T Nation

Catholic Q&A 3

The old thread reached its maximum. I was going through it and found it very interesting, especially with KingKai joining in. The last post was from him

[quote]I understand what you are saying, Pat. You could say that, VERY broadly speaking, they are analogous - both discuss forgiveness of sins as it relates to one’s end time position.

However, you need more than a broadly analogous situation to demonstrate that the Scriptures actually provide evidence for a church practice. On all the particulars, they are different - 2 Maccabees presupposes an entirely different understanding of judgment, post-mortem existence, and the afterlife than Catholics hold.

If you will, would you explain to me the line of argumentation that would lead one to derive the notion of indulgences from 2 Maccabees?[/quote]

Very interesting stuff guys. I know we can all be civil and learn from each other.

Actually, there was a 'Catholic Q&A Resumes thread, where I answered KingKai and here is what I said:

Okay from the last thread that KingKai filled out:

I think what we have is a misunderstanding of what indulgences really are. It’s simply the notion that any punishment for sins can in turned be merited instead by prayer. All 2 Macc does is state that prayer for the dead has value for the souls of the dead. If The soul is in limbo, heaven or hell, no prayer can help and is there for not necessary. 1 Cor 3:11-15 is further evidence of post-mortem testing of one’s works. The idea is to fortify the works with prayer.
I personally don’t put much stock in them for it’s your relationship with the Lord that really counts. If you don’t have a good relationship with the Lord no amount of indulgences will save you.

How does one answer an ordinary working guy who asks…“Why doesn’t the Math add up if one
is sentenced to Hell for Trillions and Trillions of Years, and then some…for around 80 Years or so
years of a regular workin’ life of a nice guy who rarely ever did anything Bad, but wasn’t
a Christian?”
Good Question, 80 Years or so of Life…Then Death…then Trillions and Trillions of Years to Infinity of Hell?

I’m a relatively new Believer myself, but this question is VERY tough, and I converted holding my nose
because of all the Television Charlatans out there that give Christianity the worst name, yet
I converted anyway because Islam was out of the question, Mormonism doesn’t appeal, and
Buddha is just plain creepy.

Bruce Lee was an icon to Millions, another good guy, but according to the tenets of Christianity,
he goes to Hell for eternity in exchange for only 32 years of his life because he wasn’t Christian.

Just another example, I liked Bruce alot lol, anyway I CANNOT answer that main question,
Who can??

[quote]Karado wrote:
How does one answer an ordinary working guy who asks…“Why doesn’t the Math add up if one
is sentenced to Hell for Trillions and Trillions of Years, and then some…for around 80 Years or so
years of a regular workin’ life of a nice guy who rarely ever did anything Bad, but wasn’t
a Christian?”
Good Question, 80 Years or so of Life…Then Death…then Trillions and Trillions of Years to Infinity of Hell?

I’m a relatively new Believer myself, but this question is VERY tough, and I converted holding my nose
because of all the Television Charlatans out there that give Christianity the worst name, yet
I converted anyway because Islam was out of the question, Mormonism doesn’t appeal, and
Buddha is just plain creepy.

Bruce Lee was an icon to Millions, another good guy, but according to the tenets of Christianity,
he goes to Hell for eternity in exchange for only 32 years of his life because he wasn’t Christian.

Just another example, I liked Bruce alot lol, anyway I CANNOT answer that main question,
Who can??[/quote]

This is not the answer this question deserves, but I’d urge you to think about just what the afterlife is. We inhabit a physical reality. There is absolutely no way for us to even imagine existing in the absence of time. Yet, Heaven and Hell are necessarily metaphysical, and thereby exist outside of, or, perhaps, “above” time.

So, physically, we may spend 2 or 32 but usually not much more than 80 years here. Once you cross over to the other side, however, time itself ceases to exist, at least in the way we understand it existing here.

As far as the punishment fitting the crime, well, we are all offered the same option. The problem is not the amount of time we take to make the decision (to accept Christ), but if we say yes or not. In that sense, the decision, too, is made free of the constraints of time. Whether you decide to accept Christ at 5 or 105 isn’t really the issue. It’s that you DO freely accept him as your savior.

