Cardio and Muscle Loss

Yeah, I really think the view on steady-state cardio on this site is a bit overblown. Running 3 miles/30 minutes a day isn’t going to magically turn you into a bag of bones the same way that the mere act of lifting weights doesn’t turn you into the Incredible Hulk.

I don’t think most people around here are talking about marathon training when they mention steady-state cardio.

[quote]Prisoner wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
If I do cardio it’s in high interval sessions like sprints. Look at a sprinter’s body .vs. a long distance runners body. There is a lot of research to be done on the subject. Hit the search on this site and I’m sure you will find a lot on the subject.

Gerdy

Most distance runners, especially good ones, have very little actual fat on their bodies. [Plodders who run at 8 minute mile pace and don’t have their nutrition in gear are a different story]. But top runners tend to have little fat. They just also have little muscle. In most cases, if they magically added 30 lbs of lean mass in an instant, their bodyfat PERCENTAGE would be as low or lower than a sprinters.

Excessive distance running does NOT promote fat gain. In any way. It’s just very catabolic and not good for body composition.It is also hard to eat enough to fuel energy demands to retain muscle when you are burning those kind of calories. That’s a big part of the problem.

Oh I didn’t mean to imply that long distance runners were not lean. I was trying to say that if you perform cardio at high interval sessions like sprinting instead of one long drawn out cardio session like running 5k that you can burn fat and keep more muscle. So when trying to build muscle and stay lean(er) I’d prefer the sprinting type of cardio.

If one were running long distance their trying to put on muscle would be halted. They would still be burning fat tho. The sprinter .vs. long distance runner analogy was just showing that while both are lean, most sprinters carry more muscle especially in the legs than long distance runners who are lean, yet lack size, most are very skinny.

So like you said about long distance runners gaining 30lbs. Take the same person and split them up in two dimensions. lol Train one with long distance running and the other sprinting. The sprinter is lean yet carries more muscle and the long distance runner probably looks like the sprinter with 30lbs less muscle. Hopefully I’m getting across what I’m trying to. lol Messages can be misleading at times. Sorry for the mishap.

Gerdy

Boy, if I had more time on here to set all you Newbs straight on things. It’s like the blind leading the blind on this forum!

In BB cardio is done strickly for weight loss, with the focus on burning calories, more specifically fat, without forcing the body to remodel itself to perform the fuction of your training more efficiently - which means muscle catabolism. So you can throw out sprints, HITT, and running.

The only thing that will achieve fat loss with minimal, or no muscle loss, is doing cardio at medium to medium high intensity. Keeping your HR in the target zone (120-130 BPM for most) and not performing any explosive activities.

You want to utilize chiefly your red muscle tissue which is equiped to deal with oxygen, which is the only way to metabolize fat (Kreb cycle)

Explosions= White muscle or fast twitch muscle, which deal with anerobic glycolysis. Basically they burn the sugar stored in the muscle tissues.

Tapping into actually buring your stores of bodyfat is what you want to do, and the only way to do that is the cardio method I laided out.

My favorite means is via elyptical trainer, as it provides a smooth motion, that is easy to perform, gentle on the joints, yet burns a lot of calories for the time you are actually on the machine.

Performing other activies such as biking running sprints, will not burn body fat directly, it will burn calories, but more likely those calories will be taken from the most dispensible source of energy in your body: your skeletal muscle.

Last tip: 30-45 min of cardio, at the pace I prescribed, followed directly by a post workout meal -i.e. protein shake.

Diet and cardio need to be incorporated together. If they are not insync you could lose muscle and gain fat at the same time, or lose muscle and fat. The goal here is to lose fat and either keep ALL your muscle size or even gain muscle.[/quote]

I basically agree with most of this. But I think you are overlooking the benefits of high intensity cardio. You burn more calories, creating an overall greater deficit [yes assuming the same diet] and no I don’t think that this ultimately melts muscle as opposed to your body dipping into fat stores. Never mind that a greater percentage of fat is burned buring actual exercise with low intensity. The afterburn and metabolic benfits to intense cardio are similar to that of weight training also. I’d also be shocked as shit to see someone eating a caloric deficit and training hard with weights lose muscle and actually GAIN fat because their cardio is sub-optimal.

