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Carbs and Ketosis

For those with adequate experience: What’s the most amount of carbs one can take in and reach ketosis? Also, how long does it usually take to reach full ketosis? Finally, when getting lean, do you prefer ketosis or carb cycling, or clean caloric deficits?

Well for myself clean caloric deficits keeps myself lean, never depleted of energy, always got energy to use and just by eating clean and in a slight deficit has alowed myself to focus more on strength gains and less on cardio which before was 5/6 times a week to now 3-4 times a week, gained 2.85kg in lean mass, dropped 1.35kg in fat, got from 8.9% to now 6.7% bodyfat, and thats just me on a normal day :slight_smile:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
For those with adequate experience: What’s the most amount of carbs one can take in and reach ketosis? Also, how long does it usually take to reach full ketosis? Finally, when getting lean, do you prefer ketosis or carb cycling, or clean caloric deficits? [/quote]

Ketosis is not a requirement for losing fat. In fact, some believe it to be counterproductive.

Don’t fall into the trap of worrying about being in ketosis. Set you macronutrient and caloric intake where it needs to be and you will lose fat.

[quote]HK24719 wrote:
Ketosis is not a requirement for losing fat.[/quote]

x2

Also, I can’t prove it but I feel like I can get into ketosis with about 80-90 grams of carbs a day.

You can always get Ketostix from your local pharmacy and test yourself to see how low you need to go. Just pee on the stick, and it’ll tell you if you’re pregnan^W in ketosis.

Okay, first off, a purely ketogenic diet is never the greatest idea (unless you’re a child with epilepsy). If this is the path you choose to go, you should include periodic refeed meals. Rob Faigen recommends that you take in <20g of TOTAL carbohydrates for a period of 1 week, the purpose being of depleteing your liver glycogen stores and therefore entering a state of ketosis. Once you’re in ketosis, it can be maintained with 30-60g of ACTIVE CHO (Total CHO - Dietary Fibre = ACTIVE CHO).

In an ideal world, ketosis can be reached in 24-48 hours. But, that is with ablsolutely no new carbohydrates coming into the system. Unfortunately, we know that can’t be a reality as any protein you injest can be partially converted to glycogen. So, in reality, the protocol given above demonstrates that it can take up to a week.

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
For those with adequate experience: What’s the most amount of carbs one can take in and reach ketosis? Also, how long does it usually take to reach full ketosis? Finally, when getting lean, do you prefer ketosis or carb cycling, or clean caloric deficits? [/quote]

Stay away from ketosis!!.. Clean caloric deficit is the healthiest way to go.

[quote]angus_beef wrote:
dnlcdstn wrote:
For those with adequate experience: What’s the most amount of carbs one can take in and reach ketosis? Also, how long does it usually take to reach full ketosis? Finally, when getting lean, do you prefer ketosis or carb cycling, or clean caloric deficits?

Stay away from ketosis!!.. Clean caloric deficit is the healthiest way to go.[/quote]

I have to agree and disagree with some of these posts. I think it ultimately depends on what your goals and situation are.
Yes clean eating is the healthiest way to go, and as D560 stated you can diet it down fairly well this way also.
For myself, I need a more drastic approach(keto cycling) to get down to let’s say 5-6% range or need to lose it quick. The clean eating will then maintain me easily at about 7-8%. But from my experience contrary to what others have found ( and I know I’ll get some heat for this) I feel I am more anticatabolic when in ketosis and also lose more fat at a quicker pace. Sometimes I even added strength and size if I hit the carb up just right. I’ve done every cutting diet combo you can think of for the past 20 yrs and this is what works best FOR ME.
But let me be clear, even though I don’t thinnk going keto is really that bad for short phases, I don’t feel that healthy or well when on it. So I only do it for for short bursts when I need drastic results.

I’ve tried many diets in my time and none have been as remotely effective as a low carb and/or a CKD approach.

If you are influenced by any of the doubters on this forum who mock low carb diets, or go on about simple calorie deficits, etc, then ask yourself this question: why does Charles Poliquin recommends a low carb approach to 80% of his clients? If you’re serious about body comp then consider curbing the carbs!

I was also wondering if eating fruit and a whey shake post workout will be suffice to at least maintain muscle? The only carbs i’m eating right now are veges and post w.o. fruit. I’m sure i get <50 grams/day overall. This sounds bad but can a weekend beer binge re-carb me for a couple days?

First, on the low carb dieting. Not all low carb diets require you to be in ketosis. Or at least full time ketosis, you might hit it once in a while. The Anabolic Diet is a great example. You eat low carbs, but not necessarily low enough to be in ketosis all the time.