This “problem” stems from a lack of knowledge of who and what God is and the nature of sin in relation to Him. One single bite of fruit in defiance of His declared will was enough to plunge every last child of Adam into eternal perdition without a savior. One single act OR THOUGHT in want of conformity to the spotless holy will of almighty God is more than sufficient justification for eternal, endless, merciless and horrific torment.

To say nothing of years of such insolent rebellion. Once you get to know Him? This so called “problem” goes away. Fast. Seek Him and spend time in His Word. You’ll see. I know nothing about you and am for now taking your word that you’re a new believer. I was one too. I must confess though that what of your testimony you have thus far revealed is not all that encouraging.

I don’t think anyone will have a definite answers but I believe this is a very interesting question. Whenever you pass over to Heaven, are you the same person? For example, are you old when you go, are you a teen? Also, if you’re missing a hand or arm or leg, do you get that leg back when you get there? Also, if you are extremely obese and can barely move, do you lose all that weight and become healthy in Heaven? I think you guys get the point.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
How does one answer an ordinary working guy who asks…“Why doesn’t the Math add up if one
is sentenced to Hell for Trillions and Trillions of Years, and then some…for around 80 Years or so
years of a regular workin’ life of a nice guy who rarely ever did anything Bad, but wasn’t
a Christian?”
Good Question, 80 Years or so of Life…Then Death…then Trillions and Trillions of Years to Infinity of Hell?

I’m a relatively new Believer myself, but this question is VERY tough, and I converted holding my nose
because of all the Television Charlatans out there that give Christianity the worst name, yet
I converted anyway because Islam was out of the question, Mormonism doesn’t appeal, and
Buddha is just plain creepy.

Bruce Lee was an icon to Millions, another good guy, but according to the tenets of Christianity,
he goes to Hell for eternity in exchange for only 32 years of his life because he wasn’t Christian.

Just another example, I liked Bruce alot lol, anyway I CANNOT answer that main question,
Who can??[/quote]

This is not the answer this question deserves, but I’d urge you to think about just what the afterlife is. We inhabit a physical reality. There is absolutely no way for us to even imagine existing in the absence of time. Yet, Heaven and Hell are necessarily metaphysical, and thereby exist outside of, or, perhaps, “above” time.

So, physically, we may spend 2 or 32 but usually not much more than 80 years here. Once you cross over to the other side, however, time itself ceases to exist, at least in the way we understand it existing here.

As far as the punishment fitting the crime, well, we are all offered the same option. The problem is not the amount of time we take to make the decision (to accept Christ), but if we say yes or not. In that sense, the decision, too, is made free of the constraints of time. Whether you decide to accept Christ at 5 or 105 isn’t really the issue. It’s that you DO freely accept him as your savior.
[/quote]

Further, this whole notion that ‘According to Christianity he is going to hell’ is simply not true nor is it a Christian tenet. NO WHERE in the scriptures does it say such a thing. It does say God judges the heart and the deed. Anybody who claims to know God’s mind is a fool. Nobody knows anybody’s fate because they don’t know the mind of God and the purpose of that person in his plan.

You really have tow choices, to open your heart to God or to close it. What God does with an open heart is between that person and God.
Christians we believe, are blessed because we have the Word opened to us through Christ. Which also means we have a great responsibility to live it.

You have to go beyond what people say about it and see what it actually says.

[quote]stefan128 wrote:
I don’t think anyone will have a definite answers but I believe this is a very interesting question. Whenever you pass over to Heaven, are you the same person? For example, are you old when you go, are you a teen? Also, if you’re missing a hand or arm or leg, do you get that leg back when you get there? Also, if you are extremely obese and can barely move, do you lose all that weight and become healthy in Heaven? I think you guys get the point.
[/quote]

I let you know when I get there (hopefully), nobody really knows. But I seriously doubt you will be ‘clothed’ with an sick or broken body of some sort.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
How does one answer an ordinary working guy who asks…“Why doesn’t the Math add up if one
is sentenced to Hell for Trillions and Trillions of Years, and then some…for around 80 Years or so
years of a regular workin’ life of a nice guy who rarely ever did anything Bad, but wasn’t
a Christian?”
Good Question, 80 Years or so of Life…Then Death…then Trillions and Trillions of Years to Infinity of Hell?