[quote]Prisoner wrote:

Boy, if I had more time on here to set all you Newbs straight on things. It’s like the blind leading the blind on this forum!

The only thing that will achieve fat loss… [/quote]

You had some good points in there, but those two sentances made you lose a lot of credibility.

Generally, when you want people to listen to you, its not a good idea to open by offending them. And if there is one universal truth to this subject, its that there is never only one possible way to do anything.

[quote]evansmi wrote:

Generally, when you want people to listen to you, its not a good idea to open by offending them. [/quote]

HAHA, ya got a point. But it’s the internet…and that’s why it sucks!

cardio causes muscle loss usually when the cardio is to long, to intense, or both.

For example, if you did an hit program lasting 20 minutes; muscle loss would not be much of a problem even though its intense because the cardio is not long enough.

However, if you did high intensity cardio or even medium intensity (ie; jogging) for 40 minutes, then a muscle loss is a real possibility.

Low intensity cardio like walking can be done for 40 minutes or even longer without muscle loss.

Also, diet plays an important role because any type of exercise including walking can start eating muscle if your diet is not sufficient.

Thats a heck of a lot of information to take in at one time, but I think I get the gist of it. How does this sound guys?..

High intensity cardio obviously burns more calories for the time you spend doing it, but it burns less calories from fat, and more calories from muscle. Why do sprinters have more muscular bodies though? perhaps they put more of an emphasis on Strength training? Or maybe although sprinting does burn muscle when your actually doing it, perhaps its such a small fraction of muscle that was actually burned, that it recovers, and rebuilds stronger before the next session?

ah…as long as I’m not running a marathon, I’m just not going to worry about it.

Thanks once again:)

[quote]IMCS614 wrote:
Cueball, can you give a few more details on what you just said regarding HIIT during gaining. Do you mean as a means of maintaining leanness, kind of in the same vein as what many do with low intensity stuff during gaining (for instance, Berardi recommends 15 min low intensity after lifting and 30 min on off days to aid in nutrient uptake and recovery, plus lots do some incline walking 3-4 days/week to try to keep the fat off w/ the trigyceride-specific burning)?

I’d be curious as to your recommendations and how you came about them. (I only ask because i’ve been doing some pre-breakfast low intensity cardio for the reasons mentioned above).

cheers,

ICS[/quote]

You were correct in assuming I meant HIIT during a mass building phase a s a way to maintain leaness. I think it’s superior to steady state all aroundDue to the conditioning and EPOC. But in my personal experience during a caloric deficit, I could not recover (or give my best intensity to it) enough and my workouts suffered. Mainly my squats. My numbers went down and my strength was shot.

Once I stopped and went with steady state during the deficit, my squat numbers started to climb again. I also felt invigorated during those sessions instead of completely gased.

Hope this answers your question. (I know it was a day late)

cueball

[quote]Prisoner wrote:

Boy, if I had more time on here to set all you Newbs straight on things. It’s like the blind leading the blind on this forum!

In BB cardio is done strickly for weight loss, with the focus on burning calories, more specifically fat, without forcing the body to remodel itself to perform the fuction of your training more efficiently - which means muscle catabolism. So you can throw out sprints, HITT, and running.

The only thing that will achieve fat loss with minimal, or no muscle loss, is doing cardio at medium to medium high intensity. Keeping your HR in the target zone (120-130 BPM for most) and not performing any explosive activities.

You want to utilize chiefly your red muscle tissue which is equiped to deal with oxygen, which is the only way to metabolize fat (Kreb cycle)

Explosions= White muscle or fast twitch muscle, which deal with anerobic glycolysis. Basically they burn the sugar stored in the muscle tissues.

