[quote]kamui wrote:
“Les enfants voles du franquisme” (the stolen children of Francoism)[/quote]
I just want to get the facts strait here…
Children were ‘stolen’ in (only)Spain
It was a policy of the fascist Franco dictatorship
Doctors, nurses, the government and priests and nuns were all involved.
Because an unknown number priests and nuns were (allegedly) involved, the whole Catholic Church did it and nobody else.
You’re only mad at the church, everybody else gets a pass.
Child trafficking is happening at an alarming rate right now, nobody seems bothered by that
Child pornography is at an all time high, no big deal.
1.2 million kids are murdered by abortion every year, no problem.
I think I get the picture.
[/quote]
And the world goes merrily on, unaided by anyone with a moral compass.
[/quote]
So, you include yourself in that grouping, I believe that is the definition of hypercritical. Nevertheless, your statement is not true. The last three issues that Pat brings up in his post has a ministry, connected to the Church, that help fight against that evil. I have not dealt with child trafficking, except as it is connected to the porn industry.
I also do not believe that when Pat says nobody seems bothered by that, he is meaning the same thing as you in your statement, “unaided by anyone with a moral compass.” I think he is referring to those who have shown objection in this thread, but pointed all blame to the Catholic Church, but have not equally objected to other major players. And, that there are other equal and greater evils that they do not object to.
Further, you will probably not like this, but no one believes your Satanist diatribe.
[quote]kamui wrote:
“Les enfants voles du franquisme” (the stolen children of Francoism)[/quote]
I just want to get the facts strait here…
Children were ‘stolen’ in (only)Spain
It was a policy of the fascist Franco dictatorship
Doctors, nurses, the government and priests and nuns were all involved.
Because an unknown number priests and nuns were (allegedly) involved, the whole Catholic Church did it and nobody else.
You’re only mad at the church, everybody else gets a pass.
Child trafficking is happening at an alarming rate right now, nobody seems bothered by that
Child pornography is at an all time high, no big deal.
1.2 million kids are murdered by abortion every year, no problem.
I think I get the picture.
[/quote]
You missed the WHOLE point. My POINT was NOT that it happened during Franco’s regime. My point was NOT that more than priests and nuns were involved, but also doctors and other hospital staff. My point had nothing to do with child trafficking, pornography or abortion.
Here is my point: TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.
I also mentioned in my post, that if the RCC ever did that to MY family and had information that could lead me to be reconnected and refused to share it, that I would have my own personal “inquisition” with those involved (something the RCC knows ALL about, yes?).
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
We know the Catholic Church hides it’s pedophiles, but it’s not like they steal BABIES or anything. Oh, wait…
A 50 year old scandal that the church is STILL covering up! The Catholic Church STOLE over 300,000 babies[/quote]
The article says up to 300,000 not over. According to kamui’s reference, numbers are around 30,000 but the documentary states that the numbers may be underestimated, as they do not have the documentation to give an actual number and maybe up to 300,000. I’d be interested how they got that number.
Actually, it was because they had the sickness of marxism and Franco didn’t want Spain infected with Marxism. They usually were unmarried though, which makes sense as they are marxist.
Yes, Franco definitely wanted Spain to live by the dictates of the Catholic Church and was willing to go against the Church’s teachings in order to implement the rest. It seems that your article points that out when he figured out that just plainly taking away children from fascists, democrats, marxists, republicans, &c. and giving them Catholics would not go over well politically. Probably didn’t go over well with Catholics. Seems a few of them spilled the beans on their deathbeds.
I’m not sure what vows those are, your article doesn’t mention anything about these vows.
You won’t like this, but this situation is very believable. Man is inclined towards evil. But, nevertheless, fiending outrage will not correct the situation.
This position is very understandable, I do not think I would go so far as cutting off fingers.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.[/quote]
I understand you are frustrated, I am equally frustrated. However, I have a few questions.
What records are you talking about, your dailymail article says nothing about records, except forged documents. I am assuming this is birth certificates. Why is it undisputed? They do not have the records, so how do we know that all these women who believe their babies were stolen are facts?