I’m a relatively new Believer myself, but this question is VERY tough, and I converted holding my nose
because of all the Television Charlatans out there that give Christianity the worst name, yet
I converted anyway because Islam was out of the question, Mormonism doesn’t appeal, and
Buddha is just plain creepy.

Bruce Lee was an icon to Millions, another good guy, but according to the tenets of Christianity,
he goes to Hell for eternity in exchange for only 32 years of his life because he wasn’t Christian.

Just another example, I liked Bruce alot lol, anyway I CANNOT answer that main question,
Who can??[/quote]

This is not the answer this question deserves, but I’d urge you to think about just what the afterlife is. We inhabit a physical reality. There is absolutely no way for us to even imagine existing in the absence of time. Yet, Heaven and Hell are necessarily metaphysical, and thereby exist outside of, or, perhaps, “above” time.

So, physically, we may spend 2 or 32 but usually not much more than 80 years here. Once you cross over to the other side, however, time itself ceases to exist, at least in the way we understand it existing here.

As far as the punishment fitting the crime, well, we are all offered the same option. The problem is not the amount of time we take to make the decision (to accept Christ), but if we say yes or not. In that sense, the decision, too, is made free of the constraints of time. Whether you decide to accept Christ at 5 or 105 isn’t really the issue. It’s that you DO freely accept him as your savior.
[/quote]

Further, this whole notion that ‘According to Christianity he is going to hell’ is simply not true nor is it a Christian tenet. NO WHERE in the scriptures does it say such a thing. It does say God judges the heart and the deed. Anybody who claims to know God’s mind is a fool. Nobody knows anybody’s fate because they don’t know the mind of God and the purpose of that person in his plan.

You really have tow choices, to open your heart to God or to close it. What God does with an open heart is between that person and God.
Christians we believe, are blessed because we have the Word opened to us through Christ. Which also means we have a great responsibility to live it.

You have to go beyond what people say about it and see what it actually says.
[/quote]

Pat, you aren’t denying the reality of eternal punishment, are you? That would be a biblically indefensible position. You are simply saying that we cannot know who will or will not receive such a punishment, right?

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
How does one answer an ordinary working guy who asks…“Why doesn’t the Math add up if one
is sentenced to Hell for Trillions and Trillions of Years, and then some…for around 80 Years or so
years of a regular workin’ life of a nice guy who rarely ever did anything Bad, but wasn’t
a Christian?”
Good Question, 80 Years or so of Life…Then Death…then Trillions and Trillions of Years to Infinity of Hell?

I’m a relatively new Believer myself, but this question is VERY tough, and I converted holding my nose
because of all the Television Charlatans out there that give Christianity the worst name, yet
I converted anyway because Islam was out of the question, Mormonism doesn’t appeal, and
Buddha is just plain creepy.

Bruce Lee was an icon to Millions, another good guy, but according to the tenets of Christianity,
he goes to Hell for eternity in exchange for only 32 years of his life because he wasn’t Christian.

Just another example, I liked Bruce alot lol, anyway I CANNOT answer that main question,
Who can??[/quote]

This is not the answer this question deserves, but I’d urge you to think about just what the afterlife is. We inhabit a physical reality. There is absolutely no way for us to even imagine existing in the absence of time. Yet, Heaven and Hell are necessarily metaphysical, and thereby exist outside of, or, perhaps, “above” time.

So, physically, we may spend 2 or 32 but usually not much more than 80 years here. Once you cross over to the other side, however, time itself ceases to exist, at least in the way we understand it existing here.

As far as the punishment fitting the crime, well, we are all offered the same option. The problem is not the amount of time we take to make the decision (to accept Christ), but if we say yes or not. In that sense, the decision, too, is made free of the constraints of time. Whether you decide to accept Christ at 5 or 105 isn’t really the issue. It’s that you DO freely accept him as your savior.
[/quote]

Further, this whole notion that ‘According to Christianity he is going to hell’ is simply not true nor is it a Christian tenet. NO WHERE in the scriptures does it say such a thing. It does say God judges the heart and the deed. Anybody who claims to know God’s mind is a fool. Nobody knows anybody’s fate because they don’t know the mind of God and the purpose of that person in his plan.