Tapping into actually buring your stores of bodyfat is what you want to do, and the only way to do that is the cardio method I laided out.

My favorite means is via elyptical trainer, as it provides a smooth motion, that is easy to perform, gentle on the joints, yet burns a lot of calories for the time you are actually on the machine.

Performing other activies such as biking running sprints, will not burn body fat directly, it will burn calories, but more likely those calories will be taken from the most dispensible source of energy in your body: your skeletal muscle.

Last tip: 30-45 min of cardio, at the pace I prescribed, followed directly by a post workout meal -i.e. protein shake.

Diet and cardio need to be incorporated together. If they are not insync you could lose muscle and gain fat at the same time, or lose muscle and fat. The goal here is to lose fat and either keep ALL your muscle size or even gain muscle.[/quote]

I understand you have far more experience than me, and probably 99% of people on this site, but I don’t buy this at all.

“Performing other activies such as biking running sprints, will not burn body fat directly, it will burn calories, but more likely those calories will be taken from the most dispensible source of energy in your body: your skeletal muscle.”

The goal of HIT isn’t to burn bodyfat directly, neither is weightraining, but both burn bodyfat extremly well INDIRECTLY. HIT isn’t designed to be performed for long periods of time, as you know. I agree with Nelson Montana when he says that cardio is really a waste of time, as the caloric expenditure during the 30 min sessions are pretty insignificant. He claims true loss of bodyfat is achieved through eating clean and less, and weighttraining. Not to mention, those ellipticals can be pretty far off on how many calories they claim you burn in one session.

[quote]Mcflurry wrote:

High intensity cardio obviously burns more calories for the time you spend doing it, but it burns less calories from fat, and more calories from muscle. Why do sprinters have more muscular bodies though?
[/quote]

It’ll burn muscle if you have a very large caloric deficit AND you don’t get enough recovery between leg days and sprints. If you reduce the volume on leg days or reduce the intensity, or if you keep the volume and intensity the same but allow more time for recovery, sprinting can BUILD muscle just like squatting can. both are anaerobic activities that activate fast twitch fibers, and both have the potential to strengthen and even build your legs. whether or not sprints build muscle or burn muscle depends on your diet, recovery, and other training.

Way too many variable to try and say sprints burn muscle. If you squat too often and don’t recover/eat enough, then squats will burn muscle. Anything CAN burn muscle.

[quote]andrewc1989 wrote:

The goal of HIT isn’t to burn bodyfat directly, neither is weightraining, but both burn bodyfat extremly well INDIRECTLY. HIT isn’t designed to be performed for long periods of time, as you know. I agree with Nelson Montana when he says that cardio is really a waste of time, as the caloric expenditure during the 30 min sessions are pretty insignificant. He claims true loss of bodyfat is achieved through eating clean and less, and weighttraining. Not to mention, those ellipticals can be pretty far off on how many calories they claim you burn in one session.[/quote]

While i agree that diet is the most important aspect of cutting, I don’t think cardio is a waste of time at all. I mean if your really fat then yea, 30 minutes on the stairmaster is insignificant, but if your already in good shape and trying to get down to low bodyfat, mixed in with a slightly reduced calorie diet, cardio can make or break your physique.
In my opinion of course

[quote]evansmi wrote:
Mcflurry wrote:

High intensity cardio obviously burns more calories for the time you spend doing it, but it burns less calories from fat, and more calories from muscle. Why do sprinters have more muscular bodies though?

It’ll burn muscle if you have a very large caloric deficit AND you don’t get enough recovery between leg days and sprints. If you reduce the volume on leg days or reduce the intensity, or if you keep the volume and intensity the same but allow more time for recovery, sprinting can BUILD muscle just like squatting can. both are anaerobic activities that activate fast twitch fibers, and both have the potential to strengthen and even build your legs. whether or not sprints build muscle or burn muscle depends on your diet, recovery, and other training.

