Castro's Net Worth

pookie · July 30, 2007, 8:52pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Given that they have the second worst economy in the world and they are able to trade freely with the rest of the world it becomes obvious the should be doing better.[/quote]

Where do you get that they have the 2nd worst economy in the world?

By GDP, Cuba ranks 87th out of 226 ranked countries; in GDP per capita, they rank 116th. Not an economic powerhouse by a long shot, but certainly better than over a hundred countries that rank lower.

North Korea is not dead last either.

Neuromancer · July 30, 2007, 9:04pm

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Given that they have the second worst economy in the world and they are able to trade freely with the rest of the world it becomes obvious the should be doing better.

Where do you get that they have the 2nd worst economy in the world?

By GDP, Cuba ranks 87th out of 226 ranked countries; in GDP per capita, they rank 116th. Not an economic powerhouse by a long shot, but certainly better than over a hundred countries that rank lower.

North Korea is not dead last either.
[/quote]

I forget who said “There are lies,dammed lies,and statistics”

But boy was he spot on!

There’s probably some kind of stat out there that can be used to support almost any conclusion regarding any economy.All one has to after finding it,is lean back and just watch as intellectual lazyness and prejudice do the rest…

Zap_Branigan · July 30, 2007, 9:13pm

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Given that they have the second worst economy in the world and they are able to trade freely with the rest of the world it becomes obvious the should be doing better.

Where do you get that they have the 2nd worst economy in the world?

By GDP, Cuba ranks 87th out of 226 ranked countries; in GDP per capita, they rank 116th. Not an economic powerhouse by a long shot, but certainly better than over a hundred countries that rank lower.

North Korea is not dead last either.
[/quote]

I took it from HH’s original post. There may be some worse backwater nations. No question Cuba is underperforming.

pookie · July 30, 2007, 9:22pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
There’s probably some kind of stat out there that can be used to support almost any conclusion regarding any economy.All one has to after finding it,is lean back and just watch as intellectual lazyness and prejudice do the rest…[/quote]

There has a be a marker, or better, many markers taken together that can be used to compare economies between countries. On every list I managed to find where countries are listed according to some economic criteria, Cuba is pretty much always around the middle somewhere.

So, are all these lists worthless simply because they don’t support the US propaganda that Cuba is an evil shithole?

If all the facts available disagree with one’s opinion, shouldn’t the opinion be revised and not the facts dismissed en masse?

entheogens · July 30, 2007, 9:23pm

Quote from Michael Moore:

<<As for Cuba, yes, when Iï¿½??ve got a film crew there, theyï¿½??re going to show us their best. But thereï¿½??s a reason the World Health Organization ranks their health-care system [among] the best in the Third World and that people from Latin America come there for their health care. Thereï¿½??s also a reason Cubans live on average a month longer than we do. Iï¿½??m not trumpeting Castro or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, ï¿½??Cï¿½??mon, weï¿½??re the United States! If they can do this, we can do it.ï¿½?ï¿½ >>

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1622178-1,00.html

pookie · July 30, 2007, 9:30pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Given that they have the second worst economy in the world and they are able to trade freely with the rest of the world it becomes obvious the should be doing better.

Where do you get that they have the 2nd worst economy in the world?

By GDP, Cuba ranks 87th out of 226 ranked countries; in GDP per capita, they rank 116th. Not an economic powerhouse by a long shot, but certainly better than over a hundred countries that rank lower.

North Korea is not dead last either.

I took it from HH’s original post. There may be some worse backwater nations. No question Cuba is underperforming.[/quote]

It’s not in the article, it’s from HH personal commentary. I wouldn’t presume to tell you where to get your facts from, but Headhunter ranks pretty fucking far down the list in Objective and Accurate News Source. Pinocchio ranks higher, to give you an idea.

pat · July 30, 2007, 9:36pm

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Yes, your love affair with Castro is pathetic. He is one of the most indefensable person to have lived in the last 50 years, yet here you go defending him. Why? I guess 'cause he hates america so he must not be that bad.