I’m guessing you’re not using the proper definition of inquisition. Because, I am not understanding the sentences above. I’ve been to an inquisition and it is basically a court hearing.
[quote]kamui wrote:
“Les enfants voles du franquisme” (the stolen children of Francoism)[/quote]
I just want to get the facts strait here…
Children were ‘stolen’ in (only)Spain
It was a policy of the fascist Franco dictatorship
Doctors, nurses, the government and priests and nuns were all involved.
Because an unknown number priests and nuns were (allegedly) involved, the whole Catholic Church did it and nobody else.
You’re only mad at the church, everybody else gets a pass.
Child trafficking is happening at an alarming rate right now, nobody seems bothered by that
Child pornography is at an all time high, no big deal.
1.2 million kids are murdered by abortion every year, no problem.
I think I get the picture.
[/quote]
You missed the WHOLE point. My POINT was NOT that it happened during Franco’s regime. My point was NOT that more than priests and nuns were involved, but also doctors and other hospital staff. My point had nothing to do with child trafficking, pornography or abortion.
Here is my point: TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.
I also mentioned in my post, that if the RCC ever did that to MY family and had information that could lead me to be reconnected and refused to share it, that I would have my own personal “inquisition” with those involved (something the RCC knows ALL about, yes?).[/quote]
Where in the article does it say that the Catholic Church has the records that could connect the dots and refused to share them? I read the article along with several other and there was no mention of that. The church does not keep birth records, the state does that.
There is a singular nun who refused to testify and I say shame on her, but records, no mention.
I think you just hate Catholics and were looking for a pedestal on which to express that extreme anger.
If this were church policy it would happen world wide. This was a government thing that some clergy participated in. The article however, is short facts. How many? Who? If you can identify the victims you should be able to identify the players.
[quote]kamui wrote:
“Les enfants voles du franquisme” (the stolen children of Francoism)[/quote]
I just want to get the facts strait here…
Children were ‘stolen’ in (only)Spain
It was a policy of the fascist Franco dictatorship
Doctors, nurses, the government and priests and nuns were all involved.
Because an unknown number priests and nuns were (allegedly) involved, the whole Catholic Church did it and nobody else.
You’re only mad at the church, everybody else gets a pass.
Child trafficking is happening at an alarming rate right now, nobody seems bothered by that
Child pornography is at an all time high, no big deal.
1.2 million kids are murdered by abortion every year, no problem.
I think I get the picture.
[/quote]
You missed the WHOLE point. My POINT was NOT that it happened during Franco’s regime. My point was NOT that more than priests and nuns were involved, but also doctors and other hospital staff. My point had nothing to do with child trafficking, pornography or abortion.
Here is my point: TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.
I also mentioned in my post, that if the RCC ever did that to MY family and had information that could lead me to be reconnected and refused to share it, that I would have my own personal “inquisition” with those involved (something the RCC knows ALL about, yes?).[/quote]
Where in the article does it say that the Catholic Church has the records that could connect the dots and refused to share them? I read the article along with several other and there was no mention of that. The church does not keep birth records, the state does that.
There is a singular nun who refused to testify and I say shame on her, but records, no mention.
I think you just hate Catholics and were looking for a pedestal on which to express that extreme anger.
If this were church policy it would happen world wide. This was a government thing that some clergy participated in. The article however, is short facts. How many? Who? If you can identify the victims you should be able to identify the players.
[/quote]
Here ya go. Here’s a few excerpts from this article:
“More than 1,000 people have gone to court hoping to track down sons and daughters or brothers and sisters they were told died in childbirth.”
–
The system outlived Franco’s death in 1975 and continued at least through the 1980s. Some estimates put the total as high as 300,000 stolen babies.
The guiding principle was that the child would be better off raised by an affluent, conservative and devout Catholic family, who would also pay up to $25,000 at today’s rates.
“To steal a baby you needed a doctor willing to do it, and also a nun,” Junquera says. “They were acting like they were gods, deciding who deserved a child and who didn’t.”
–
Interviewed on the TV documentary Devolvedme A Mi Hijo (Give Me Back My Child), Garcia Veiga denied that babies were forcibly taken from their mothers. She said she was bound by an oath and could not hand over medical records that could help one woman trace her biological mother to help treat a rare hereditary disease.
