T Nation

Casein Hydro - Overrated?

As a firm believer in hydrolysed casein and whey products, I was somewhat disturbed to read some very robust criticism of the substance from Mr Protein himself Lyle McDonald. Apparently amino uptake is actually greater post-workout using standard slow release casein, while the hydro version is also more likely to be used for energy.

IMO it’s too expensive for what it is. After I finish the last of my HC i’ll be going back to whey. AFAIK very little research has been done on HC. It’s not affordable long term, for me at least.

Did these studies – I’m assuming he’s going off studies – include a source of carbohydrates with each protein?

I’m betting no. Had they, I’m betting it’s a different ballgame.

Your body doesn’t like to convert protein to energy, and I highly doubt it would go through the process while having simultaneously having carbohydrates available for energy. I could see, though, in the absence of of carbohydrates, your body converting casein hydro first simply on the quick rate of absorption. Higher levels of amino acids in the bloodstream quicker might possibly mean it’s more convenient for your body to siphon some off for energy, which could be less likely with a slower absorbed protein source.

Again, betting, but with casein hydro plus carbohydrates everything is quick, spiked, and synthesized.

But, really, I have no idea. I just know I like the stuff.

(All of the above is internal bro dialog.)

from Claessens et al: Metabolic effect of protein hydrosylates

Intact protein v. protein hydrolysate

A fast vegetable (soya protein [isolate]) and a fast animal protein (whey protein [isolate]) were studied. We expected for both proteins that protein hydrolysates would induce faster insulin and glucagon responses than intact protein, because di- and tri-peptides are efficiently taken up and further hydrolysed into free amino acids by enterocytes. Calbet & Holst reported more rapid increases in plasma amino acid concentrations after ingestion of hydrolysates. Energy density, rather than solute osmolality, affects gastric emptying. Although we did not measure plasma amino acid profiles, this would suggest that the gastric emptying rate for an intact protein and protein hydrolysate at similar protein dose should be similar…

In contrast to our hypothesis, SPI induced a faster increase in both insulin and glucagon, which resulted in significantly higher total AUC* after SPI than SPH. However, the size of the difference between SPI and SPH is small and is unlikely to be of physiological significance. In the case of whey protein, no significant difference in insulin or glucagon response, expressed as total AUC, was found…

Although we do not have a clear explanation for the more rapid response in SPI compared with SPH it could be that soya protein is metabolised in a different way from whey protein. It has been reported that the biological value of soya protein is inferior to that of casein… The protein quality is thought to be dependent on the degree and velocity by which the protein is digested, absorbed as amino acids, and retained in the gut as newly synthesised protein. SPI seems to be ingested and absorbed by the splanchnic area rapidly and also degraded rapidly in the liver into urea, resulting in reduced uptake by the peripheral tissues (like skeletal muscle). It is possible that consumption of partly hydrolysed soya protein results in an even faster absorption of free amino acids and in an even more reduced uptake by peripheral organs. When amino acids are rapidly removed from circulation, their insulin- and glucagon-stimulating capacity might be reduced. Although this hypothesis should be studied more carefully, this might explain why for soya protein the intact form induced faster insulin and glucagon responses than its hydrolysed form.

*Area Under Curve

emphasis mine. not conclusive by any length, but seems in line with the OP

When utilising hydrolysed casein and a fast acting carb drink for pre/during workout I definitely felt an increase in recovery and also energy in the gym. Take that for what it’s worth but I feel that it’s worth it and will continue as long as it’s affordable to me. I use 20-25grams of CH and 50-100grams of carbs from fruit juices and dextrose together with 7-10 grams leucine.

Pre+Intra workout shake

20-25g casein hdyro
100g carb source
10g glycerol
5g creatine
10g leucine

Yes it makes a difference

[quote]SBT wrote:
Did these studies – I’m assuming he’s going off studies – include a source of carbohydrates with each protein?

I’m betting no. Had they, I’m betting it’s a different ballgame.

