Carter Meets with Hamas, Again

[quote]lixy wrote:
Searching for a solution in Gaza

[i]Sharif al Uwasi bustled around like a good host, finding chairs for his guests and insisting that they ate, but his eyes were puffy, ringed by dark circles, and he looked as if he was carrying the heaviest burden of his life.

His son, Riad was killed by Israeli soldiers earlier this week as they raided al Bureij refugee camp in the Gaza Strip.

Riad was 11 years old and died from a bullet in the stomach.

His picture, taken a few years ago so he looked even younger than he was, smiled down on the lines of men who were sitting outside his grandfather’s house in the heart of the camp.

Riad’s young brother, too small to catch the grief but aware that something important had happened, tried to rise to the occasion.

He struck poses for the camera that must have seemed warrior-like to him, raising his fingers in a victory sign, and waving the Palestinian flag as father looked on, smiling weakly.

Mourning rituals in the Middle East are well developed.

Palestinians, no matter what their age, who are killed by Israel are regarded as martyrs who have died in the national struggle.

For three days chairs are set up under awnings outside family homes and patriotic songs are played at high volume from portable speakers.

Coffee is served and so is food at mealtimes.

The men - neighbours, friends and family - stay under the street awnings, and the women sit inside, unseen by outsiders.

Sharif al Uwasi was full of despair about the future.

Life has never been easy in Gaza. It is a narrow, overcrowded strip of land, inhabited by 1.4mn Palestinians, most of whom are refugees from the land that became Israel in 1948.

But life in Gaza has got much, much worse in the last few years.

The world’s biggest powers imposed sanctions against Hamas when it won elections in 2006.

They regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation and demanded, still without success, that it recognise Israel, give up violence and accept previous Palestinian agreements with the Israelis.

Since Hamas used force to take over from its Palestinian rivals Fatah last year Israel has allowed only the barest essentials into Gaza.

The result is that Gaza is being cut off from the modern world.

There is very little fuel, so the streets are full of carts pulled by horses and donkeys.

One million people, 70% of the population, live on UN food aid.

The economy has collapsed - 87% of private businesses have gone bust - but while the people get poorer, Hamas, the target of the sanctions, is, if anything stronger.

John Ging, who runs the Gaza operations of UNRWA, the UN agency that looks after Palestinian refugees, stood in a crowd of flour-dusted people at a food distribution, very frustrated about the international policy of isolating Gaza.

"The policy is failing because it is creating conditions on the ground that are not conducive to a peace process.

“The mindset of the people here is becoming more and more frustrated, more and more desperate, more and more radical and it is all so predictable - that is the tragedy.”

Gazans, who are tough and resourceful people, are suffering severe privations.

Most of them describe their home as the biggest prison in the world, and when you enter it from Israel it is hard to disagree.

A visitor to Gaza steps out of an affluent landscape, of fields where at this time of year crops are being harvested, into the Israeli border terminal, echoing and empty because so few people are allowed in and out.

After your passport is stamped you walk out through a series of steel doors which are unlocked by a remote hi-tech control centre, until the last one slides open.

The land ahead is blasted and empty, flattened by Israeli combat bulldozers to give the soldiers on the high concrete wall a clear field of fire.

Israel argues that the pain it has inflicted on Gaza is necessary to protect its own people, particularly those in the border town of Sderot, who have the misfortune to live hard up against the border with Gaza.

They have had to endure years of rocket fire, which have made their town a frightening, battered, and occasionally lethal place.

But the lesson of the last few years is that the pain on either side of the border is increasing, not decreasing.

More and more voices are saying that it is time for a change, for a different kind of policy that would aim for a mutual and lasting ceasefire, and the reopening of Gaza’s borders.

A major reason that has not been tried up to now is that it means doing business, directly or indirectly, with Hamas, and accepting its control of Gaza as a fact of life.

“Well, isn’t it fact of life in the Middle East?” asked Yuli Tamir, the Israeli minister of education and one of the founders of the campaign group Peace Now, when I put the point to her in Jerusalem.