“I cannot reveal anything,” she said in the documentary produced last year. “We cannot break a pact made with the mother even for health reasons.”
–
Here’s the article where it says the nun refuses to testify:
Here’s an excerpt from this one:
She claims that when she went to deliver her baby girl, she was anesthetized and slept through the whole delivery. When she woke, Torres says, she was told that her baby had died. Refusing to believe this news, Torres says she snuck out of her room and saw the newborn girl sleeping in the nursery. According to Torres, when she demanded her baby, Sister Maria Gomez threatened her.
â??She said either you shut up, and don’t ask any more questions, or I’ll take both your children from you and you’ll go to jail,â?? Torres said. â??Blackmail.â??
Through associates at the convent where Valbuena resides, the nun declined Rock Centerâ??s repeated requests to take part in an interview in which she could address these allegations.
For the record, I don’t hate CATHOLICS. That would be a pretty substantial part of the worlds population, most of whom I’ve never met and have no cause to hate them. I DO, however, hate hypocrisy. And when organizations, religions and governments who are supposed to be powerful instruments of GOOD do BAD things and cover it up, lie about it and deny victims justice, I enjoy exposing them for what they are: HYPOCRITES.
Also, I’m not buying your argument saying, "it was just in Spain, it doesn’t represent the REAL Catholic church. That’s like saying if a US soldier in Afghanistan shoots up a village, “it was JUST a soldier, not the US Army” - how do you think the WORLD will view it? Every action BY members representing an organization reflect on that organization as a whole. So if the RCC stops covering up for it’s pedophile priests and owns up to stealing kids in Spain and took a proactive approach by turning over people that COMMIT CRIMES to the police and helping the victims gain closure using all of their power and intent (at LEAST the same amount of effort that was expended in covering it up), then MAYBE it wouldn’t get my blood boiling and motivate me to write “bad things” about your precious church.
Personally, I don’t see how any “sane” person could reconcile having to use such a corrupt institution as their “intermediary” with God. I mean, these priests you give confession to diddle choir boys! And not just one or two… AND THEN TRANSFER THE PRIEST TO ANOTHER CHURCH WHEN HE GETS CAUGHT TO DIDDLE MORE BOYS. I mean honestly, how do you reconcile that in your little brain?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.[/quote]
I understand you are frustrated, I am equally frustrated. However, I have a few questions.
What records are you talking about, your dailymail article says nothing about records, except forged documents. I am assuming this is birth certificates. Why is it undisputed? They do not have the records, so how do we know that all these women who believe their babies were stolen are facts?
I’m guessing you’re not using the proper definition of inquisition. Because, I am not understanding the sentences above. I’ve been to an inquisition and it is basically a court hearing. [/quote]
I linked the sources of information in my reply to Pat.
As for your thoughts that I may have used the word “inquisition” improperly, I think I’m right on. Go ahead and google “inquisition”. The first FIVE hits refer to the context for which I was using the word. I know, I know, you like to use the strategy of “play dumb” on the internet sometimes (which is almost as annoying as straw-men, ad hominem attacks and red herrings), but can you just skip that here? Please? Especially over the closing part of my post not even related to the “meat”. Leave the bullshit tactics and stick to the issues.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.[/quote]
I understand you are frustrated, I am equally frustrated. However, I have a few questions.
What records are you talking about, your dailymail article says nothing about records, except forged documents. I am assuming this is birth certificates. Why is it undisputed? They do not have the records, so how do we know that all these women who believe their babies were stolen are facts?
I’m guessing you’re not using the proper definition of inquisition. Because, I am not understanding the sentences above. I’ve been to an inquisition and it is basically a court hearing. [/quote]
I linked the sources of information in my reply to Pat.
