wouldn’t be typing them in the first place.
There are, however, roughly ten times as many views as opposed to posts for each thread, and those views are made up of certain people who have not yet made up their minds, but who are looking for answers or at least curious, else they wouldn’t be viewing (well, these threads are entertaining as all get out, but if you just wanted entertainment, there are plenty of other forums more appropriate to spend your time in).
So, I do actually believe that maybe the internet is not really just a big waste of time. For the most part. Kind of.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, what are you hoping to get out of this thread? Surely you know by now that truly objective discussion of religious ideas is impossible. People inevitably skew the collective logic, historical writings, and scientific facts according to their own world view. They see themselves as objective, and see everyone else as biased. As a result, it’s impossible to arrive at any consensus, except to agree to disagree.[/quote]
While I think this is true for the people who write the posts, they tend to be people who already have a strong opinion on the matter, and plenty of justification and emotional investment in their conclusions, else they wouldn’t be typing them in the first place.
There are, however, roughly ten times as many views as opposed to posts for each thread, and those views are made up of certain people who have not yet made up their minds, but who are looking for answers or at least curious, else they wouldn’t be viewing (well, these threads are entertaining as all get out, but if you just wanted entertainment, there are plenty of other forums more appropriate to spend your time in).
So, I do actually believe that maybe the internet is not really just a big waste of time. For the most part. Kind of.[/quote]
The internet is a timesink between workouts. If people are losing sleep over a difference of opinions over the interwebz then I question their sanity.
I pretty much agree with the last 2 posts from forlife and Cortes respectively.
Chris, did you get my PM from earlier now?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, what are you hoping to get out of this thread? Surely you know by now that truly objective discussion of religious ideas is impossible. People inevitably skew the collective logic, historical writings, and scientific facts according to their own world view. They see themselves as objective, and see everyone else as biased. As a result, it’s impossible to arrive at any consensus, except to agree to disagree.[/quote]
Word, but it’s better than discussing on college campus.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I pretty much agree with the last 2 posts from forlife and Cortes respectively.
Chris, did you get my PM from earlier now?[/quote]
No, mods can we get some help here. how come I am not getting messages?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< The internet is a timesink between workouts. >>>[/quote] I disagree and agree with Cortes. I lose no sleep and honestly don’t care very much most of the time what anybody online thinks of me. I also do not in any way or to any degree view success or failure in these forums (or anywhere else) in terms of anybody’s response. Obedience is the measure of success. Jeremiah preached to a stiff necked Israel for 40 years and nobody listened. God sent terrible judgment as the prophet wept writing the book of lamentations. He was a complete success because he did what he was told.
I have no idea if God will use anything I say to move anybody or nobody, but Cortes is right. Many times more people will read than post. I simply try to testify of His awesome grace, power and justice. The work of the Holy Spirit will do the rest or not depending entirely on His will.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I pretty much agree with the last 2 posts from forlife and Cortes respectively.
Chris, did you get my PM from earlier now?[/quote]
No, mods can we get some help here. how come I am not getting messages?[/quote]If worse comes to worse pm me an email address. Trust me, I’ll be giving you an address on my own mail server as like in my basement hosted by myself. I have much more to lose than you do.
I spent a considerable amount of time I don’t have much of on a response to your PM. It would be just fabulous (at least to me) if you ever got to read it =]
Cortes, you make a good point. There probably are a few open minded people out there who are genuinely willing to consider both sides. Unfortunately, once they begin forming an opinion based on those arguments, they immediately become subject to the same confirmatory biases that were perpetuated by the original protagonists.
The best you can do, IMO, is educate yourself on these biases and relentlessly evaluate your own opinions accordingly. The moment you think you have THE truth, and no longer doubt your own convictions, is the moment you become a lost cause.
[quote]forlife wrote:
The moment you think you have THE truth, and no longer doubt your own convictions, is the moment you become a lost cause. [/quote]
Does that mean you’re a lost cause?
I’m willing to revise my conclusions if reliable scientific evidence warrants doing so.
Of course, you would claim the same, which is why our individual opinions don’t mean squat.
What does matter are the collective conclusions of the major scientific organizations, based on what we currently know from the best designed research on the subject.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Cortes, you make a good point. There probably are a few open minded people out there who are genuinely willing to consider both sides. Unfortunately, once they begin forming an opinion based on those arguments, they immediately become subject to the same confirmatory biases that were perpetuated by the original protagonists.
The best you can do, IMO, is educate yourself on these biases and relentlessly evaluate your own opinions accordingly. The moment you think you have THE truth, and no longer doubt your own convictions, is the moment you become a lost cause. [/quote]
Can’t disagree with any of this.
I was one of the people I am talking about. I swung around a lot of the space that makes up the famous ideological quadrant map we all know before finally settling in an area I felt I had arrived at (as much as is possible) on my own.
And yes, I am still adjusting, though a lot less than before.
Same here. I’ve covered the gamut, from conservative Christianity to rational empiricism. There is a great book called Stages of Faith that summarizes research on the stages people navigate in the course of moral maturity. There are 6 stages, and progressively fewer people move from one stage to the next. By my best guess, I’m currently at stage 5…maybe some day I’ll make it to the final stage 
Here’s the way I see it, and why all religious debates/discussions are pointless.
Your views on religion are very personal. They are tied to your upbringing, you leanr them from your parents/elders around you since a young age (generally speaking). I believe a person’s religious views are much akin to their sexual orientation/experiences: extremely personal, highly specific due to life experiences and something that only YOU can know and have a real effect on.
Someone can say whatever they will about your beliefs, or a lack of them, but in the end it’s ultimately YOU alone who will form your religious identity. The emotion and logic with which to base one’s beliefs comes from within.
And, this is coming from an atheist.
[quote]destroyedquads wrote:
Here’s the way I see it, and why all religious debates/discussions are pointless.
Your views on religion are very personal. They are tied to your upbringing, you leanr them from your parents/elders around you since a young age (generally speaking). I believe a person’s religious views are much akin to their sexual orientation/experiences: extremely personal, highly specific due to life experiences and something that only YOU can know and have a real effect on.
Someone can say whatever they will about your beliefs, or a lack of them, but in the end it’s ultimately YOU alone who will form your religious identity. The emotion and logic with which to base one’s beliefs comes from within.
And, this is coming from an atheist.[/quote]
This is what I call Kennedyism, I do not believe it is the correct way in which to live a full and religious life.
[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< The moment you think you have THE truth, and no longer doubt your own convictions, is the moment you become a lost cause. [/quote]
Romans 8:26-39 (all emphases in the NASB translation)
[quote]26-In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27-and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28-And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29-For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30-and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31-What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32-He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33-Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34-who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35-Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36-Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37-But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38-For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39-nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [/quote]No doubting here and thank God for it. There are secondary areas of doctrine where I quite honestly am occasionally persuaded by whatever competent proponent I read last. However, the gospel itself, the deadness of the human race in the first Adam and their only hope being made alive together in the last, is something about which doubt proclaims the doubters exclusion from it’s reality.
I would sooner doubt your existence than I would the eternal decrees of almighty God as revealed by Him on His own authority in the Christian Bible.
[quote]forlife wrote:
The best you can do, IMO, is educate yourself on these biases and relentlessly evaluate your own opinions accordingly. The moment you think you have THE truth, and no longer doubt your own convictions, is the moment you become a lost cause. [/quote]
Heh. Wasn’t so long ago that Forlife was getting preached at with this same message in an attempt to tone down the conceit of his zealotry - “everyone who disagrees with me is a bigot!!” - now he preaches to people urging them to rethink such an approach.
Here at PWI, we get results.