T Nation

Carbs Around Workout = TKD?

Recently, I’ve been focusing my carb intake around my AM workout. I’m taking in 1/2 cup oats with a shake at 7am, hitting the heavy weights at 8am, then slamming another shake w/Surge around 9:15am.

The rest of the day, my meals come every 2.5-3 hours (im starving after 2 hours!) and its mainly 8-10oz chicken breast, spinach or other dark veggies, and a handful or 2 of mixed nuts.

Im curious as to if this is a targeted keto diet? Or do you need a low/no carb break in first?

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:
Recently, I’ve been focusing my carb intake around my AM workout. I’m taking in 1/2 cup oats with a shake at 7am, hitting the heavy weights at 8am, then slamming another shake w/Surge around 9:15am.

The rest of the day, my meals come every 2.5-3 hours (im starving after 2 hours!) and its mainly 8-10oz chicken breast, spinach or other dark veggies, and a handful or 2 of mixed nuts.

Im curious as to if this is a targeted keto diet? Or do you need a low/no carb break in first?[/quote]

You probably wont fall into ketosis. The oats and PWO shake will keep you out of it.

[quote]Hannibal King wrote:
aspengc8 wrote:
Recently, I’ve been focusing my carb intake around my AM workout. I’m taking in 1/2 cup oats with a shake at 7am, hitting the heavy weights at 8am, then slamming another shake w/Surge around 9:15am.

The rest of the day, my meals come every 2.5-3 hours (im starving after 2 hours!) and its mainly 8-10oz chicken breast, spinach or other dark veggies, and a handful or 2 of mixed nuts.

Im curious as to if this is a targeted keto diet? Or do you need a low/no carb break in first?

You probably wont fall into ketosis. The oats and PWO shake will keep you out of it.[/quote]

and why do you want to go into Keto. It over rated.

I don’t care what anyone says. Ketosis is NOT overrated if you’re looking for fat loss! Don’t go over 30gms of carbs/day. period. I lost 35lbs in 3 weeks by getting on a ketogenic diet. That’s not all water weight my friend. Sorry, but the Surge will kick you out of ketosis. Especially if you’re consuming any other carbs.

I have to agree with Mcniel on this one. Everyone says that ketosis is overated but I have found I do much better when going into kietosis. It gives me a lot more fat loss and it seems a lot more anti catabolic too. I’ve done it both ways and ketosis is what worked for me.

[quote]McNeil wrote:
I don’t care what anyone says. Ketosis is NOT overrated if you’re looking for fat loss! Don’t go over 30gms of carbs/day. period. I lost 35lbs in 3 weeks by getting on a ketogenic diet. That’s not all water weight my friend. Sorry, but the Surge will kick you out of ketosis. Especially if you’re consuming any other carbs. [/quote]

But the potential rebound effect is big. You could accomplish a lot in a little more time without such a worry.

And no it wasn’t all water, but a good portion of it was muscle unless you were consuming 200g/fat and 400g/p.

I prefer 40/40/20 or for quicker results, but a lot more effort 50/40/10 f/p/c.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
McNeil wrote:
I don’t care what anyone says. Ketosis is NOT overrated if you’re looking for fat loss! Don’t go over 30gms of carbs/day. period. I lost 35lbs in 3 weeks by getting on a ketogenic diet. That’s not all water weight my friend. Sorry, but the Surge will kick you out of ketosis. Especially if you’re consuming any other carbs.

But the potential rebound effect is big. You could accomplish a lot in a little more time without such a worry.

And no it wasn’t all water, but a good portion of it was muscle unless you were consuming 200g/fat and 400g/p.

I prefer 40/40/20 or for quicker results, but a lot more effort 50/40/10 f/p/c.[/quote]

35lbs in 3 weeks? Most of it was likely muscle, regardless of how much protein you had. That’s just too much too fast to be considered the “right” way. The only way it would even remotely be acceptable is if you were 100lbs or more overweight to begin with.

I prefer a non-ketogenic low-carb diet. The T-dawg diet is a very good one, similar to what you’re doing. You’ll lose the same amount of fat without being in ketosis.

It appears that everything low carb, regardless of what other components a diet may consist of, is being labled ketogenic by a lot of people these days.

Diets that rely on ketosis for their long term goals are not for athletes and especially not for strength or physique athletes IMHO.

Diets like Sasquatch and Allnatural are talking about eventually establish lipids as the primary source of metabolic fuel rather than glucose or ketones. I’m sure plenty of guys already knew that, but I thought it was worth mentioning since I see this all over the place all the time.

–Tiribulus->

[quote]McNeil wrote:
I don’t care what anyone says. Ketosis is NOT overrated if you’re looking for fat loss! Don’t go over 30gms of carbs/day. period. I lost 35lbs in 3 weeks by getting on a ketogenic diet. That’s not all water weight my friend. Sorry, but the Surge will kick you out of ketosis. Especially if you’re consuming any other carbs. [/quote]

That 30 gram rule is bullshit. Depending on your protein, fat, and total caloric intake, your carbs should fall between 0 and 20 to get into ketosis. The higher calorie, protein, and fat, the higher the carbs can go, and visa versa.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Diets like Sasquatch and Allnatural are talking about eventually establish lipids as the primary source of metabolic fuel rather than glucose or ketones.