You really have tow choices, to open your heart to God or to close it. What God does with an open heart is between that person and God.
Christians we believe, are blessed because we have the Word opened to us through Christ. Which also means we have a great responsibility to live it.

You have to go beyond what people say about it and see what it actually says.
[/quote]

Pat, you aren’t denying the reality of eternal punishment, are you? That would be a biblically indefensible position. You are simply saying that we cannot know who will or will not receive such a punishment, right?[/quote]

Your second question is correct. We don’t know who is damned or who is saved. I certainly do NOT deny the reality of eternal punishment. I didn’t mean to come across that way, only that we, the people don’t know the mind of God and he reason and purpose for each person, or their eventual end. I am admonishing those who pretend to know. Those who use the scriptures to overstep their bounds. Not only do they over step their bounds but they do harm to God and his people by trying to play God in their judgement of what they think, God thinks.

[quote]stefan128 wrote:
I don’t think anyone will have a definite answers but I believe this is a very interesting question. Whenever you pass over to Heaven, are you the same person? For example, are you old when you go, are you a teen? Also, if you’re missing a hand or arm or leg, do you get that leg back when you get there? Also, if you are extremely obese and can barely move, do you lose all that weight and become healthy in Heaven? I think you guys get the point.
[/quote]

To an extent. Our bodies will be transfigured. And, so they will be wholesome. What that means I’m not sure.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This “problem” stems from a lack of knowledge of who and what God is and the nature of sin in relation to Him. One single bite of fruit in defiance of His declared will was enough to plunge every last child of Adam into eternal perdition without a savior. One single act OR THOUGHT in want of conformity to the spotless holy will of almighty God is more than sufficient justification for eternal, endless, merciless and horrific torment.

To say nothing of years of such insolent rebellion. Once you get to know Him? This so called “problem” goes away. Fast. Seek Him and spend time in His Word. You’ll see. I know nothing about you and am for now taking your word that you’re a new believer. I was one too. I must confess though that what of your testimony you have thus far revealed is not all that encouraging. [/quote]

Don’t you mean work out your salvation in fear and trembling? I didn’t know everyone turned to Mother Teresa and John Paul the Great once they became saints. Everyone (hyperbole) has to go through the crucible in carrying their cross daily and conforming themselves to Christ.

To the point of the above poster, if one is in hell it is only by their rejection of God. And, not merely what is seen from the outside. Job was outside of the Covenant with the Jews and a Gentile and he was still seen as righteous in the eyes of the Lord and Jews a like, even though Jews would be led to believe that he was outside the covenant, God’s mercy is great and therefore we can’t say if an individual is in hell.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This “problem” stems from a lack of knowledge of who and what God is and the nature of sin in relation to Him. One single bite of fruit in defiance of His declared will was enough to plunge every last child of Adam into eternal perdition without a savior. One single act OR THOUGHT in want of conformity to the spotless holy will of almighty God is more than sufficient justification for eternal, endless, merciless and horrific torment.

To say nothing of years of such insolent rebellion. Once you get to know Him? This so called “problem” goes away. Fast. Seek Him and spend time in His Word. You’ll see. I know nothing about you and am for now taking your word that you’re a new believer. I was one too. I must confess though that what of your testimony you have thus far revealed is not all that encouraging. [/quote]Don’t you mean work out your salvation in fear and trembling? >>>[/quote]That is the doctrine of perseverance/preservation. A glorious truth, but I was discussing sin. (hamartiology) [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I didn’t know everyone turned to Mother Teresa and John Paul the Great once they became saints. >>>[/quote]This is a nonsensical statement. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Everyone (hyperbole) has to go through the crucible in carrying their cross daily and conforming themselves to Christ. >>>[/quote]Indeed Chris. All of the elect do this and all the non elect don’t. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< To the point of the above poster, if one is in hell it is only by their rejection of God. >>>[/quote]If one is in hell ti is because the atoning blood of Jesus Christ has not been applied to them by grace trough faith and they are hence unequipped to work their own salvation in fear and trembling which all of the elect do. Oh yeah. Already said that. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< And, not merely what is seen from the outside. >>>[/quote]Of course. Moralistic “good works” save no one. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Job was outside of the Covenant with the Jews >>>[/quote]There was no covenant with the Jews when Job lived and every principle applied to Abraham and all the other old testament saints are quite rightly applicable to him by clear and sound implication. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< God’s mercy is great >>>[/quote]Ohhhh how true this is dearest Christopher.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< and therefore we can’t say if an individual is in hell.[/quote] We can be pretty certain in a very large % of cases. Maybe YOU can’t, but it’s pretty elementary, scripturally speaking.