“Both sides”, she said, "are not achieving their goals. Hamas sees that Israel is not going to surrender because of the Qassams (rockets), we know that what we did so far did not stop the Qassams, and in the middle there are people who are suffering every day.

“So I think that both sides realise we have to do something to save the sanity of the region and bring a little more peace and quiet.”

Ms Tamir said she could not speak for her prime minister, but she is not the only Israeli who believes that existing contacts need to be expanded, as long as the conditions are right.

The Israeli government has given former US president Jimmy Carter a ticking off for his plan to travel to Damascus to see Hamas political chief Khaled Meshaal.

Egyptian intermediaries have already brokered indirect contacts between Hamas and Israel.

So far, they have concentrated on a prisoner exchange to swap hundreds of Palestinians for the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, who was captured by Hamas almost two years ago.

Before President Carter’s visit, I travelled to Damascus to visit Khaled Meshaal.

His staff served tea and biscuits as we talked.

Mr Meshaal said that Hamas accepted and supported the Arab peace initiative, which offers peace and recognition to Israel in return for a full withdrawal from the land captured in 1967 in the West Bank, the dismantling of Jewish settlements and the establishment of a Palestinian state with a capital in east Jerusalem.

He also said he had been approached about the idea of secret back channel talks with Israel, but that he had turned the idea down.

Still, the indirect contacts brokered by Egypt have included talk about a ceasefire, though they could not agree how it would work. [/i]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7349561.stm[/quote]

Again, why doesn’t somebody, besides Israel, help them. They most certainly cannot expect that their sworn enemy, a people that they hate with such passion, be their only source of infastructure. Where are the Syrains or the Iranians or the Saudis, or the UAE? Certainly these countries have the means to help them, do they not?
You cannot fire bomb somebody’s country and then stand at the border with your hand out, it just makes no sense. Wouldn’t they rather get help from their own kind? Also, maybe if Iran sent them things other than weapons, they may squeeze in a meal now and then between mortars.

[quote]pat wrote:
Again, why doesn’t somebody, besides Israel, help them. They most certainly cannot expect that their sworn enemy, a people that they hate with such passion, be their only source of infastructure. [/quote]

Help them do what? Force Israel to give them a non-scattered decent piece of land? You must have missed the part where Israel could wipe the floor with a dozen countries united against it.

The Palestinians aren’t asking Israel for money as far as I know. They want three things as described by UN resolution 242.

“Things have a price. Humans have a dignity” – Emmanuel Kant

Taking advantage of the Palestinian plight to further their own agenda. Be it Wahabism in Saudi Arabia, wicked fundamentalism in Iran or dictatorial rule in Syria.

You can? One would think they’d try to bomb you back by any means available to them.

What do you mean by “kind”? Generally speaking, Iranians are Persians while Palestinians are Arabs.

Here’s an interesting bit of news:

US Jewish lobby gains new voice

I can already hear the terms anti-Semite and “self-hating Jew”…

And since we’re on the topic…

[i]An Israeli air strike on the Gaza Strip has reportedly killed 11 Palestinians after a Hamas attack which left three soldiers dead.

Five children are among those killed by the strike near Bureij refugee camp, doctors say, and a Reuters cameraman was killed, apparently by a tank shell. [/i]

[quote]pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
pat wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Seriously, when did it become controversial to try and solve conflicts with discussion?

When it legitimizes an organization who supports the destruction and the genocide of a country and people. When it legitimizes an organization that specifically targets women and children as ‘enemy combatants’. When it legitimizes an organization the claims that all Israelis are legitimate targets…That’s when.

So if all discussion and talks are off the table, what’s your solution? Kill or jail every member of Hamas and every Palestinian that voted them in?

