T Nation

Carbs Cycling Experience

Phatkins:

Regarding calories, i log all my food/daily on thedailyplate.com.

Following Shelby Macro and not to worried about calories, but for the fun of it on my low carbs im about 2000-2400cal.

This is really below maintenance since im 6f and 194 , well seems im now 192as of today.Lost 2 pounds in the last 10days.

Thanks guys. I’m going to adjust my calories down slightly to 10*BW (~1800 kcal) and add a refeed on Sundays for the next 4 weeks. I’ll reassess from there.

Ever since I started using fitday.com I’ve realized how easy it is to get to your daily allotment. I’ve been eating 6-7 times a day so I’m going to cut that down to 4 on non-training days and 5 on training (PWO shake).

On another note, what’s a proper number of fish oil caps (1,000 mg) per day if I should be watching fat intake?

[quote]elusive wrote:
Low Fat Chocolate Sorbet
Low Fat Ben & Jerry’s Half-Baked ice cream**
Fat-Free Chocolate Fudge ice cream
Fat-Free Chocolate ice cream
Fat-Free Vanilla ice cream
Fat-Free Ruffles Potato Chips
Angel Food Cake Mix
Chocolate Frosting*
Maple Syrup*
Chocolate Syrup*
Chocolate Sprinkles*
Bagels
Fat-Free Chocolate Muffins
Low Fat Chocolate Cake snacks
Garlic Sticks
Fat-Free Cream Cheese*
Low Fat Pancakes
Low Fat Waffles
Low Fat Pizza
Low Fat Pizza Bagels
Texas Toast
Fat-Free Whipped Cream*
Fat-Free Chocolate Pudding
[/quote]

Dear god, man!!!

That’s it, I’m so inspired by this thread (ok, these pictures) to switch from constant low carbs to carb cycling. Great thread, I’m reading with much interest!

I predict a discussion of this dieting strategy in the next Question of Strength:

Also:

Is the whole point of the weekly refeed and low-cal/carb eating during the week to basically magnify the effect of peri-workout carb timing?

What I mean is, say you had previously eaten carbs around your workout session to maximize the benefit of your carb intake.

The workout depletes stores, the peri-workout nutrition replenishes them.

This would occur 3-5 times a week: quick depletion, quick replenishment (workout, feed).

Now…

Going low-cal/carb throughout the week and only refeeding roughly once a week is like aggregating all the depletion/replenishment instances in the above scenario into one singular even (the weekly depletion followed by the weekly refeed), and given the more extreme nature of the time frames at play (weekly, rather than daily), the impact of eating this way should be greater.

Since this entire cycle isn’t longer than a week in most cases, that shouldn’t be extreme enough on the body to lose muscle or screw up metabolism.

Right? Dr. Clay?

Stupid question:

You guys mention checking your weight and observing how many days to return to the same weight after your refeed. Obviously, you’re not “stuck” on that baseline weight, right? What I am asking is, how steadily does your weight go up? I wish someone could make an estimate of LBM gains…

just created an excel sheet for “Thibs carb cycling codex” so you dont have to do the calcs. if u want… PM me your email address and ill send it to you.

if its useful post on this thread please:

[quote]elusive wrote:
My Angel Food Cake just came out of the oven. Its not the prettiest looking cake around, but I won’t be able to taste the difference. I’m waiting for it to cool off before I frost this bad boy.[/quote]

oooooooooooohhh! I can never wait for food to cool. I will burn the crap out of my mouth while shoveling stuff into it -lol. You need to find some way to make Metabolic Drive frosting!

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
oooooooooooohhh! I can never wait for food to cool. I will burn the crap out of my mouth while shoveling stuff into it -lol. You need to find some way to make Metabolic Drive frosting!

S
[/quote]

LOL. I didn’t wait for it to cool either, but the frosting didn’t come out too bad. I honestly feel ashamed I didn’t think of a Metabolic Drive frosting… WOW. I could’ve AT LEAST mixed it into the batter. I will hang my head low… but not for long, because I’m about to start feasting!

YEAH YEAH, I woke up a little eariler than usual lol. I got up to use the bathroom (about 3-4 time a night, annoying) and decided to stay awake.


My breakfast (1st meal):

Some chips
Slice of cake
Ben & Jerry’s Half Baked
2 Bagels
1 choc. muffin

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
I predict a discussion of this dieting strategy in the next Question of Strength:

[quote}
TM: Coach, there has been a lot of talk about carb cycling with massive refeeds scheduled at regular intervals. What are your thoughts on this?

CP: Well, there’s a saying among the Cossacks: “You can have two sets of balls but God only gave you one scrotum.”
[/quote]

I’d like to see a discussion on this topic. I’ve seen Shugs provide similar input on the Cheater’s Diet to the tune of “There’s a word for people who eat like that: Fat.”

Quick Update:

Ice Cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream on top of waffles is delicious.

Okay, carry on.

[quote]elusive wrote:
Quick Update:

Ice Cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream on top of waffles is delicious.

Okay, carry on.[/quote]

Haha. You are nuts. I could never handle that many carbs.

I’m glad Dr. Clay got in on this.