I don’t care about Castro. But if something is baseless or is basically a lie, I’ll still question it, whether or not it concerns someone I like or not. It’s called integrity, motherfucker.

If you call Hitler a pedophile, I’ll question your sources. That doesn’t mean I like Hitler, motherfucker, simply that I care about the truth. Even if I don’t like someone, and there’s plenty of people I dislike, I won’t blindly buy anything negative that’s said about them.

Integrity. Look it up sometime, motherfucker.

[/quote]

Well I’ll be a motherfucker!

Neuromancer · July 30, 2007, 9:37pm

[quote]pookie wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
There’s probably some kind of stat out there that can be used to support almost any conclusion regarding any economy.All one has to after finding it,is lean back and just watch as intellectual lazyness and prejudice do the rest…

There has a be a marker, or better, many markers taken together that can be used to compare economies between countries. On every list I managed to find where countries are listed according to some economic criteria, Cuba is pretty much always around the middle somewhere.

So, are all these lists worthless simply because they don’t support the US propaganda that Cuba is an evil shithole?

If all the facts available disagree with one’s opinion, shouldn’t the opinion be revised and not the facts dismissed en masse?
[/quote]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.Yours weren’t the stats I was referring to…

And there’s nothing evil about Cuba.Poor,economically crippled,yes.

But evil?Just because there was a social experiment that failed,doesn’t make them evil.
And of course,there’s also the argument of just what a complete fuckwit Fulgencio Batista was.The revolution in Cuba was inevitable.I personally believe that Castro was,in those early years,a true believer in what communism could have done for Cuba.
And I admired that.

Headhunter · July 31, 2007, 1:13am

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Given that they have the second worst economy in the world and they are able to trade freely with the rest of the world it becomes obvious the should be doing better.

Where do you get that they have the 2nd worst economy in the world?

By GDP, Cuba ranks 87th out of 226 ranked countries; in GDP per capita, they rank 116th. Not an economic powerhouse by a long shot, but certainly better than over a hundred countries that rank lower.

North Korea is not dead last either.

I took it from HH’s original post. There may be some worse backwater nations. No question Cuba is underperforming.

It’s not in the article, it’s from HH personal commentary. I wouldn’t presume to tell you where to get your facts from, but Headhunter ranks pretty fucking far down the list in Objective and Accurate News Source. Pinocchio ranks higher, to give you an idea.

[/quote]

Forbes ranked Cuba 2nd worst in the world for economic activity and how friendly the government is to business. North Korea is the worst. You can simply Google ‘Castro’s net worth’, if you want.

I wonder if, when flying over Cuba, there are any lights on the ground — you know, how South Korea is all lit up and North Korea is dark, except at maybe Pyongyang.

I’m worse than Pinocchio? Oh, that’s really hitting below the belt, Pookie!! Okay…your ‘thing’ doesn’t grow when you lie, it shrinks.

Junior High is now dismissed.

Moriarty · July 31, 2007, 3:15am

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Given that they have the second worst economy in the world and they are able to trade freely with the rest of the world it becomes obvious the should be doing better.
[/quote]

That’s not entirely true Zap.

The Helms-Burton act punishes foreign countries that do business with Cuba but not allowing them to do business with us.

“Sanctions may also be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This restriction also applies to maritime shipping, as ships docking at Cuban ports are not allowed to dock at U.S. ports for six months.”

We’ve taken measures to limit their ability to freely trade with the rest of the world.

lixy · July 31, 2007, 3:36am

It shouldn’t be surprising that Forbes would try to depict communist countries as the worst ever. Believe it or not, propaganda isn’t the prerogative of communist states. Although more subtle and sinuous, It’s alive and kicking in the US as well.

Cuban economy was never shining. Before the revolution, the US owned more than half of the island’s companies in core economical sectors. The US was buying around 95% of the sugar of Cuba. Things started deteriorating rapidly when the US tightened its embargo after the fall of the USSR. In a matter of months, things went from moderately bad to catastrophic.

I really don’t understand how the people of the United States can condone such immoral acts. Yeah, you have the right to trade with whomever you want, but making the Cubans suffer because hell because you don’t share the same ideology of their leaders is scandalous.