My thoughts also turn to the Japanese People, one imagines Hell will be crowded with them
because their Country is 98% Buddhist and Shinto…virtually NO Christians in Japan.
IDK Man…somthin’s up and I cannot understand that the Japanese are all DOOMED,
wow, I’m trying to understand the ‘my way or the highway’ tenet of Christianity on that one,
Why doesn’t Japan get completely flushed down the toilet then and their Country just
SINK into the Pacific if they are of no use to Humanity in any spiritual way?
One could mention Islamic Countries as well, but there ARE a good number of Christians
in those regions.

[quote]Karado wrote:
My thoughts also turn to the Japanese People, one imagines Hell will be crowded with them
because their Country is 98% Buddhist and Shinto…virtually NO Christians in Japan.
IDK Man…somthin’s up and I cannot understand that the Japanese are all DOOMED,
wow, I’m trying to understand the ‘my way or the highway’ tenet of Christianity on that one,
Why doesn’t Japan get completely flushed down the toilet then and their Country just
SINK into the Pacific if they are of no use to Humanity in any spiritual way?
One could mention Islamic Countries as well, but there ARE a good number of Christians
in those regions.
[/quote]EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is of use to God. Or… they couldn’t be. I’ve been over this a thousand times. NOBODY has a right to salvation. The fact that God saves ANYBODY is mercy unthinkable once you understand His holiness and our sinfulness. There will be not one syllable of protest at the judgement. Everybody will know why they are damned. Read the first chapter of Romans. And chapter 10 verses 8-14 I think. It’s simple everybody knowes, everybody;s justly damned and God in His gracious lovingkindness save some of them. If he damned us all He would be absolutely good and right to do so.

Hey folks. I have a question that I used to talk about with an old theologian friend of mine, and sparing you the finer points of our conversations I’ll put it to you:

Can the insane go to hell? By insane I mean people with impaired ability to differentiate between right and wrong.

IDK…Insane peeps are saved I guess, that’s seems like an “easy pass to heaven” like the aborted
who were born into this world, but never got to experience a lifetime here.
Complicated stuff man, don’t twist my brain like that lol.

[quote]Karado wrote:
My thoughts also turn to the Japanese People, one imagines Hell will be crowded with them
because their Country is 98% Buddhist and Shinto…virtually NO Christians in Japan.
IDK Man…somthin’s up and I cannot understand that the Japanese are all DOOMED,
wow, I’m trying to understand the ‘my way or the highway’ tenet of Christianity on that one,
Why doesn’t Japan get completely flushed down the toilet then and their Country just
SINK into the Pacific if they are of no use to Humanity in any spiritual way?
One could mention Islamic Countries as well, but there ARE a good number of Christians
in those regions.
[/quote]

Why does somebody always feel the need to jump in out of the blue, and be snide and sarcastic? Why can’t we shake things up a bit and have a reasoned discussion without the bullshit?

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
Hey folks. I have a question that I used to talk about with an old theologian friend of mine, and sparing you the finer points of our conversations I’ll put it to you:

Can the insane go to hell? By insane I mean people with impaired ability to differentiate between right and wrong. [/quote]

Are you really asking or are you being sarcastic? It’s hard to tell in text sometimes.
For the record, man does not set the rules or boundaries of the saved or the damned. I’ll give my opinion if you are asking in good faith.

“Why does somebody always feel the need to jump in out of the blue, and be snide and sarcastic? Why can’t we shake things up a bit and have a reasoned discussion without the bullshit?”

In other words: “Karado we don’t want to be challenged with the tough questions about the
hard to crack and virtually impossible to convert Japanese, give me the easy stuff to talk about”.