T Nation

Carbs, Cardio, Bulking

Hello from France,

please excuse my English.

As I wrote here, I recently bought Nate Miyaki’s Books (Samurai Diet, and Intermittent Feast).
I also read ‘bigger, smaller, bigger’ from Nate Green and John Berardi.

Most authors here say ‘one goal at a time’ : bulk, or cut, but don’t try to add bodyweight while loosing fat.

Miyaki, Berardi/Green, even John Meadows (I’m in his diet program for 10 weeks now) seem to use a high-calories high-carbs approach WHILE adding cardio to make LEAN gains.

Am a bit confused.
Any though ?

Mat’
PS. if I understand the scientific point of view : drop bodyfat with cardio, add lean mass with caloric surplus and refill muscle glycogen with carbs (as you perform anaerobic activity).

Would like to hear more about this topic too, its not very clear.

My interpretation was that if you have a lot of muscle to gain or alot of fat to lose, the combined approach is one step forward, one step back.

But, if you don’t have much muscle to gain (i.e already muscular), or don’t have a lot of fat to lose (i.e lean) the hybrid approach can work with intelligent programming. Like fasted bcaa walks in the morning, weights in the pm with “tight bulk” food intake on workout days, and a slight deficit on non training days but ensuring positive nitrogen balance from a high protein intake.

You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is certainly prevailing wisdom, but a few coaches seem to infer (and Thibs sometimes strait says) fat loss and muscle gain can be achieved under the right protocols and nutritional timing. Certainly not as efficient as a targeted gain/cut approach would be…

I was hoping someone that tried would chime in on their experience. Of course, it could just be more a cosmetic change than anything else. More muscle makes you look leaner or less fat makes you look more muscular giving the impression you achieved both goals simultaneously.

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is not true. It is not impossible and you are constantly losing and gaining fat and losing and gaining muscle all day long.

[quote]giograves wrote:
Would like to hear more about this topic too, its not very clear.

My interpretation was that if you have a lot of muscle to gain or alot of fat to lose, the combined approach is one step forward, one step back.
[/quote]

That would leave you in the same spot.

The usual technique especially through the 90’s was two steps forward in terms of gaining and one step back when leaning up. In other words, it was understood that during gaining, some body fat may come along with it. Losing that may cause some loss of muscle mass but you should always be moving in a positive direction, not staying in one place.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is not true. It is not impossible and you are constantly losing and gaining fat and losing and gaining muscle all day long.[/quote]

Are you saying is possible to be both catabolic and anabolic at the same time or that it happens in cycles throughout the day?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is not true. It is not impossible and you are constantly losing and gaining fat and losing and gaining muscle all day long.[/quote]

Are you saying is possible to be both catabolic and anabolic at the same time or that it happens in cycles throughout the day?[/quote]

I meant what I just wrote. Your body is doing all of that all day long. It isn’t like you gain for 2 hours and then lose for 2 hours.

That is why broscience ain’t helping y’all.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is not true. It is not impossible and you are constantly losing and gaining fat and losing and gaining muscle all day long.[/quote]

Are you saying is possible to be both catabolic and anabolic at the same time or that it happens in cycles throughout the day?[/quote]

I meant what I just wrote. Your body is doing all of that all day long. It isn’t like you gain for 2 hours and then lose for 2 hours.

That is why broscience ain’t helping y’all.[/quote]

Right, but to grow a person needs to be in a state of net anabolism rather than catabolism.

How does a person do this without getting fat?

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is certainly prevailing wisdom, but a few coaches seem to infer (and Thibs sometimes strait says) fat loss and muscle gain can be achieved under the right protocols and nutritional timing. Certainly not as efficient as a targeted gain/cut approach would be…

I was hoping someone that tried would chime in on their experience. Of course, it could just be more a cosmetic change than anything else. More muscle makes you look leaner or less fat makes you look more muscular giving the impression you achieved both goals simultaneously.

[/quote]

I’ve been able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. A few observations on this approach:

  1. Coming off a layoff really helps. I don’t lift throughout the entire year, so I’m sure the old “muscle memory” has played a role for me personally
  2. The changes haven’t been too dramatic. I look WAY better with my shirt off, but only slightly better in regular clothes.
  3. I was super skinny as a kid

The key (for me) has been to carefully track and monitor everything on the intake side (macros, calories) so I know what adjustments to make. Food choices make a huge difference for me in that when I make shitty food choices, I also eat too much.

Not saying this is the best approach or a good fit for everyone, but it’s definitely possible.

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

read Mikaki’s book ‘the Samurai Diet’…

Because of my English I can’t explain it very well.
But fat loss and aerobic activity are not the same as lean gain and anaerobic exercise. So you can combine both

Mat’

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
You CANT loose fat AND GAIN lean muscle mass at the same time, as a natty.
Its impossible, from a thermodynamic point of view.[/quote]

This is not true. It is not impossible and you are constantly losing and gaining fat and losing and gaining muscle all day long.[/quote]

Are you saying is possible to be both catabolic and anabolic at the same time or that it happens in cycles throughout the day?[/quote]

I meant what I just wrote. Your body is doing all of that all day long. It isn’t like you gain for 2 hours and then lose for 2 hours.

That is why broscience ain’t helping y’all.[/quote]

Right, but to grow a person needs to be in a state of net anabolism rather than catabolism.

How does a person do this without getting fat?[/quote]

That has too many variables to even answer. That imaginary person would NOT get fat if they work out enough or find a decent balance of food intake and output.

The problem is very few people are ever going to become truly BIG by being that restrictive with food intake unless they are strict mesomorphs.

Let me share my personal experience here, I hope it helps.

Lately I have been eating considerably less carbs (still eating a lot, though) and have witnessed a small gain in bodyweight, WHILE losing fat. I cannot tell you for sure what is going on, since I’m not on roids or test boosters/hormone optimizer, all I know is that strength is still going up and I’m feeling fuller each day.

Some further info, I have 4 meals a day and one pwo shake, that’s certainly not conventional for most people, but it works for me. I’m doing the 531 + BBB protocol, and my gains have been impressive so far.

I truly hope you can manage your macros and reach your goals. It’s all a matter of trial and error.

best of luck!

[quote]Brant2 wrote:
Lately I have been eating considerably less carbs (still eating a lot, though) and have witnessed a small gain in bodyweight, WHILE losing fat. I cannot tell you for sure what is going on[/quote]How often do you take measurements? (Waist, weight, photos, etc…)