And HH, you should really open a book of logic some time. Err…scratch that, you need to apply it. Pat is a lost cause I guess. I mean, just because Pookie takes the time to point out the blatant flaw in an argument bashing Castro, doesn’t mean he’s in love with the guy. A 10-year old can understand that.

Headhunter · July 31, 2007, 12:50pm

[quote]lixy wrote:
I really don’t understand how the people of the United States can condone such immoral acts. Yeah, you have the right to trade with whomever you want, but making the Cubans suffer because hell because you don’t share the same ideology of their leaders is scandalous.

And HH, you should really open a book of logic some time. Err…scratch that, you need to apply it. Pat is a lost cause I guess. I mean, just because Pookie takes the time to point out the blatant flaw in an argument bashing Castro, doesn’t mean he’s in love with the guy. A 10-year old can understand that.[/quote]

Castro confiscated US investments when he took over. The standard procedure is to embargo. Sadly, for the people of Cuba, he didn’t get a visit from the USMC. They would have fought their own liberators anyway, kind of like in the Middle East…

Book of logic? I teach mathematics, dude. And you want to tell me there’s no connection between the leaders living like princes and the common people having minimal health care (and just about minimal everything)? Yeah.

pookie · July 31, 2007, 3:11pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Forbes ranked Cuba 2nd worst in the world for economic activity and how friendly the government is to business. North Korea is the worst. You can simply Google ‘Castro’s net worth’, if you want.[/quote]

Forbes? Are they now some kind of neutral economic authority? 2nd worst on what list? “Forbes’ List of Countries We Don’t Like”?

I took your advice and Googled. I found a few articles. Here are excerpts, with interesting parts bolded:

[i]…

For its part, Forbes cites unnamed former Cuban officials who “insist Castro, who travels exclusively in a fleet of black Mercedes, has skimmed profits” from a network of state-owned companies for years. These, according to the article, include the Havana Convention Center, the Cimex retail corporation and a top-of-the-line pharmaceutical company that exports vaccines.

To estimate Castroï¿½??s net worth, the magazine used “a discounted cash flow method to value these companies and then assume a portion of that profit stream goes to Castro.”

The magazine added it has heard rumors Castro has salted away a percentage of these companies’ profits over the years in Swiss bank accounts, although it offered no proof of these secret stashes.

…

In the case of Castro, says Forbes, wealth comes from his position of power. “And the lines often blur between what is owned by the country and what is owned by the individual,” claims Forbes. The article admits however, that “these estimates are more art than science.”

Thatï¿½??s why Castro appears as wealthier than Queen Elizabeth. In her case, Forbes decided not to count Buckingham Palace or the crown jewels as personal possessions but as belongings of the British nation.

Furthermore, the information provided on Castroï¿½??s wealth is notably skimpy compared with the amount of information Forbes provides for the others on this list.

…

Describing the article as pandering to the CIA and the Bush Administration, Soberon alleged the profits from the companies referred to go right back into the islandï¿½??s economy and into Cubaï¿½??s free health and education systems, as well as for science, security, and defense.

As further proof of Castroï¿½??s disinterest in wealth and material possessions, City of Havana historian Eusebio Leal said that between 1991 and 1995 ï¿½?? the height of the islandï¿½??s economic crisis ï¿½?? he was given the job of distributing more than 11,000 gifts the Head of State had received from 133 countries. These ranged, he said, from paintings, jewels, ivory, valuable tapestries, furniture and rugs to antique weapons and clothes.

Leal reported distributing many of the gifts to museums and cultural centers across the island, while clothing went to old age homes run by the state and by the church. In all cases, according to Leal, Castro insisted he not be cited as the source of these donations.

…[/i]

Forbes uses unnamed sources, estimates, assumptions and rumors to arrive at its conclusion, while being unable to offer any proof. You read that and immediately accept it as the Gospel Truth?

Forbes assume that Fidel owns Cuba and ranks his worth accordingly. Oddly, they don’t use the same method for Queen Elizabeth… why are US allies evaluated using a more reasonable method?

