T Nation

Carbs + Fat for Young Adults


#1

And by young adults I mean 17 year olds, I'm a few months from turning 18. My mom argues that worrying about not eating carbs and fat together is not necessary at my age, and probably won't be. She says that it mostly refers to people eating stuff like donuts and other unhealthy food, but stuff like a bagel with cream cheese and salami (P + F + C) is perfectly healthy.

True, or untrue? And as a 17 year old, do I need to worry about it at all?


#2

In a sense it, the whole P+C, P+F thing can be takenm to far IMO.

But also IMO a Bagel is a waste of a perfectly good chance to eat something worth while. I however dont see anything wrong with having HEALTHY fats protein and carb togethr mainly earlier in the day for myself. Such as fruit, nuts and protein of some kind. Or say a Big salad with tomatoes etc, an avacado, turkey, nuts. olive oil and vinegar hey and some fruit.

Or adding nuts or a glass of milk in with you morning oats and fruit. yada yada.

But things like bagels and the like of processed junk is one of the leading reason why child onset diabetes is the epidemic it is. Sure you may not get it but why risk it. No need in being extremely anal as long as 90% of the time you simply make wise choice of the types of P,C, and F you consume.

Sorry so winded and hope it helps somehow.

Phill


#3

first of all F+C+P is different then F+C alone, because (enough) P slows down the insulin reaction.

I would say in general your mother is right, but if you have ever been seriously overweight you would have to keep an eye on carbs.


#4

Healthy? Depends on the specific food choices.

Optimal in terms of improving your physique? Probably not, depends on your goals. If you are young, lean and trying to gain weight, it is nearly impossible to separate carbs and fats the whole day long while maintaining a sufficient caloric intake. If fat loss is your goal, I would adhere more strictly to the respective guidelines.


#5

Your mom is right (except for the bagel and cream cheese and salami, but even then that's doable). People have gotten plenty lean and muscular by eating all three together. Worry about getting enough protein, EFAs, and enjoy your meals, bagels included.


#6

Not quite true. Actually even protein by its self can cause an insulin reaction. Its more the choices and timing.

But anyway other than that its all good

Hope that helps,
Phill


#7

Oh, I'd like to say, by bagel, I mean whole-wheat bagel, not processed crap, my mom and I make sure to get the healthiest, most natural food. Also, I am not trying to lose weight, in fact I have a problem gaining it. I weighed 135 from like, 14 to almost 17. I noticed I weighed ~150 sometime around 17, and it took me by surprise since I had not checked my weight after the millionth time that it showed 135. Now I'm just trying to get bigger. I have a super fast metabolism, but am an ecto-mesomorph (skinny, hard to gain/lose weight, but very defined and toned muscles nevertheless).

If that makes any difference. :slightly_smiling: And thanks for the responses so far, they've helped.


#8

Ack, sry for the double post, I'd also like to say yes, these are all healthy food P, F, and C choices. No donuts, chips, fast foods, etc (we also cook in virgin olive oil). But F + C do get combined a lot, a favorite of ours is pasta (whole-wheat) alfredo with chicken. P + F + C galore. :slight_smile:


#9

Hard to say. JB has loosened the reins, so to speak, on his guidelines. Beans, fruits, and veggies are deemed "OK" during P&F and actually encouraged! A piece of fruit with a P+F meal, a mound of veggies, or a moderate amount of beans is a-ok.

However, if you eat these healthy foods in excess (i.e. 3 apples + P&F), you'll probably incur some spillover. Even then, at the most, a piece of fruit will set you back maybe 25g of CHO.

In fact, according to JB's Hard-Body Manifesto, in the 2 - 3 hours after working out,a 40/30/30 style meal is suggested. Dr. Lonnie Lowery has posted information on research done showing that a moderate amount of fat and carbs combined in the few hours beyond the anabolic "zone" of nutrient timing are actually beneficial. My 40/30/30 meal is usually a 93% lean burger on a whole wheat bun with a minimal amount of condiments and lots of veggies.

Basically, use common sense. The idea JB is trying to get across is to avoid food combinations like taking a bunch of salami and then eating it with a bagel. Or chowing down on pancakes and eat chicken slathered in olive oil or butter. So long as your carbohydrates are non granular in the nature (fruits, veggies, beans), feel free to eat them all the time with your P&F meals.


#10

So called whole wheat bagel = Processed junk. The word bagel and healty food dont belong in the same sentence.