There is only one way to deal with Hamas and that is harshly. They are as legitimate as the Bloods, Crips, or MS-13.I wouldn’t give them the time of day. If I had any influence over the region I would close the borders off between Israel and Gaza and West bank. To the point were there is nary a single Israeli on that soil. Then they could make a nation out of it or not or they can live in the perpetual chaos they seem to enjoy. If a single attack were to come from the newly sovereign territories, the reciprocation should be swift and thorough. Beyond that, let those who profess to support Palestine help them.
I would recommend the Palestinians quit launching rockets and suicide bombs into Israel if they want any chance at peace…Killing Israeli citizens tends to piss them off and make them seemingly unreasonable.

They have genuine support in the region and that is what makes them different from the Mafia.

The problems of the Palestinians will not go away by getting rid of the Hamas, someone else will stand up in their place.

Finally, if every asshole that can fire a rocket launcher can halt negotiations or undo negotiations at will, no progress will ever be made so your last paragraph makes no sense whatsoever.

It just keeps Hamas the power to feed the conflict that feeds them.

If they have so much support, why doesn’t anybody help them…I mean besides Israel.
You paragraph commenting on my paragraph makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes, I am aware that Hamas’s survival depends on conflict with Israel.[/quote]

They do not need much support.

They only need the Palestinians and they have them.

[quote]lixy wrote:
And since we’re on the topic…

[i]An Israeli air strike on the Gaza Strip has reportedly killed 11 Palestinians after a Hamas attack which left three soldiers dead.

Five children are among those killed by the strike near Bureij refugee camp, doctors say, and a Reuters cameraman was killed, apparently by a tank shell. [/i]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7351024.stm[/quote]

They use tank shells for their air strikes?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
And since we’re on the topic…

[i]An Israeli air strike on the Gaza Strip has reportedly killed 11 Palestinians after a Hamas attack which left three soldiers dead.

Five children are among those killed by the strike near Bureij refugee camp, doctors say, and a Reuters cameraman was killed, apparently by a tank shell. [/i]

They use tank shells for their air strikes?[/quote]

LOL!

[quote]pat wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Seriously, when did it become controversial to try and solve conflicts with discussion?

When it legitimizes an organization who supports the destruction and the genocide of a country and people. When it legitimizes an organization that specifically targets women and children as ‘enemy combatants’. When it legitimizes an organization the claims that all Israelis are legitimate targets…That’s when. [/quote]

Are you a member of Aipac ?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Searching for a solution in Gaza

Bomb 'em all!

[/quote]

Agreed. You can’t negotiate with vicious rodents. Fucking bug bomb the place already!!

[quote]lixy wrote:
You can? One would think they’d try to bomb you back by any means available to them.

Wouldn’t they rather get help from their own kind? Also, maybe if Iran sent them things other than weapons, they may squeeze in a meal now and then between mortars.

What do you mean by “kind”? Generally speaking, Iranians are Persians while Palestinians are Arabs.[/quote]

I think he means Muslims.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

They use tank shells for their air strikes?[/quote]

Assbackward if you ask me.

I have some vaguely related questions for the Americans on this board.

How do you feel about the amount of financial aid that your country gives to Israel?

Are you aware that roughly one third of your foreign aid buget is spent on a country that comprises less than 0.001 percent of the worlds population?

Why do you think it is that Isreal recieves such a diproportionate amount of US aid?

Is it justified?

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I have some vaguely related questions for the Americans on this board.
[/quote]

I’m not American but I think that I can possible provide you with an answer to that.

How should they feel? America has made it clear that they are firm believers in the right to peace and democracy. The financial aid given to Israel is nothing but a consequence of America’s benevolence.

Yes but that statistic is irrelevant. You want to take away
a) countries that are not indeed of monetary aid
b) countries that are not traditionally American allies
c) countries that have any link with a terrorist group.

After that I think you’ll find that the percentage is much higher.

Why they receive that amount is directly linked (I believe) to two factors.

The first is the one I mentioned before, America’s firm stance (belief) in the right to freedom and democracy.

The second will perhaps be linked to the very large Jewish population of the United States. It’s not criminal to admit this, and neither is it a conspiracy theory, it’s just the way things have always worked. Lend a hand to a brother in need…

Is the help justified? Yes I think it is… Now whether or not you think Israel as a country should be justified, that is a completely different story.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I have some vaguely related questions for the Americans on this board.