You already know what you want to believe - whether it’s true or not, as long as it lets you feel smug - and you simply accept anything that bolsters it while rejecting and attacking anything not supporting your apriori made-up mind.

pookie · July 31, 2007, 3:30pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Castro confiscated US investments when he took over. The standard procedure is to embargo. Sadly, for the people of Cuba, he didn’t get a visit from the USMC. They would have fought their own liberators anyway, kind of like in the Middle East…

Book of logic? I teach mathematics, dude. And you want to tell me there’s no connection between the leaders living like princes and the common people having minimal health care (and just about minimal everything)? Yeah.[/quote]

The embargo is an important factor in keeping the people in “minimal everything” and has no effect whatsoever on Castro himself. It’s probably helpful to him to have you participate in keeping the Cubans down, so they don’t revolt and overthrow him.

You’re really showing him!

lixy · July 31, 2007, 3:36pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Book of logic? I teach mathematics, dude. [/quote]

I know that. That’s the reason I emphasized applying logic as opposed to just reading books.

No.

You tried to discredit Moore’s film based on nothing more than a speculative net worth figure quoted a magazine. That’s what was questioned.

Headhunter · July 31, 2007, 4:58pm

[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Forbes ranked Cuba 2nd worst in the world for economic activity and how friendly the government is to business. North Korea is the worst. You can simply Google ‘Castro’s net worth’, if you want.

Forbes? Are they now some kind of neutral economic authority? 2nd worst on what list? “Forbes’ List of Countries We Don’t Like”?

I took your advice and Googled. I found a few articles. Here are excerpts, with interesting parts bolded:

[i]…

For its part, Forbes cites unnamed former Cuban officials who “insist Castro, who travels exclusively in a fleet of black Mercedes, has skimmed profits” from a network of state-owned companies for years. These, according to the article, include the Havana Convention Center, the Cimex retail corporation and a top-of-the-line pharmaceutical company that exports vaccines.

To estimate Castroï¿½??s net worth, the magazine used “a discounted cash flow method to value these companies and then assume a portion of that profit stream goes to Castro.”

The magazine added it has heard rumors Castro has salted away a percentage of these companies’ profits over the years in Swiss bank accounts, although it offered no proof of these secret stashes.

…

In the case of Castro, says Forbes, wealth comes from his position of power. “And the lines often blur between what is owned by the country and what is owned by the individual,” claims Forbes. The article admits however, that “these estimates are more art than science.”

Thatï¿½??s why Castro appears as wealthier than Queen Elizabeth. In her case, Forbes decided not to count Buckingham Palace or the crown jewels as personal possessions but as belongings of the British nation.

Furthermore, the information provided on Castroï¿½??s wealth is notably skimpy compared with the amount of information Forbes provides for the others on this list.

…

Describing the article as pandering to the CIA and the Bush Administration, Soberon alleged the profits from the companies referred to go right back into the islandï¿½??s economy and into Cubaï¿½??s free health and education systems, as well as for science, security, and defense.

As further proof of Castroï¿½??s disinterest in wealth and material possessions, City of Havana historian Eusebio Leal said that between 1991 and 1995 ï¿½?? the height of the islandï¿½??s economic crisis ï¿½?? he was given the job of distributing more than 11,000 gifts the Head of State had received from 133 countries. These ranged, he said, from paintings, jewels, ivory, valuable tapestries, furniture and rugs to antique weapons and clothes.

Leal reported distributing many of the gifts to museums and cultural centers across the island, while clothing went to old age homes run by the state and by the church. In all cases, according to Leal, Castro insisted he not be cited as the source of these donations.

…[/i]

Forbes uses unnamed sources, estimates, assumptions and rumors to arrive at its conclusion, while being unable to offer any proof. You read that and immediately accept it as the Gospel Truth?

Forbes assume that Fidel owns Cuba and ranks his worth accordingly. Oddly, they don’t use the same method for Queen Elizabeth… why are US allies evaluated using a more reasonable method?