As for your thoughts that I may have used the word “inquisition” improperly, I think I’m right on. Go ahead and google “inquisition”. The first FIVE hits refer to the context for which I was using the word. I know, I know, you like to use the strategy of “play dumb” on the internet sometimes (which is almost as annoying as straw-men, ad hominem attacks and red herrings), but can you just skip that here? Please? Especially over the closing part of my post not even related to the “meat”. Leave the bullshit tactics and stick to the issues.[/quote]
Thank you for the sources. I’m looking over them now. To the other, I sent an e-mail.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
For the record, I don’t hate CATHOLICS. That would be a pretty substantial part of the worlds population, most of whom I’ve never met and have no cause to hate them. I DO, however, hate hypocrisy. And when organizations, religions and governments who are supposed to be powerful instruments of GOOD do BAD things and cover it up, lie about it and deny victims justice, I enjoy exposing them for what they are: HYPOCRITES.[/quote]
We enjoy the same things then. It is actually called a Spiritual Act of Mercy, rebuking the sinner. I have no issue here.
It does represent the real Catholic Church. St. Peter cut off a man’s ear, Judas was a traitor, St. Paul killed Christians, Vlad the Impaler was a Catholic, half the Cabinet who has been responsible for the deaths of 100’s of innocent people this year are Catholic. How many Catholics have supported abortion is this country alone?
I know the Mexican Mafia (one of the most dangerous entities in Arizona) is headed by Catholics, I’ve seen them in the pews on Sunday in Tuscon. This is what the Catholic Church is made up of, sinners: thieves, robbers, killers, drug dealers, abortionists, rapists. It is not wrong to rebuke these men and women. It is good and I applaud you for your efforts. However, it is a far cry to say that they represent what being a faithful Catholic means. Even the Saints have tarnished backgrounds.
The same way, and I don’t blame them. I understand their point of view, I have held it and hold it. However, if I was a soldier, I would gladly say, they do not represent us all, and they do not represent what it means to follow the Army’s code of conduct.
Most don’t, but those that do or have will either have their justice here or in the next life. I hope sooner than later.
I hope, as you do, that they do. However, you may not like this next part. The vows you are talking about look like a medical oath, in which they pledge to keep medical records private for the sake of the patient. If this is the case, I’m not sure what can be done, I hope something can be done. But, if it is like America nurses cannot just hand over medical records even if they want to.
They may have to take a legal route to obtain those records, (and I hope they do). I’m not aware of the medical field in Spain, so someone else will have to speak on that, but from your sources it seems that the government does not want to get involved in this, which is a tragedy for sure. Justice should not be reserved for those who did things after Franco’s reign.
They have, of course, speaking for myself I do not feel as there has been enough done in this area. I applaud their efforts so far, but much needs to be done to move forward to exact justice.
If you’re waiting for those in the Church (meaning baptized Catholics) to become perfect before your blood stops boiling, you’ll be waiting a long time. It is a hard fact that I question a lot, but I have to realize that the Catholic Church has never stated its members are perfect, it attests to the opposite that we are sinners, the worst kind, as we know better.
Thankfully, the sacraments are not based on the priest’s personal holiness. More thankfully, such incidents are almost nil in America today when it comes to the priesthood. And, it was only a small minority in the past fifty years that committed such heinous crimes. I have no mercy for an unrepentant sinner. I do not believe God has any either.
[quote]kamui wrote:
“Les enfants voles du franquisme” (the stolen children of Francoism)[/quote]
I just want to get the facts strait here…
Children were ‘stolen’ in (only)Spain
It was a policy of the fascist Franco dictatorship
Doctors, nurses, the government and priests and nuns were all involved.
Because an unknown number priests and nuns were (allegedly) involved, the whole Catholic Church did it and nobody else.
You’re only mad at the church, everybody else gets a pass.
Child trafficking is happening at an alarming rate right now, nobody seems bothered by that
Child pornography is at an all time high, no big deal.
1.2 million kids are murdered by abortion every year, no problem.
I think I get the picture.
[/quote]
You missed the WHOLE point. My POINT was NOT that it happened during Franco’s regime. My point was NOT that more than priests and nuns were involved, but also doctors and other hospital staff. My point had nothing to do with child trafficking, pornography or abortion.
Here is my point: TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.