Anyone have an opinion on how many carbs is too low for low days? I’m 192 lbs, at about 1900 cals and 30g carbs on low days. 2100 cals and 75g carbs on medium days. Also, if I’m about 14% bf, what should I shoot for on refeed days?

[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
elusive wrote:
Quick Update:

Ice Cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream on top of waffles is delicious.

Okay, carry on.

Haha. You are nuts. I could never handle that many carbs.

I’m glad Dr. Clay got in on this.

Anyone have an opinion on how many carbs is too low for low days? I’m 192 lbs, at about 1900 cals and 30g carbs on low days. 2100 cals and 75g carbs on medium days. Also, if I’m about 14% bf, what should I shoot for on refeed days? [/quote]

Hey Hulk,

I’ve read so many conflicting views on this subject. What I’ve gathered so far is if you’re on an extreme cut (in terms of calories), you should probably get your money’s worth on refeed days and shoot for ~500 calories over maintenance. I’ve also heard it’s counterproductive to eat less than your maintenance calorie level because it doesn’t shock your body and provide the proper hormone, metabolic, anabolic response otherwise.

I’m on a similar cut as you…roughly 1,850 kcal a day but very low carbs. Only around 30g…but I’m cycling protein more or less…weird I know. I’m shooting for 20X’s BW (3,660) calories on my refeed day. I went way over that, like 5,000 kcal on my first and experienced extreme stomach discomfort all day.

Elusive has mentioned to experiment as this is a fairly new concept to find out what exactly works for you. Nobody’s gonna touch that guy’s refeeds. He’s the T-Nation king but he eats like a bird to “earn” it on the refeed ha!

I hope Dr. Clay weighs in on this whole concept. If you find you’re burning fat and dropping lbs. while maintaining strength, my question is a refeed even necessary? Maybe Shugart could discuss why the Velocity Diet (very low calorie/carb cycling) doesn’t have a refeed?

[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
elusive wrote:
Quick Update:

Ice Cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream on top of waffles is delicious.

Okay, carry on.

Haha. You are nuts. I could never handle that many carbs.

I’m glad Dr. Clay got in on this.

Anyone have an opinion on how many carbs is too low for low days? I’m 192 lbs, at about 1900 cals and 30g carbs on low days. 2100 cals and 75g carbs on medium days. Also, if I’m about 14% bf, what should I shoot for on refeed days? [/quote]

Like phatkins mentioned, I think you should experiment with what you can get away with. I would first start with 4 grams of carb x your Lean Body Mass (because this is the LOWEST amount I’ve seen recommended). Aim for about a gram of protein per pound and try to keep fat as low as you can. Keep an eye on the scale (measure your weight before breakfast the morning OF the refeed and see how long it takes to get back to this #). If you get back to baseline in 4 days, I would keep the refeed the same or maybe make it slightly smaller. 3 days? Keep it the same or maybe slightly larger. 2 days? Make it larger next time. Experiment with the amount of carbs until you figure out what works best for you.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I’ll start with 4 grams x lean body mass like you recommended and move on from there.

What about fiber? I read somewhere (think it was a thibs article) that the author didn’t even count carbs from veggies because they come mostly from fiber. So should I count veggie carbs in any of my days?

If you’re eating normal amounts of fiberous green veggies then I wouldn’t count it towards my totals. However, if you feel that you’re eating a ton, then I would consider adding it towards my totals.

[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys. I’ll start with 4 grams x lean body mass like you recommended and move on from there.

What about fiber? I read somewhere (think it was a thibs article) that the author didn’t even count carbs from veggies because they come mostly from fiber. So should I count veggie carbs in any of my days?[/quote]

On a huge caloric restriction (non-carb up day) I try to count every bit of food I ingest. I love spinach, especially because I can get a few tbsp of olive oil on it…but there’s a SMALL amount of carbs there. I think you should be more concerned with calories at first. Good luck on your cut man…dieting is fun…NOT!

Guys:

I was curious as to how to calculate the refeed, and I got to thinking. Based on elusive saying that, as long as the weekly caloric intake favors growth…

Say you need 20xLBM to grow, and you are cutting with 10xLBM

Factoring in a refeed once a week (every 7th day):

Amt cals per day to grow x 7 days a week = weekly amount of cals to grow

Amt cals per day to cut x 7 days per cut = weekly amount of cals for cutting

Subtract second from first to achieve the difference that needs to be consumed once a week

In my case, I am 170 and (estimated) 20% bf…I got 9,520 calories for my refeed

I am sure I need to work up to that amount and that I need to gauge the carbs, but just throwing out ideas here.

EDIT: I DID mean second from first, sorry.

P-

I may not fully understand your concept, but it appears you’d always end up with a refeed the same size of your cut. Did you mean subtract the 2nd from the 1st? Even so…it’s the same size as your weekly intake on a cut. Is that what you are going for? Also, where does the 20% come into the equation? Did someone mention T-Nation calculator? Haha!

Yeah, I’m a bit confused with what you’re suggesting Ponce… maybe its my carb coma I’m slipping into. lol. Are you thinking of a refeed cycle as a tool to cut down or add size?

Either way, I think a handy dandy refeed calculator would do the trick here! (shameless plug).