T Nation

Catholic Church and Gays

The letter of the Apostle Paul to “To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints” (Romans) 1:18-32 ESV

[quote]18-For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19-For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20-For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21-For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22-Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23-and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24-Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25-because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26-For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27-and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28-And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29-They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30-slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31-foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32-Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.[/quote]

The actual term used is natural function, which is making babies. So in your opinion are sterile men allowed to be gay? What about infertile women? They essentially don’t have this “natural function” and therefore can’t sin by abandoning it.
Also, do you believe that priests, who, by way of their vows, abandon “natural function”, are sinning in the same way that gays do? What about women who focus on their careers?

Look pal. You don’t have first flickering clue what your talkin about, but believe whatever you want. “Natural relations” or “according to nature” is directly contrasted with men consumed with passion for and committing “aschemosune” ( clearly sexual lewd indecent) acts with one another. There is no mention of the absence of reproductive potential. Do yourself a favor and give up biblical scholarship as a Google hobby. It’s embarrassing.

Is that personal attack your way of saying that you can’t answer my questions? They’re quite simple. And how is two women having sex any more lewd than a man and a woman having sex?

[quote]Alex Good wrote:
Is that personal attack your way of saying that you can’t answer my questions? They’re quite simple. And how is two women having sex any more lewd than a man and a woman having sex?[/quote]

Where did you do your Greek and Hebrew study, Alex?

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Alex Good wrote:
Is that personal attack your way of saying that you can’t answer my questions? They’re quite simple. And how is two women having sex any more lewd than a man and a woman having sex?[/quote]

Where did you do your Greek and Hebrew study, Alex?
[/quote]

The college of internet translators. I went to several to make sure I was worthy of my degree. Where’d you do yours?

[quote]Alex Good wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Alex Good wrote:
Is that personal attack your way of saying that you can’t answer my questions? They’re quite simple. And how is two women having sex any more lewd than a man and a woman having sex?[/quote]

Where did you do your Greek and Hebrew study, Alex?
[/quote]

The college of internet translators. I went to several to make sure I was worthy of my degree. Where’d you do yours?[/quote]

Wheaton Graduate School. M.A. in Biblical Exegesis

Oh. Care to do a direct translation of the passage for us then?

ομοιως τε και οι αρρενες αφεντες την φυσικην χρησιν της θηλειας εξεκαυθησαν εν τη ορεξει αυτων εις αλληλους αρσενες εν αρσεσιν την ασχημοσυνην κατεργαζομενοι και την αντιμισθιαν ην εδει της πλανης αυτων εν εαυτοις απολαμβανοντες

Err… I guess greek letters aren’t supported.

[quote]Alex Good wrote:

Mistranslation.

[/quote]

Really? A ‘mistranslation’ that was only discovered in 1980 by a homosexual academic(John Boswell.) How terribly clever and disinterested of him.

[quote]Alex Good wrote:
Oh. Care to do a direct translation of the passage for us then?

ομοιως τε και οι αρρενες αφεντες την φυσικην χρησιν της θηλειας εξεκαυθησαν εν τη ορεξει αυτων εις αλληλους αρσενες εν αρσεσιν την ασχημοσυνην κατεργαζομενοι και την αντιμισθιαν ην εδει της πλανης αυτων εν εαυτοις απολαμβανοντες[/quote]

Type it in English letters. Here’s the equivalency chart:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?redirect=true

[quote]Alex Good wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:<<< I am sure most of this stuff goes on secretly in the church >>>[/quote]No you’re not and neither am I. I’m not talking about secrets and unofficial individual views. I wanna know where I point somebody were I a Catholic, to find THE authoritative statement of Rome on homosexualITY. NOT gay marriage. NOT gay rights. Where is THE authoritative declaration of the “one true holy apostolic church which is THE body and bride of Christ” in whose care the incarnate Son of God left ALL things pertaining to life and godliness? Where? Maybe there is one. I’m asking.

I know the bible’s view, which couldn’t possibly be clearer to those who actually take it seriously. Headhunter’s bigotry against both gays and Catholics is grounded in nothing other than Headhunter’s bigotry against gays and Catholics.[/quote]

Mistranslation. The bible condemns “bed-men” which could just as easily mean promiscuous or lazy men. Which means gay guys who sit around all day are bad, gay guys who have sex with many partners are bad but just plain monogamous hard working gay guys are perfectly alright.
This also means that lazy and slutty straight men are in trouble which means I’m gonna burn. That’s right, I’m more likely to go to hell than a gay guy.[/quote]

As SexMachine pointed out, this is NOT a mistranslation. “Bed-Men” is a mistranslation, premised on the foolish notion that the meaning of a word can be derived from its root. USAGE IN CONTEXT determines word meaning, and in the other occurrences of that particular word, it always indicates same-sex sexual relations.

[quote]Alex Good wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Alex Good wrote:
Is that personal attack your way of saying that you can’t answer my questions? They’re quite simple. And how is two women having sex any more lewd than a man and a woman having sex?[/quote]

Where did you do your Greek and Hebrew study, Alex?
[/quote]

The college of internet translators. I went to several to make sure I was worthy of my degree. Where’d you do yours?[/quote]KingKai is a thousand times better than I am, but I do have some years aunder my belt and some exegetical skills to show for it. The point is you’re just wrong. Doesn’t mean you’re an idiot, you’re just in an area you know nothing about. I gave you an answer, but I suspect KK’s will be better. Usually is. (except when he disagrees with me =] )

Blegh, not worth the effort. And mistranslations occur quite frequently when you try to streamline text.