Your body doesn’t like to convert protein to energy, and I highly doubt it would go through the process while having simultaneously having carbohydrates available for energy. I could see, though, in the absence of of carbohydrates, your body converting casein hydro first simply on the quick rate of absorption. Higher levels of amino acids in the bloodstream quicker might possibly mean it’s more convenient for your body to siphon some off for energy, which could be less likely with a slower absorbed protein source.

Again, betting, but with casein hydro plus carbohydrates everything is quick, spiked, and synthesized.

But, really, I have no idea. I just know I like the stuff.

(All of the above is internal bro dialog.)[/quote]

None of his studies, unless the post has been updated recently, include blends or carbohydrates. I.E. They’re nearly useless for discussions of muscle protein synthesis relevant to this forum’s goals.

[quote]zraw wrote:
Pre+Intra workout shake

20-25g casein hdyro
100g carb source
10g glycerol
5g creatine
10g leucine

Yes it makes a difference[/quote]

^ A physique worth listening to.

(I just keep it simple with Anaconda.)

[quote]Cr Powerlinate wrote:

[quote]SBT wrote:
Did these studies – I’m assuming he’s going off studies – include a source of carbohydrates with each protein?

I’m betting no. Had they, I’m betting it’s a different ballgame.

Your body doesn’t like to convert protein to energy, and I highly doubt it would go through the process while having simultaneously having carbohydrates available for energy. I could see, though, in the absence of of carbohydrates, your body converting casein hydro first simply on the quick rate of absorption. Higher levels of amino acids in the bloodstream quicker might possibly mean it’s more convenient for your body to siphon some off for energy, which could be less likely with a slower absorbed protein source.

Again, betting, but with casein hydro plus carbohydrates everything is quick, spiked, and synthesized.

But, really, I have no idea. I just know I like the stuff.

(All of the above is internal bro dialog.)[/quote]

None of his studies, unless the post has been updated recently, include blends or carbohydrates. I.E. They’re nearly useless for discussions of muscle protein synthesis relevant to this forum’s goals.[/quote]

Thanks for confirming what I figured.

I know what the studies say, there’s also two studies that support the use CH. One of them involves police officers, you can look it up as I’m too lazy right now. I brought these studies up on Lyle’s forum and all he said was “those studies are old” or something. Anyways, I’m taking my recommendations from John Meadows and he LOVES CH/Anaconda, so take that for what it’s worth because his advice is gold more often than not.

[quote]Cr Powerlinate wrote:
None of his studies, unless the post has been updated recently, include blends or carbohydrates. I.E. They’re nearly useless for discussions of muscle protein synthesis relevant to this forum’s goals.[/quote]

Actually do a simple google search on his name and hydrolysed protein and you will see the studies quoted DID administer 96g CHO with the protein. Here’s a quote of the summary conclusion: ‘hydrolyzed casein is digested more poorly, gets burned for energy to a greater degree and gets used more by the gut than intact casein; the end result of this is that hydrolyzed casein provides LESS amino acids to skeletal muscle after ingestion than intact casein protein.’

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:

[quote]Cr Powerlinate wrote:
None of his studies, unless the post has been updated recently, include blends or carbohydrates. I.E. They’re nearly useless for discussions of muscle protein synthesis relevant to this forum’s goals.[/quote]

Actually do a simple google search on his name and hydrolysed protein and you will see the studies quoted DID administer 96g CHO with the protein. Here’s a quote of the summary conclusion: ‘hydrolyzed casein is digested more poorly, gets burned for energy to a greater degree and gets used more by the gut than intact casein; the end result of this is that hydrolyzed casein provides LESS amino acids to skeletal muscle after ingestion than intact casein protein.’

[/quote]

This. That was one of the knocks of just regular whey as a stand alone drink, let alone something that digests even quicker.