Now can you have them sure just know hery are fairly empty in anything but k/cals.

Other than that just do what others and I have stated and your set.


#11

Sorry to be so anal about this, but can someone point to an article or something about why bagels are bad? Just wondering...


#12

Your standard, run of the mill, white bagel lacks any real nutritional value. Think of it as eating pure sugar. Whole wheat bagels are a superior food choice. I wouldn't call them "bad." I eat a whole wheat bagel with real jam as part of my PWO meal.

However, beyond their implementation either as a morning meal just prior to a workout, or a meal just after a workout, you have far better food options at your disposable. If you want to drop weight, limit the consumption of your whole wheat bagels to those two times.

At other times of the day I think there are simply better options. This doesn't mean "oooh gosh, I can never have a bagel with salami ever again," but I think the longer you're at the powerbuilding game, the more you start looking at food as a resource of energy and growth, rather than "oooh this tastes good" or "it's convenient." Now there are some nutritionists who claim that the nutrient partitioning theory is bunk. Most of this rests on the grounds that protein itself spikes your insulin levels, and, that if you're eating consistently, you can't "magically" split up how your body is digesting different nutrients - i.e. they all get mixed together in the end anyways.

Either way, I think what you should take away from this is that there are better things out there. Namely, fruits, veggies, etc. Things like salami, full fat cream cheese, and refined grain products aren't helping your body... unless you simply want to put on tons and tons of mass. Some individuals need that kind of caloric intake to begin adding muscle. Fat conscious individuals don't.

So to summarize:

  1. White bagels are worthless. Stay away. A whole wheat bagel outside of your PWO or temporal eating schedule, as a morning meal, is not ideal. Can you have one every once and awhile, sure. I think people need to make gradual adaptations to their diet. It took me over six months before I hit all of JB's 7 Habits. If that bagel keeps you sane, go ahead and eat it, but be cognizant of the superior food choices available to you.

1A. A white bagel immediately PWO can serve as an excellent high-GI carb. Throw down some fast acting protein and you're golden. Once again, Surge or a similar PWO recovery drink would be ideal, but this exists as one of your options. Just make sure the white bagel isn't loaded with fat.

  1. Following the guidelines of nutrient timing and selecting optimal food choices will naturally "take care" of the P&F and P&C combinations. JB, in his most recent literature, has eschewed even mentioning these old ME guidelines. ME Reloaded and things like Gourmet Nutrition and the Hard-Body Manifesto have singled out nutrient timing as the key factor to body composition and athletic success.

  2. Make gradual changes to your diet. Dr. Lonnie Lowery still eats whole grains consistently through the morning hours. My body puts on fat mass when I eat these foods outside the peri-workout nutrient timing window.

Hopefully this has helped. No food is "good" or "bad." Modern nutritional theory has shown us how we can optimize our body's tolerance for certain foods at certain times of the day. Read Lean Eatin I & II for more information, as well as the Nutrient Timing articles. I hope all this helps, and keep eating!


#13

zdrax, thx on the bagel thing. But also, lean eating is certainly not for me. I have always eaten big (but not always healthy) and have always been skinny. It is definitely hard for me to gain any serious weight or fat. I'm 17 and 155 lbs with ~10-11% body fat.


#14

Well sure what you need is not lean eating to put on weight but CLEAN eating is healthy and you CAN put on weight.

It all in the choices you make. You will want to drink whole milk, nuts,eggs, a little fattier cuts of various animals that can move under there own power be it on land, sea, or air. You will need to focus on dense carb choice but still healthy. Like oats, sweet potatoes, potatoes, rice, your denser fruits like bananas, raisans, grapes, avacado.

Sure have the occasional Friggin Bagel but just be aware that even these so called Whole Wheat bagels are void of most everything good. Just because it says whole Wheat doesnt mean Jack now a days. " Whole Grain" means a bit more. Still it is largely processed nutrient stipped CRAP.

JUust my take. I would rather Belly up to some fruit, ham and egss than a Damn bagel anyway. Or a bowl of oats with fruit and milk. Or a big slab of salmon some veggies with olive oil and a sweet patatoe with cinnamon and splenda or in your case even a bit of honey.

Man
Now Im hungry.

Hope that helps,
Phill


#15

I've never seen a guy so hungry for HEALTHY food haha. Thx a lot guys, it helped.