I also mentioned in my post, that if the RCC ever did that to MY family and had information that could lead me to be reconnected and refused to share it, that I would have my own personal “inquisition” with those involved (something the RCC knows ALL about, yes?).[/quote]
Where in the article does it say that the Catholic Church has the records that could connect the dots and refused to share them? I read the article along with several other and there was no mention of that. The church does not keep birth records, the state does that.
There is a singular nun who refused to testify and I say shame on her, but records, no mention.
I think you just hate Catholics and were looking for a pedestal on which to express that extreme anger.
If this were church policy it would happen world wide. This was a government thing that some clergy participated in. The article however, is short facts. How many? Who? If you can identify the victims you should be able to identify the players.
[/quote]
Here ya go. Here’s a few excerpts from this article:
“More than 1,000 people have gone to court hoping to track down sons and daughters or brothers and sisters they were told died in childbirth.”
–
The system outlived Franco’s death in 1975 and continued at least through the 1980s. Some estimates put the total as high as 300,000 stolen babies.
The guiding principle was that the child would be better off raised by an affluent, conservative and devout Catholic family, who would also pay up to $25,000 at today’s rates.
“To steal a baby you needed a doctor willing to do it, and also a nun,” Junquera says. “They were acting like they were gods, deciding who deserved a child and who didn’t.”
–
Interviewed on the TV documentary Devolvedme A Mi Hijo (Give Me Back My Child), Garcia Veiga denied that babies were forcibly taken from their mothers. She said she was bound by an oath and could not hand over medical records that could help one woman trace her biological mother to help treat a rare hereditary disease.
“I cannot reveal anything,” she said in the documentary produced last year. “We cannot break a pact made with the mother even for health reasons.”
–
Here’s the article where it says the nun refuses to testify:
Here’s an excerpt from this one:
She claims that when she went to deliver her baby girl, she was anesthetized and slept through the whole delivery. When she woke, Torres says, she was told that her baby had died. Refusing to believe this news, Torres says she snuck out of her room and saw the newborn girl sleeping in the nursery. According to Torres, when she demanded her baby, Sister Maria Gomez threatened her.
â??She said either you shut up, and don’t ask any more questions, or I’ll take both your children from you and you’ll go to jail,â?? Torres said. â??Blackmail.â??
Through associates at the convent where Valbuena resides, the nun declined Rock Centerâ??s repeated requests to take part in an interview in which she could address these allegations.
For the record, I don’t hate CATHOLICS. That would be a pretty substantial part of the worlds population, most of whom I’ve never met and have no cause to hate them. I DO, however, hate hypocrisy. And when organizations, religions and governments who are supposed to be powerful instruments of GOOD do BAD things and cover it up, lie about it and deny victims justice, I enjoy exposing them for what they are: HYPOCRITES.
Also, I’m not buying your argument saying, "it was just in Spain, it doesn’t represent the REAL Catholic church. That’s like saying if a US soldier in Afghanistan shoots up a village, “it was JUST a soldier, not the US Army” - how do you think the WORLD will view it? Every action BY members representing an organization reflect on that organization as a whole. So if the RCC stops covering up for it’s pedophile priests and owns up to stealing kids in Spain and took a proactive approach by turning over people that COMMIT CRIMES to the police and helping the victims gain closure using all of their power and intent (at LEAST the same amount of effort that was expended in covering it up), then MAYBE it wouldn’t get my blood boiling and motivate me to write “bad things” about your precious church.
Personally, I don’t see how any “sane” person could reconcile having to use such a corrupt institution as their “intermediary” with God. I mean, these priests you give confession to diddle choir boys! And not just one or two… AND THEN TRANSFER THE PRIEST TO ANOTHER CHURCH WHEN HE GETS CAUGHT TO DIDDLE MORE BOYS. I mean honestly, how do you reconcile that in your little brain?
[/quote]
None of what you posted shows that “the church” is hide and refusing to reveal them. There is a single nun refusing to testify.
If you hate hypocrisy so much, then the list is never ending people in institutions who do bad shit. In fact, this whole idea is hypocritical if you so worried about hypocrisy. How come you don’t care about all the other people and institutions who are trafficking children right now? Where’s your out rage at them?