I am not a scientist, but I theorize that casein hydro not being absorbed into the muscle isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I believe that your body burns the casein hyrdo INSTEAD of your own muscle, meaning that it is protein sparing. The fact that CASHYDRO is already broken down would allow for more “muscle breakdown prevention” which would allow one to train at a higher intensity without entering into a muscle-wasting state.

This would reduce muscle breakdown during intense training. Add in the carbs such as those found in Anaconda and it’s even more protein sparing, allowing one to train even more intensely without entering a wasting state. Wasn’t the whole purpose of a postworkout shake to stave off catabolism anyways, not build muscle. I believe that your body builds more muscle out of a big meal while you are sleeping. Thoughts anyone?

[quote]zraw wrote:
Pre+Intra workout shake

20-25g casein hdyro
100g carb source
10g glycerol
5g creatine
10g leucine

Yes it makes a difference[/quote]

Why the glycerol? Also what carb source would you suggest, fruit juices/dextrose/malto or something else entirely?

[quote]The Rattler wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:
Pre+Intra workout shake

20-25g casein hdyro
100g carb source
10g glycerol
5g creatine
10g leucine

Yes it makes a difference[/quote]

Why the glycerol? Also what carb source would you suggest, fruit juices/dextrose/malto or something else entirely?[/quote]
glycerol helps with the pump during a workout iirc.

I feel better, look better, and perform better with MAG-10 instead of Whey.

For me, it’s as simple as that.

Since using Anaconda and MAG-10, I’ve looked better than ever. And I dont change my training enough to credit it to that. There has to be something to it in my opinion.

[quote]Michael Crehan wrote:
I am not a scientist, but I theorize that casein hydro not being absorbed into the muscle isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I believe that your body burns the casein hyrdo INSTEAD of your own muscle, meaning that it is protein sparing. The fact that CASHYDRO is already broken down would allow for more “muscle breakdown prevention” which would allow one to train at a higher intensity without entering into a muscle-wasting state.

This would reduce muscle breakdown during intense training. Add in the carbs such as those found in Anaconda and it’s even more protein sparing, allowing one to train even more intensely without entering a wasting state. Wasn’t the whole purpose of a postworkout shake to stave off catabolism anyways, not build muscle. I believe that your body builds more muscle out of a big meal while you are sleeping. Thoughts anyone?[/quote]

If the use of C-hydro was just to limit muscle breakdown why not just use carbohydrates then? A lot cheaper. The body wants to use glycolysis as its main source of energy for something like weight lifting. The conversion of amino acids to glucose is inefficient and the body doesn’t want to do that unless it has to.

Maybe years ago the point of a PWO shake was to halt catabolism. But with the way periworkout nutrition is designed now days there isn’t much catabolism taking place. With proper nutrient uptake before, during, and after you can remain in a mostly anabolic state.

“Hereâ??s what the study found. Over the time course studied (8 hours after ingestion), the hydrolyzed casein product showed greater losses from digestion (that is, less was absorbed). As well, a greater amount of the hydrolysate was oxidized for energy through deamination (a process by which the amino group is stripped off the carbon backbone). Finally, a larger amount of the casein hydrolysate was used by the splanchnic bed (gut and intestines) with significantly less of the total protein reaching the bloodstream or peripheral tissues (muscles).”

So you could look at it like this: Over the course of 8 hours you might end up with more NET total AA uptake in muscle tissue with a different protein. But, the whole point of C-hydro is that it is rapidly digested and therefore rapidly taken into muscle tissue. If this has a greater net impact on protein synthesis; then who cares how well all of it is digested, or how much of it ends up in muscle tissue?

Some research is starting to show its not the total uptake amount of AA’s in the muscle tissue that is so important. It is the rapid rise of AA’s initiated by fast digesting proteins that cause a surge in protein synthesis. If total AA digestion and uptake were the most important then why not just constantly sip casein protein all day?

Why not just use carbohydrates? Becuase carbohydrates with CASHYDRO would be more protein-sparing than carbohydrates alone.