You already know what you want to believe - whether it’s true or not, as long as it lets you feel smug - and you simply accept anything that bolsters it while rejecting and attacking anything not supporting your apriori made-up mind.
[/quote]

Thank you for making my case for me. Everything you said was good confirmation.

And, I don’t think the Queen can use the jewels or Buckingham Palace quite in the way that El Presidente can use the assets of the people of Cuba.

Hmmm…dictator lives in luxury…people live like shit…yup, I sure apriori made up my mind. LOL!!

UB07 · July 31, 2007, 5:52pm

Forbes magazine is in the business of selling…MAGAZINES! they probably arent too reserved about twisting the numbers up a bit to sell more copies

entheogens · July 31, 2007, 9:04pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Castro confiscated US investments when he took over. The standard procedure is to embargo. Sadly, for the people of Cuba, he didn’t get a visit from the USMC. They would have fought their own liberators anyway, kind of like in the Middle East…
[/quote]

Yeah, and the US “confiscated” Cuba from Spain, well, de facto anyway through the Platt Amendment. Castro appealed to the United States to stop backing Battista. At that time there was a Communist Party in Cuba…but Castro did not even belong to it. Che Guevara was a marxist at the time of the revolution, I believe that Castro was not.

And, by the way, I dont know what the status is now, but the Cuban people supported the revolution and, of course, the US did try to send in “liberators”…they got their asses kicked BIG TIME. After backing the attempted coup, the US whined because Cuba turned towards the Soviet Union for more and more defense help. In the era of the Cold War, what else could be expected?

Headhunter · July 31, 2007, 11:06pm

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Castro confiscated US investments when he took over. The standard procedure is to embargo. Sadly, for the people of Cuba, he didn’t get a visit from the USMC. They would have fought their own liberators anyway, kind of like in the Middle East…

Yeah, and the US “confiscated” Cuba from Spain, well, de facto anyway through the Platt Amendment. Castro appealed to the United States to stop backing Battista. At that time there was a Communist Party in Cuba…but Castro did not even belong to it. Che Guevara was a marxist at the time of the revolution, I believe that Castro was not.

And, by the way, I dont know what the status is now, but the Cuban people supported the revolution and, of course, the US did try to send in “liberators”…they got their asses kicked BIG TIME. After backing the attempted coup, the US whined because Cuba turned towards the Soviet Union for more and more defense help. In the era of the Cold War, what else could be expected?

[/quote]

Spain treated Cubans pretty badly. Such was overdramatized by the newspapers in the USA, to inspire the SA War. No argument there.

No US troops were at the Bay of Pigs btw. If they had been, Cuba would now be a free country. Bummer!!

It usually takes savages a long time to realize that capitalism and free enterprise are GOOD things. This suffering that the people go through now may inspire them to rebel eventually and adopt capitalism, like in eastern Europe. Let’s hope so.

pat · August 1, 2007, 3:46pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
pookie wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
There’s probably some kind of stat out there that can be used to support almost any conclusion regarding any economy.All one has to after finding it,is lean back and just watch as intellectual lazyness and prejudice do the rest…

There has a be a marker, or better, many markers taken together that can be used to compare economies between countries. On every list I managed to find where countries are listed according to some economic criteria, Cuba is pretty much always around the middle somewhere.

So, are all these lists worthless simply because they don’t support the US propaganda that Cuba is an evil shithole?

If all the facts available disagree with one’s opinion, shouldn’t the opinion be revised and not the facts dismissed en masse?

I agree with you wholeheartedly.Yours weren’t the stats I was referring to…

And there’s nothing evil about Cuba.Poor,economically crippled,yes.

But evil?Just because there was a social experiment that failed,doesn’t make them evil.
And of course,there’s also the argument of just what a complete fuckwit Fulgencio Batista was.The revolution in Cuba was inevitable.I personally believe that Castro was,in those early years,a true believer in what communism could have done for Cuba.
And I admired that.

[/quote]

So the thousands of people tortued and murdered by the Castro regime is not evil? A country raped econimically for the sole pupose of huberis is not evil? What then, would be considered evil?