And to dnlcdstn. Sure, you could use beer for your carb up. You could eat nothing but Twinkies and Coke for your carb up. But, where does eating such crap leave you? If your purpose is to lose weight, stay away from shit like that. There are articles on the site about how excessive alcohol consumption messes with your body, and how the hops in beer promote an excess of estrogen, which can slow weight loss and lead to gyno (boobies).

Beer provides no (or little) nutritional value. On the other hand, good carb sources like oatmeal, sweet potatoes, etc provide some sort of nutrition along with fiber and the carbohydrates you need. If you’re really serious about losing weight, you’ll avoid excessively bad foods.

Allot of suggestions to stay away from ketosis, but no one’s giving a valid reason why. Can someone please man up & give some reasons? I’m relativly new to the idea of ketosis & just started doing some reading on it. Seems like there are a bunch of people blogging & on message boards that been doing zero carbs for an extensive time.
(zeroinginonhealth.com) They all swear it’s the best thing that ever happened to them.

[quote]DeadRamones wrote:
Allot of suggestions to stay away from ketosis, but no one’s giving a valid reason why. Can someone please man up & give some reasons? I’m relativly new to the idea of ketosis & just started doing some reading on it. Seems like there are a bunch of people blogging & on message boards that been doing zero carbs for an extensive time.
(zeroinginonhealth.com) They all swear it’s the best thing that ever happened to them.[/quote]

There is no “evidence” to support bashing ketosis. I’m not sure what the intentions were of above posters, but I for one was just trying to make the point that Ketosis is NOT needed to lose fat. I feel that lots of people are under the belief, that they have to be in ketosis and eat next to no carbs to lose bodyfat. Of course this can work, but its not the only way.

[quote]DeadRamones wrote:
Allot of suggestions to stay away from ketosis, but no one’s giving a valid reason why. Can someone please man up & give some reasons? I’m relativly new to the idea of ketosis & just started doing some reading on it. Seems like there are a bunch of people blogging & on message boards that been doing zero carbs for an extensive time.
(zeroinginonhealth.com) They all swear it’s the best thing that ever happened to them.[/quote]

There is little evidence to downgrade the validity of ketosis. It has been said that for performance a carbs approach is optimum; while for body composition a low carbs approach is ideal. However, some research quoted by Jerry Brainum recently actually cast doubt on the former and appeared to show that even athletes can perform at their current levels once fully fat adapted. It was argued by going low carb for up to 30 days their bodies fully adjusted and they were able to perform as before while on a high carb regimen.

My argument against ketosis is that I feel like ass after 10 hours without carbs. I’d never even make it through the induction phase.

I hit ketosis in about 4 days. Some body types will respond pretty good to this diet, others not so much. What you eat on the refeeds is also important. I found when on the AD and being so restricted on carbs every day, by the time weekend came I ate total shit. Carb cycling drives me less insane. CT has talked alot about all these approaches.

So pretty much the reason it’s looked down on these post is because of the adjusting phases?
-Elusive, I agree with your post.
-JamesBrawn, That’s the sort of stuff I’m interested in. Seems like most of the stuff I read is in regards to regular folks. Very few athletes(most being marathoners) I’m still researching this subject. If anyone has any info on stuff ketosis & athletes please post.
-EasyRhino, way to stick with it body, where’s the dedication? JK
-I’ve carb cycle in the past with great results. I’m thinking of actually lowering it on the non workout days to 0. Not so I can lose weight & look shredded. The real reason is to see if there are any new health benefits. Like the zero carb people preach about. I’ve read some pro’s & con’s but I perfer to just read them as I go.

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I was also wondering if eating fruit and a whey shake post workout will be suffice to at least maintain muscle? The only carbs i’m eating right now are veges and post w.o. fruit. I’m sure i get <50 grams/day overall. This sounds bad but can a weekend beer binge re-carb me for a couple days? [/quote]

I think you seriously need to reevaluate your diet if you’re worried about consuming a piece of fruit PWO, yet are considering loading up on beer on the weeks.

As often happens, you’ve gotten so hung up on details that you’ve lost sight of the big picture.

[quote]elusive wrote:
DeadRamones wrote:
Allot of suggestions to stay away from ketosis, but no one’s giving a valid reason why. Can someone please man up & give some reasons? I’m relativly new to the idea of ketosis & just started doing some reading on it. Seems like there are a bunch of people blogging & on message boards that been doing zero carbs for an extensive time.
(zeroinginonhealth.com) They all swear it’s the best thing that ever happened to them.