“Voulez vous couchez avec mois, ce soir?” is directly translated as “Want you sleep with me this night?” but everyone translates it as “Would you like to sleep with me tonight?”.

That’s just an example. The reality is our attempts to make translations a more enjoyable read often obscure the meaning of the text. I found this so annoying that I painstakingly translated the entire text of Beowulf to make sure that the story was portrayed in other translations properly. Of course I then went and got the pages soaking wet. Worst waste of a week ever.

That makes you a profound scholar of high French and still lost when it comes to the biblical texts. There are reasons that they are translated as they are. Men who revere them as the Word of God who would rather die than misrepresent what they say, have given their lives to the most faithful translation possible. You may think they’re nuts believing the writings to be from the Lord, but that’s not the point is it? THEY believe they are and act accordingly. I happen to know the date that KK graduated and have seen pictures of his class and hence that he is telling the truth. Just forget the bible man. Wadda you care what abuncha dusty ol manuscripts say anyway? Leave it to the bigoted fruitcakes to go around making fools of themselves quoting a first century Jew turned Christian telling people that same sex anything romantic or sexual is a perversion and worthy of death.

Actually I just know french. Profound scholar is taking that a bit far. Also Beowulf was written in Old English and I translated it through cross referencing various texts to find matching words. Basically I rosetta stoned it. It might have actually been easier to just learn the language.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/common_ground_homosexuality_and_the_church?id=4692434&pageNo=0 makes me miss Elder Forlife. [/quote]

I don’t get it?[/quote]That’s a thread. Don’t play dumb, I’ve seen you in some. You remember dear Elder Forlife I hope. He’s gay. Ex Mormon. Was married with kids. You remember. He’s been in threads too. I was lookin around and saw that one. It made me miss the guy. That’s where you haven’t seen somebody in a while who’s company you enjoy. What else can I help you with Chris =]

Oh yeah. So what does your church do if two men or women show up arm in arm heralding their arrival as God’s will for the parish? What is the procedure by which the body is kept pure?[/quote]

Telling them to stop yelling in the chapel since a holy silence is supposed to be practiced in such places (or maybe drawing and quartering…again I’m slightly confused when you use such lofty language) I suppose, I’m not sure what procedure you’re looking for and what it is supposed to do when you say, “by which the body is kept pure?”

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/common_ground_homosexuality_and_the_church?id=4692434&pageNo=0 makes me miss Elder Forlife. [/quote]

I don’t get it?[/quote]That’s a thread. Don’t play dumb, I’ve seen you in some. You remember dear Elder Forlife I hope. He’s gay. Ex Mormon. Was married with kids. You remember. He’s been in threads too. I was lookin around and saw that one. It made me miss the guy. That’s where you haven’t seen somebody in a while who’s company you enjoy. What else can I help you with Chris =]

Oh yeah. So what does your church do if two men or women show up arm in arm heralding their arrival as God’s will for the parish? What is the procedure by which the body is kept pure?[/quote]

By which the body is kept pure? Draw and quartering I suppose, I’m not sure what procedure you’re looking for and what it is supposed to do when you say, “by which the body is kept pure?”[/quote]
The 5th chapter of Paul’s 1st letter to the church at Corinth comes to mind. That’s where you actually DO what the scriptures say. PRAISE GOD!!!, we’re on a roll!! What Else? Come on. I can’t wait to help ya with sumthin else now Chris.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/common_ground_homosexuality_and_the_church?id=4692434&pageNo=0 makes me miss Elder Forlife. [/quote]

I don’t get it?[/quote]That’s a thread. Don’t play dumb, I’ve seen you in some. You remember dear Elder Forlife I hope. He’s gay. Ex Mormon. Was married with kids. You remember. He’s been in threads too. I was lookin around and saw that one. It made me miss the guy. That’s where you haven’t seen somebody in a while who’s company you enjoy. What else can I help you with Chris =]

Oh yeah. So what does your church do if two men or women show up arm in arm heralding their arrival as God’s will for the parish? What is the procedure by which the body is kept pure?[/quote]

By which the body is kept pure? Draw and quartering I suppose, I’m not sure what procedure you’re looking for and what it is supposed to do when you say, “by which the body is kept pure?”[/quote]
The 5th chapter of Paul’s 1st letter to the church at Corinth comes to mind. That’s where you actually DO what the scriptures say. PRAISE GOD!!!, we’re on a roll!! What Else? Come on. I can’t wait to help ya with sumthin else now Chris.[/quote]

So, you’re purposefully being vague? Glad, I wasn’t disappointed in my ability to comprehend clear and concise English. Listen, I’m a business guy. You gotta shoot it to me straight, I can’t keep up with this vague allusions to stuff. You want to bring my attention to something please make it so I don’t have to guess so much.

You can’t read the 5th chapter of 1st Corinthians? One of the most ignored passages and principles in all the bible. Non existent in Catholicism (practically) and barely a gurgle in protestant churches either.