–Tiribulus->[/quote]

It’s my understanding that three weeks into a ketogenic diet, most tissues will use use FFA for the majority of their fuel, leaving ketones for the brain to use.

[quote]Hannibal King wrote:
McNeil wrote:
I don’t care what anyone says. Ketosis is NOT overrated if you’re looking for fat loss! Don’t go over 30gms of carbs/day. period. I lost 35lbs in 3 weeks by getting on a ketogenic diet. That’s not all water weight my friend. Sorry, but the Surge will kick you out of ketosis. Especially if you’re consuming any other carbs.

That 30 gram rule is bullshit. Depending on your protein, fat, and total caloric intake, your carbs should fall between 0 and 20 to get into ketosis. The higher calorie, protein, and fat, the higher the carbs can go, and visa versa.[/quote]

well, it may or may not be bullshit… and to be honest… my carbs don’t go over 8-10 grams per day. So I think I know what ketosis is. However, I do think 30 grams is pushing it especially considering macronutrient/calorie variables. So I prefer to agree with you on this. Also, at a minimum, 60-70% of your calories should be from fat! If you think thats rediculous then go do some reading.

A note on muscle loss though… If you’re planning on competing then perhaps long term ketosis is not ideal. However, adaptive ketogenic type diets may be helpful… i.e. BodyOpus, Anabolic Diet, etc. Just go ask many of the guys in the Anabolic Diet thread… I think Dan John would also agree.

I have no care in the world to compete, I just want to look good… sure I’ve experienced muscle loss… but at the expense of losing much more fat. so boohoo! Like I said, it depends on your personal goals. Just look at Vince Gironda… are you gonna call him scrawny or say he could have looked better because of him using his maximum definition diet!!! I sure hope not. … but to each his own.

If anything, ketosis is underrated. For anyone truely interested in a low-carb approach to athletics there’s a wealth of knowledge in the Anabolic thread here and also check out the www.lowcarbmuscle.com forum. It’s my opinion based on credible scientific studies that maintaining a low carb high fat diet throughout life is more beneficial in many more ways than just fat loss.

adios

[quote]McNeil wrote:
Just go ask many of the guys in the Anabolic Diet thread…
[/quote]

I’m heading into my third month on the Anabolic Diet, but that doesn’t make me an expert any more than you eating low carb makes you an authority on ketosis. Having extensive, accurate information on a topic makes one an expert.

I’m with ya on low carb in general, but you need to show me a quote from the AD thread from one of the true veteran experts where they refer to the AD as ketogenic. I’ve read the book several times and that entire thread and that’s not what is said.

DiPasquale himself says in the interview on this very site that long term ketosis is “very catabolic”.

–Tiribulus->

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

DiPasquale himself says in the interview on this very site that long term ketosis is “very catabolic”.

–Tiribulus->[/quote]

I’m no expert, but I know many studies linked to ketosis are studies on fasting, which is obviously quite catabolic.

I trust DiPas wouldn’t make that mistake, but you never know. I think the carb cylcing diets have something over straight low-carb diets, but not for anti-catabolic purposes.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
McNeil wrote:
Just go ask many of the guys in the Anabolic Diet thread…

I’m heading into my third month on the Anabolic Diet, but that doesn’t make me an expert any more than you eating low carb makes you an authority on ketosis. Having extensive, accurate information on a topic makes one an expert.

I’m with ya on low carb in general, but you need to show me a quote from the AD thread from one of the true veteran experts where they refer to the AD as ketogenic. I’ve read the book several times and that entire thread and that’s not what is said.

DiPasquale himself says in the interview on this very site that long term ketosis is “very catabolic”.

–Tiribulus->[/quote]

yes, you’re right. sorry about that. My brief fling with the AD eventually led to my own interest in ketosis. Especially an interest in Vince Gironda’s ideas… Ketosis by no means should be used to gain muscle mass. But like I was saying… if the author of this thread wants to lose fat by getting into ketosis then go for… but you can’t be taking surge if that’s the goal. Ketosis works marvelously for Former Fat Boys!

[quote]McNeil wrote:
yes, you’re right. sorry about that. My brief fling with the AD eventually led to my own interest in ketosis. Especially an interest in Vince Gironda’s ideas… Ketosis by no means should be used to gain muscle mass. But like I was saying… if the author of this thread wants to lose fat by getting into ketosis then go for… but you can’t be taking surge if that’s the goal. Ketosis works marvelously for Former Fat Boys![/quote]

No need to apologize man. You were big enough to admit you spoke too soon that’s all. It’s just whenever low and carb show up in the same sentence ketogenic is the next thing a lot of guys start saying and practiced correctly ketosis is not the goal with plans like the AD. Replacing carbs with fat as the primary fuel source is.

@ smallnomore:
You’re right, Dr D. wouldn’t make that mistake. A lot of folks, I’m not saying you, either don’t know or forget that diets like the AD or T Dawg are only low carb part of the time. In the case of the AD 2 days a week you’re actually loading up on carbs for a variety of metabolic, hormonal and glycogen replenishing reasons.

-Tiribulus->