T Nation

Casein Hydrolysate Digestion Speed


#1

I'm just interested in why you guys think casein hydrolysate is the fastest digesting protein?


#2

I was going to sarcastically say 'because it is'? However, I just thought that both hydroslates were of the same digestion speed, and casein was just preferred due to the higher insulin response.

Doing some quick searching, I found one study in humans confirming what I thought (linked) but if somebody could prove me wrong I would gladly accept it.

May I ask why you are asking the question? Found any evidence to suggest otherwise?


#3

Well i was reading that exact study, and I was kind of confused as to why people on here were stating casein hydrolysate was faster than whey....when that study shows whey and CH empty at similar rates...

as far as insulin response...insulin by itself isn't anabolic in the normal physiological range....hyperaminoacidemia is what triggers muscle protein synthesis...specifically, leucine...

whey has the highest concentration of leucine, and it appears to digest at a similar rate to casein hydrolysate...so, I'm genuinely confused as to why people think otherwise...


#4

the more relevant question i think is, Is Casein hydrolysate too fast?


#5

In regards to your points, remember that were are on T-Nation. MAG-10 is spiked with leucine (with addresses one of your concerns) and casein protein does stimulate insulin to a greater degree than whey, and this carries over to the hydroslates. I do not know what the threshold for 'normal physiological range' is, but a casein hydroslate + leucine infusion may come close to exceeding it (as far as supplementation goes).

And it's not like insulin is only about protein synthesis; I've had success spiking insulin for the purpose of carbohydrate oxidation and performance. :slight_smile:

There may be other factors outside of insulin and digestive uptake though, of these I do not know off the top of my head.


#6

well i'm not trying to discredit MAG-10...I never tried the product, so i can't comment on it...I'm talking about CH...and specifically peptopro really...

i tried searching the archives...someone brought up the fact that peptpro is extensively broken down into di and tri peptides and that is the reason why it is faster...so, it is possible the study above did not use a casein hydrolysate that had a high concentration of di and tri peptides...

i would have to look into that...if anybody has info on that, i would appreciate if you posted what you know...


#7

D public means that insulin can by itself be anabolic however that is only in pharmacologically induced situations roughly 1000 times normal levels. No supplement on earth except a syringe of insulin will do that


#8

yeah i just read the full text...the hydrolysates had an average chain length of 3.8...which suggest that there is not a high concentration of di and tri peptides present...so, it hasn't been broken down enough to be compared to pepto pro...

di and tri peptides have their own transporter in the gut, and past studies have shown that di and tri peptides have faster absorption than free form aminos....

Still...i would really like to see peptopro vs whey in an absorption study just to see what kind of difference there is...


#9

Thanks for the clarification.


#10

MAG-10 is made by makers of peptopro but is higher quality.


#11

very interesting study...this one uses CH made by DSM, so i assume it is peptopro...although, maybe it's not...

the two biggest factors in terms of stimulating muscle protein synthesis seem to be leucine concentration and speed of absorbtion...basically creating a high concentration of leucine in the blood...

this study also shows CH and whey absorbed at similar rates so that confirms my earlier beliefs...although, CH was slightly faster, and it did lead to higher insulin response...however, it is non significant to me...


#12

MAG-10 is spiked with leucine? Anyone have a clue with approximately how much?


#13

Probably 5g or so per scoop... just a shot in the dark.


#14

About 10.6g of peptopro is 10g of protein which is in Mag-10. That leaves the other 11g to be split between leucine and citrulline. We can really only speculate how much of each. TNation has posted an article stating 6g citrulline pre workout increased performance and a typical leucine dose is 5g, but no idea if either of those are relevant, especially when the Anaconda protocols are recommending 3+ scoops of Mag-10/Anaconda. But that also makes me wonder things like how much are in Workout Fuel and how much beta alanine are in there if we are getting some already from the protein.


#15

that is probably proprietary info, and I believe they've added other aminos besides leucine...i doubt they will disclose that...

Layne Norton wrote an article titled "Optimal Protein Intake And Meal Frequency To Support Maximal Protein Synthesis and Muscle Mass"

He theorized that .05g leucine/kg of bw will max out protein synthesis...this was based off what occured in studies done by tipton where subjects showed no further response when they increased the leucine dose to 8g vs 4.4g...and then he compared it to another study where 2.6g of leucine resulted in similar results to the 4.4g....

so, 5g of leucine should be sufficent for most people which is what is found in 50g of whey protein...


#16

5g of leucine would max out protein synthesis, but at what point and for how long?

With an example of say Mag10, you are sipping it, not downing it. So could it be assumed that you are maxing protein synthesis for an extended duration then? Or would the 5g max protein synthesis for say an hour or so?


#17

well layne's research suggests that there is a refractory response to elevated amino acid levels...

what happened was leucine remained elevated, yet muscle protein synthesis was not prolonged by the elevated leucine(this also happened in other studies)...

he predicted it may have something to do with insulin signaling as the insulin elevations mirrored the muscle protein synthesis response...I believe one of the Biotest scientists came to same conclusion...