How does this action in Spain, who does have the records and have been less than forth coming, not give you the same outrage at the doctors? Or doctors in general? Hell, I have had more then my share of experience with Drs and most of them, I find are arrogant, and useless assholes.
How do we reconcile the pedophilia cases? We don’t, they were humiliating for all of us, but my faith isn’t based in man. If it were I wouldn’t have any like most people here. But there is more to the story as well, there are mostly good people who do amazing things in the church, but nobody pays them any mind. Dirt is funner to read than good news. I mean really what more fun, that the church opened up an AIDS treatment center in Africa, or pedophilia?
How do you reconcile that all the pedo’s are gone, at least everybody who was known, and yet pedophilia is at an all time high? That child pornography is everywhere? That these creeps can be living right next door to you, but your worried about something that happened under a facist dictatorship 50 years ago?
If you are really worried about stolen children, there is a lot you can do. There are organizations who are doing a lot of work to stem and stop child trafficking. You can join one ans help.
Your postings are based on hatred of the Church, make no mistake, not out of deep concerned for the kids or your altruistic desire to rid the world of hypocrites. It’s okay, we’re used to it.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Personally, I don’t see how any “sane” person could reconcile having to use such a corrupt institution as their “intermediary” with God. I mean, these priests you give confession to diddle choir boys! And not just one or two… AND THEN TRANSFER THE PRIEST TO ANOTHER CHURCH WHEN HE GETS CAUGHT TO DIDDLE MORE BOYS. I mean honestly, how do you reconcile that in your little brain?
[/quote]
Exactly. There are a few of them who are good but most are genuinely scum. The CC covered this up for decades and now they are being exposed for what they are.
No wonder America is turning into an atheist country. Americans are mostly decent people and want nothing to do with a mystical version of NAMBLA.
If you want to add more fuel to this fire, the RCC had a long tradition of force-baptizing Jewish children, then taking away the children from their parents because they didn’t want the parents corrupting them.
The last one (aside from WWII) was Edgardo Levi Mortara — a maid, pissed off at her Jewish employers, allegedly baptized Edgardo, then the Pope himself saw to the theft of the child.
On the bright side, the kidnapping so repulsed most people that it started the break up of the Papal States.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
TODAY in 2012, the Catholic Church has RECORDS of which babies were stolen and to whom they were sold. There are people who are still alive from that time that participated in the theft of the children and who are familiar with the records and may remember details of some of the cases. My POINT is that instead of cooperating with victims and victims families about an UNDISPUTED FACT of history that the RCC is in a unique position to facilitate, they are stonewalling, hiding and pretending it didn’t happen. Or they are hiding behind “vows”.[/quote]
I understand you are frustrated, I am equally frustrated. However, I have a few questions.
What records are you talking about, your dailymail article says nothing about records, except forged documents. I am assuming this is birth certificates. Why is it undisputed? They do not have the records, so how do we know that all these women who believe their babies were stolen are facts?
I’m guessing you’re not using the proper definition of inquisition. Because, I am not understanding the sentences above. I’ve been to an inquisition and it is basically a court hearing. [/quote]
I linked the sources of information in my reply to Pat.
As for your thoughts that I may have used the word “inquisition” improperly, I think I’m right on. Go ahead and google “inquisition”. The first FIVE hits refer to the context for which I was using the word. I know, I know, you like to use the strategy of “play dumb” on the internet sometimes (which is almost as annoying as straw-men, ad hominem attacks and red herrings), but can you just skip that here? Please? Especially over the closing part of my post not even related to the “meat”. Leave the bullshit tactics and stick to the issues.[/quote]
Thank you for the sources. I’m looking over them now. To the other, I sent an e-mail. [/quote]
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< No wonder America is turning into an atheist country. Americans are mostly decent people and want nothing to do with a mystical version of NAMBLA.
[/quote]There are far more “decent” people in the CC than in the country at large though that ain’t sayin much and you and I will certainly disagree about the definition of decent. The NAMBLA comment is outrageous, inflammatory, irresponsible AND false. Once again, nobody hates the Catholic church more than I do, but over the top statements like this are not useful at all. Our Christmas service is this Sunday. You’ll love it.