There is no “evidence” to support bashing ketosis. I’m not sure what the intentions were of above posters, but I for one was just trying to make the point that Ketosis is NOT needed to lose fat. I feel that lots of people are under the belief, that they have to be in ketosis and eat next to no carbs to lose bodyfat. Of course this can work, but its not the only way.[/quote]

There is evidence to bash ketosis. This is a survival mechanism so the mere fact that the body is in this state should be evidence enough. Anyways i will try to simplify this. The brain requires about 130g of carbs(ideal) just to function at a normal level. When you decide to go on a ketone diet and consume little to no carbs a process like this occurs :

If you consume 70g of carbs while on a ketone diet the entire consumption goes to provide the brain with glucose. The brain then needs an additional 60g. Unlike other parts of the body where fat can be used as energy, this is not possible for the brain. Fatty acids are just to big to pass through the blood brain barrier. In order to remedy this the body then converts the fatty acids into ketones, which are shorter chain fatty acids. The ketones are small enough to pass through the blood brain barrier and allow glucose to get to the brain.

All is fine initially but this cannot be sustain for long periods of time. The constant breaking down of ketones could lead to ketoacidosis. Acid levels in the body increases to dangerous levels and this could lead to dementia or a coma. To prevent this, the individual then begins to urinate alot in an attempt to get rid of the acid. The constant urination can lead to dehydration. This is pretty much why we can go 3 weeks with no food but maybe 3 days without water… This is also why people on ketone diets under the supervision of a nutritionist get their acid levels checked on a regular basis and re feeds are necessary.

Just make sure you pay attention to your body and don’t get all excited about losing fat that you ignore certain signs.

[quote]angus_beef wrote:
elusive wrote:
DeadRamones wrote:
Allot of suggestions to stay away from ketosis, but no one’s giving a valid reason why. Can someone please man up & give some reasons? I’m relativly new to the idea of ketosis & just started doing some reading on it. Seems like there are a bunch of people blogging & on message boards that been doing zero carbs for an extensive time.
(zeroinginonhealth.com) They all swear it’s the best thing that ever happened to them.

There is no “evidence” to support bashing ketosis. I’m not sure what the intentions were of above posters, but I for one was just trying to make the point that Ketosis is NOT needed to lose fat. I feel that lots of people are under the belief, that they have to be in ketosis and eat next to no carbs to lose bodyfat. Of course this can work, but its not the only way.

There is evidence to bash ketosis. This is a survival mechanism so the mere fact that the body is in this state should be evidence enough. Anyways i will try to simplify this. The brain requires about 130g of carbs(ideal) just to function at a normal level. When you decide to go on a ketone diet and consume little to no carbs a process like this occurs :

If you consume 70g of carbs while on a ketone diet the entire consumption goes to provide the brain with glucose. The brain then needs an additional 60g. Unlike other parts of the body where fat can be used as energy, this is not possible for the brain. Fatty acids are just to big to pass through the blood brain barrier. In order to remedy this the body then converts the fatty acids into ketones, which are shorter chain fatty acids. The ketones are small enough to pass through the blood brain barrier and allow glucose to get to the brain.

All is fine initially but this cannot be sustain for long periods of time. The constant breaking down of ketones could lead to ketoacidosis. Acid levels in the body increases to dangerous levels and this could lead to dementia or a coma. To prevent this, the individual then begins to urinate alot in an attempt to get rid of the acid. The constant urination can lead to dehydration. This is pretty much why we can go 3 weeks with no food but maybe 3 days without water… This is also why people on ketone diets under the supervision of a nutritionist get their acid levels checked on a regular basis and re feeds are necessary.

Just make sure you pay attention to your body and don’t get all excited about losing fat that you ignore certain signs.[/quote]

You’re making some one sided observations. You’re anti-Ketosis, I get it. I’m not Pro-Ketosis, but I think I’m looking at the subject alittle more open minded.

Ketosis is NOT good because its a survival tatic by the body and this should be evidence enough? Really? Storing fat is a also survival mechanism, the regulation of absorbtion of calcium, the conversion of Vitamin D and thousands of other processes that occur every second in our body. Are those all bad?

The brain does not have a problem using ketones for fuel and many cultures/people have done fine their whole history in ketosis (Eskimos).

Finally, you claim that ketosis can lead to ketoacidosis. Sure, but has this happened or been documented to ever happen in healthy individuals that have the biological functions that adapt and adjust to keep our bodies in homeostasis? Again, there are thousands of processes that the body does or will do to adjust and keep its internal environment the way it needs it. Yeah, the kidneys start excreting more urine. How is this different from ingesting too many water soluble vitamins or too much protein? The renal system is designed to pump out excess and waste. Dehydration shouldn’t be a problem in a weightlifting community where everyone is drinking plenty of water.

Ketosis isn’t evil. If you’re a healthy person and eating a keto diet the right way (not having everything fried in lard for example) you shouldn’t have a problem at all.