Carbs and Ketosis

[quote]elusive wrote:
angus_beef wrote:
elusive wrote:
DeadRamones wrote:
Allot of suggestions to stay away from ketosis, but no one’s giving a valid reason why. Can someone please man up & give some reasons? I’m relativly new to the idea of ketosis & just started doing some reading on it. Seems like there are a bunch of people blogging & on message boards that been doing zero carbs for an extensive time.
(zeroinginonhealth.com) They all swear it’s the best thing that ever happened to them.

There is no “evidence” to support bashing ketosis. I’m not sure what the intentions were of above posters, but I for one was just trying to make the point that Ketosis is NOT needed to lose fat. I feel that lots of people are under the belief, that they have to be in ketosis and eat next to no carbs to lose bodyfat. Of course this can work, but its not the only way.

There is evidence to bash ketosis. This is a survival mechanism so the mere fact that the body is in this state should be evidence enough. Anyways i will try to simplify this. The brain requires about 130g of carbs(ideal) just to function at a normal level. When you decide to go on a ketone diet and consume little to no carbs a process like this occurs :

If you consume 70g of carbs while on a ketone diet the entire consumption goes to provide the brain with glucose. The brain then needs an additional 60g. Unlike other parts of the body where fat can be used as energy, this is not possible for the brain. Fatty acids are just to big to pass through the blood brain barrier. In order to remedy this the body then converts the fatty acids into ketones, which are shorter chain fatty acids. The ketones are small enough to pass through the blood brain barrier and allow glucose to get to the brain.

All is fine initially but this cannot be sustain for long periods of time. The constant breaking down of ketones could lead to ketoacidosis. Acid levels in the body increases to dangerous levels and this could lead to dementia or a coma. To prevent this, the individual then begins to urinate alot in an attempt to get rid of the acid. The constant urination can lead to dehydration. This is pretty much why we can go 3 weeks with no food but maybe 3 days without water… This is also why people on ketone diets under the supervision of a nutritionist get their acid levels checked on a regular basis and re feeds are necessary.

Just make sure you pay attention to your body and don’t get all excited about losing fat that you ignore certain signs.

You’re making some one sided observations. You’re anti-Ketosis, I get it. I’m not Pro-Ketosis, but I think I’m looking at the subject alittle more open minded.

Ketosis is NOT good because its a survival tatic by the body and this should be evidence enough? Really? Storing fat is a also survival mechanism, the regulation of absorbtion of calcium, the conversion of Vitamin D and thousands of other processes that occur every second in our body. Are those all bad?

The brain does not have a problem using ketones for fuel and many cultures/people have done fine their whole history in ketosis (Eskimos).

Finally, you claim that ketosis can lead to ketoacidosis. Sure, but has this happened or been documented to ever happen in healthy individuals that have the biological functions that adapt and adjust to keep our bodies in homeostasis? Again, there are thousands of processes that the body does or will do to adjust and keep its internal environment the way it needs it. Yeah, the kidneys start excreting more urine. How is this different from ingesting too many water soluble vitamins or too much protein? The renal system is designed to pump out excess and waste. Dehydration shouldn’t be a problem in a weightlifting community where everyone is drinking plenty of water.

Ketosis isn’t evil. If you’re a healthy person and eating a keto diet the right way (not having everything fried in lard for example) you shouldn’t have a problem at all. [/quote]

I see you’re trying to argue semantics here. Yes breathing is a “survival mechanism” but i’m pretty sure you know what i meant. I get the feeling you believe my entire post was directed to your “no evidence” statement. My post was really directed to DeadRamones. He ask the reasoning to stay away from ketosis and these were mine.

Anyways i might as well address a few things:

I never said the brain has a problem using ketones, thats the entire purpose of the process… and what’s with everyone using Eskimos as the poster child for low carb diets. I don’t think Eskimos were squatting igloos back then. We require way more energy than Eskimos did.

For the record i’m not anti ketosis, i just think this should be used as a last resort… There are healthier ways to go about achieving the same results.

Angus, thanks for posting. I just hate it when people respond with “don’t do this, don’t do that” but never explains. Your post helped me a bit in understanding the CON side of Ketosis. LOL @ eskimos. Although they weren’t squatting igloos. They had a pretty physical life. Hunting,carrying,hiking,building shelters etc. This made up the probably half of the day. Read about it in “fat of the land” by steffason(spelling?) or any other of his stories.

[quote]angus_beef wrote:
For the record i’m not anti ketosis, i just think this should be used as a last resort… There are healthier ways to go about achieving the same results. [/quote]

I think your argument that ketosis should be a “last resort” and that there are “healthier” ways is emotive rather than based on fact. If you can argue that an alternative diet is more OPTIMUM than a ketosis-based diet then fair play.

For the record, my earlier contribution was based on theories of Jerry Brainum, which closely resembles Thibaudeau’s targeted carb approach. Then you have the cycle approach of Poliquin, etc.

I also think everyone taking part in this discussion would do well to look back at the Carb Rountable discussions. It helped me form my own opinions.

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[quote]angus_beef wrote:

I see you’re trying to argue semantics here. Yes breathing is a “survival mechanism” but i’m pretty sure you know what i meant. I get the feeling you believe my entire post was directed to your “no evidence” statement. My post was really directed to DeadRamones. He ask the reasoning to stay away from ketosis and these were mine.

Anyways i might as well address a few things:

I never said the brain has a problem using ketones, thats the entire purpose of the process… and what’s with everyone using Eskimos as the poster child for low carb diets. I don’t think Eskimos were squatting igloos back then. We require way more energy than Eskimos did.

For the record i’m not anti ketosis, i just think this should be used as a last resort… There are healthier ways to go about achieving the same results. [/quote]

Fair enough. I also completely agree with your last sentence.

I always dieted with the low-fat, higher protein and moderate carb approach. While preparing for a recent bodybuilding competition I lost my motivation using my tried-and-true approach and went looking for an alternative.

I didn’t know jack about keto diets or the numerous different approaches, but basically toyed around with my diet running carbs at about 30-45 per day with a 3 hours carb-up on Saturday afternoons. I bumped my fat up over 100 grams a day as well to make up the calories lost by dropping my carbs.

Long-story-short I got into the best shape of my life, had more strength and energy while dieting and had to go low carb and low fat the last 4 weeks just to make weight! As an aside…I am dilligent with my bloodwork and saw a significant improvement in cholesterol ratios over an 8 week period as well.