How do you feel about the amount of financial aid that your country gives to Israel?
[/quote]
Too much.

I do not know if that 1/3 number is accurate but we give more to Muslim nations.

Because we do not want a repeat Holocaust and their neighbors want to “erase Israel from the pages of history.”

I would like to see it reduced but I am afraid the tanks would start rolling if we stopped paying off all the countries in that region.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:

I do not know if that 1/3 number is accurate but we give more to Muslim nations.
[/quote]

Yeah the 1/3 number is probably inaccurate. As with any statistic, the number is dependant on how you chose to define certain things. Those who are biased can easily manipulate the figures to suit their point.

I think that my initial point that Israel receives a hugely disproportionate amount of US aid still stands though.

I am far from convinced that Ahmadinejad is seriously considering attacking Israel. I certainly don’t like the guy but attacking Israel would be suicide and I don’t believe he is that stupid.

[quote]
Is it justified?

I would like to see it reduced but I am afraid the tanks would start rolling if we stopped paying off all the countries in that region.[/quote]

Israel is capable of looking after itself.

I truly belive that the prospect of Israel nuking another nation is much more likely to occur than the other way around.

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:

Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I have some vaguely related questions for the Americans on this board.

I’m not American but I think that I can possible provide you with an answer to that.

How do you feel about the amount of financial aid that your country gives to Israel?

How should they feel? America has made it clear that they are firm believers in the right to peace and democracy. The financial aid given to Israel is nothing but a consequence of America’s benevolence.
[/quote]

I don’t think that they should feel any particular way. I asked the question because I am interested to know.

Personally I would not be very happy about it.

Good points.

Seems like a logical explanation.

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:
The second will perhaps be linked to the very large Jewish population of the United States.[/quote]

You’re mistaken here. It’s not so much the number of Jews in the US than their affluence.

[quote]lixy wrote:
swissrugby67 wrote:
The second will perhaps be linked to the very large Jewish population of the United States.

You’re mistaken here. It’s not so much the number of Jews in the US than their affluence. [/quote]

Thanks for the correction.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I have some vaguely related questions for the Americans on this board.

How do you feel about the amount of financial aid that your country gives to Israel?

Are you aware that roughly one third of your foreign aid buget is spent on a country that comprises less than 0.001 percent of the worlds population?

Why do you think it is that Isreal recieves such a diproportionate amount of US aid?

Is it justified?

[/quote]

Israel is a good and valuable ally. Unwavering and determined we are lucky to have them as allies, so yes, it’s all fine with me. Why would you care? Does it affect your life in anyway?

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:

Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I have some vaguely related questions for the Americans on this board.

I’m not American but I think that I can possible provide you with an answer to that.

How do you feel about the amount of financial aid that your country gives to Israel?

How should they feel? America has made it clear that they are firm believers in the right to peace and democracy. The financial aid given to Israel is nothing but a consequence of America’s benevolence.

Are you aware that roughly one third of your foreign aid buget is spent on a country that comprises less than 0.001 percent of the worlds population?

Yes but that statistic is irrelevant. You want to take away
a) countries that are not indeed of monetary aid
b) countries that are not traditionally American allies
c) countries that have any link with a terrorist group.

After that I think you’ll find that the percentage is much higher.

Why do you think it is that Isreal recieves such a diproportionate amount of US aid?

Is it justified?

Why they receive that amount is directly linked (I believe) to two factors.

The first is the one I mentioned before, America’s firm stance (belief) in the right to freedom and democracy.

The second will perhaps be linked to the very large Jewish population of the United States. It’s not criminal to admit this, and neither is it a conspiracy theory, it’s just the way things have always worked. Lend a hand to a brother in need…

Is the help justified? Yes I think it is… Now whether or not you think Israel as a country should be justified, that is a completely different story.

[/quote]

I believe you assessment is correct. When you are beset on all sides by enemies who seek your destruction, you need help to hold your ground, and lots of it. If Israel shows any weakness whatsoever, they will be overrun in an instant.