Way too many variable to try and say sprints burn muscle. If you squat too often and don’t recover/eat enough, then squats will burn muscle. Anything CAN burn muscle. [/quote]

Exactly. To say high-intenstiy cardio is necessarily catbolic is far simplifying. Look at speed skaters. Many have built very big legs with very little weight work from intense persistant anaerobic efforts. I think it should be limited when dieting more for these reasons. Not because it’s inherently catabolic. Recupreative ability is also taxed when dieting hard and hitting the weights hard. I think more than 1 intense interval workout a week would be too much for most people.

My own experience with cardio and muscle mass loss:

A couple of years ago i started running on my off days as i do like running… i was running for about 30 minutes; just a jog; no sprinting or anything.

Prior to even starting to run, i had been lifting for years. I had some fat but not really that much and really did not start running to burn off fat. At any rate, i continued to lift while i was running; but after a couple months someone asked me why i looked so skinny and realized i had lost one hell of a lot of muscle; i did not lose any strengh i guess a result of muscle memory.

I was not even trying to diet during this time and was really eating a lot of fast food; but i still lost a lot of muscle without even realizing.

I guess im saying that you really do have to watch that you dont push cardio to far during a workout program. Everybody has threshold and i cant say for each individual what that threshold is; but i know i went beyond it without even realizing it and was not even on a calorie restriction; so i would think if your restricting calories you really need to be careful.

Did you lose weight, or just lose muscle and maintain the same weight?

HIIT may or may not directly burn muscle, but the fact that is severely affects my leg training sessions causes me to ultimately: lose muscle.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
HIIT may or may not directly burn muscle, but the fact that is severely affects my leg training sessions causes me to ultimately: lose muscle.

[/quote]

Exactly. It is hard to recover from a couple intense HIIT sessions a week. It really impacts my weight training.

I can really focus on lifting and fit some lower intensity steady state cardio workouts in a week. Not so when I am running hills or sprints.

I guess I’m lucky to be young and resilient.

I am going to throw in here and say I too believe HIIT is over worshipped and SS cardio is unnecessarily vilified.

Both have their uses and can be great if utilized intelligently. It always kills me when decades of empirical success are nullified in the minds of the masses by some studies.

HIIT is, in my opinion, used by many who do so because it seems more academically informed rather than because they’ve found it actually works for what they’re after.

[quote]plutusplutus wrote:
I like to crank the incline up to 10.0-12.0 and set the speed at 3.5-4.0 and go for about 20-30 mins 3x a week.[/quote]

WORD!!! Me too

I ride a bike leisurely. I have yet to lose muscle. Big suprise.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am going to throw in here and say I too believe HIIT is over worshipped and SS cardio is unnecessarily vilified.

Both have their uses and can be great if utilized intelligently. It always kills me when decades of empirical success are nullified in the minds of the masses by some studies.

HIIT is, in my opinion, used by many who do so because it seems more academically informed rather than because they’ve found it actually works for what they’re after.[/quote]

Maybe some do it because it seems like the thing to do nowadays, much like TBT. But I have experimented with both, and the only thing steady state cardio did for me was make me better at steady state cardio. I used to run often, as much as 5 miles, and as little as two four to 5 times a week, and I saw huge losses in strength and size.

This wasn’t because of my diet, I was certainly taking in enough calories. I think the problem was hormonal and my cortisol levels were probably through the roof. There is so many factors in fat loss, and the utmost importance is how well the thyroid, and ultimately the metabolism, is functioning. It explains why certain people can eat shit all day and still say thin. I have dropped to around 5% bodyfat (of course, i was hardly 150lbs on a dainty 5’6 frame lol) and I’m certain my steady state cardio I religiously performed had nothing to do with it. I think that if one wants to build muscle and keep it one should avoid activities that antagonize this. I’m not at all saying that one will lose muscle if SScardio is performed, I just don’t think it’s necessary or even optimal. But as you stated, nobody can ignore what has worked for people.