Ryan, I noticed that you said you grappled. I studied BJJ for a while and we would roll 3-4 times a week. At the time I was also trying to lose fat. Initially I would just eat a normal meal after grappling, but just didn’t feel like I was recovering well at all. So I started using a post-workout shake afterwards, which was the same one I had been using after weight training (keep in mind that this was several years ago, so Surge wasn’t available - all I did was mix up whey protein and Gatorade). I found that my recovery was much better and I was still able to drop weight. Anyway, just thought I would pass this along. Try it and see if it works out for you. Good luck.
TX…You’re simply Beautiful! As I mentioned, the “refeed” idea and philosophy has always engaged me–particularly of recent–and I believe that it’s effective and has credence. However, there seems to be very little “guideline” per se, as to how one would optimally execute such. For the most part, the recommendation is to eat carbs to your heart’s delight, while minimizing fat and fructose intake. The “unlimited” constraints–or lack thereof–is what would give someone like myself a problem. That is, I’m a freak and have literally no sense of diminishing hunger or satiety. That is, my appetite can literally not be quenched by any amount of calories and/or carbs. An interesting dilemma, and I fear that it’s a consequence of the lifestyle that I lead.
I do have a few questions and comments based on some of the things you’ve put forth, TX. For example, I do agree with the timing of these meals as you’ve suggested; however, in a state of relative carbohydrate depletion, I would be led to believe that the glycolytic enzymes would be very much upregulated. That is, ready to suck up those carbos for glycogen storage in the muscle. This is the primary premise behind glycogen-depleting exercise following by carbohydrate loading. I also think that fat and protein are good to pay attention to. However, what would be the repurcussions of increasing protein intake to a larger amount (i.e. 40+g)? I also am a believer in a larger amount of carbohydrate intake, but I think the number 100 would be a good start. For me, TX, a concrete number would be a MUST, as I mentioned that going with the flow would just not be an option.
I think that the frequency of refeeds, relative leanness and depth of caloric deficit also play critical roles here as well. Thanks for shedding so much light, TX. And very specific and guided…that’s Beautiful.
Sorry for all these rampant thoughts, but I just tend to go off on tangents (grin). Oh, the Bucs, who did they play–or supposed to play–I didn’t see anyone else on the field? Awesome display of Football by the Bucs. Awesome.
I should hopefully be receiving NHE this week. I doubt that I’ll delve into it as much as I would like due to the upcoming CSCS exam, but you can bet it tops the “To Do” List. I really would enjoy discussing some of these things further with you, TX. Looking forward to our next encounter, T.
T-Rock
Hey, Ry. Looks like TX gave you and I both some excellent advice and direction. I would definitely give that a shot. In addition, this seems to be a highly individual thing. For example, your glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity will really play a role. For me, I could probably really go buck-wild on those carbs without any repurcussions. However, someone with lower carbo sensitivity might have to watch it a little closer. I do feel though that you should pay close attention as you start to implement such a schedule. This will allow you to put a finger on the precise amount and type of carbohydrate that suits you best.
As for the bran flakes, despite being the third ingredient, I wouldn’t think that they make up a majority of the carbohydrate. What’s the total sugar content per serving? And also the total carbohydrate content per serving?
Just to expand on TX’s comments regarding selection. I too am a stickler to carbs such as oats, as this would be my predominant choice. Perhaps some granola. But I know many an individual who choose very sugary, high GI, high II, highly processed/refined foods for their refeeds. As a matter of fact, an entire population of refeeding dieters sticks to kiddie cereals!
You mentioned that Joel had articles on this type of thing. The only one that I’m familiar with is the Cheater’s Diet. Is there another or only the “in-the-works” piece? I think you noticed that I’m fond of Joel and his work, and invited him to take part in the going-ons.
I do look forward to seeing what Faigin has to offer. And then to see what you’ve got in mind, that’d be beautiful, TX, beautiful.
Now, I may be reading into things too much, TX, but you’re really toying with me and teasing me. I mean first, you told me you’d be “right behind me” and now you’re talking about “working you over good.” C’mon, TX, you CANNOT do this to me, ya big tease! Just messin’ with ya, T.
T-Rock
Okay. I won’t make you wait. You want guidelines, and that’s exactly what I got out of Faigin’s book, “Natural Hormonal Balance.”
These are MY rules, meaning how I diet and do my carb refeeds.
- On normal days, carb intake is <30g. If you want to get nit-picky and giving your food a little variety is not a big deal, take those carbs in when you’re most insulin sensitive; i.e., breakfast or post-workout. My favorite low-carb foods that I add in for variety are spinach, mushrooms and kim che, which is a pickled cabbage (Korean).
- On ALL days, I take in 1.5g of protein per pound of LBM. I also take in a lot of good fat (flaxseed oil, high-dose fish oil, salmon). Fat is about 40% of my calories on a non-carb-up day. I, of course, run hypocaloric. This is just me (I’m not sure I’d recommend it to others), but I eat at what is reported (by BodyGem) as my RMR.
So I calculate minimum protein requirments (in grams) first, my carbs second, and fat third, as much as is needed to meet minimum caloric requirements.
- Carb refeeds. This is just me, but I put fat and carbs on a see-saw. When I get ready to raise carbs, I drop fat. When I do low-carb, I raise fat to make sure I’m getting enough calories. I’m sure you understand the reasoning behind this one; it’s pure Berardi (no F+C).
Amount of carbs. I like to consume my carbs on a carb refeed post-workout. 2 meals, 100g of starchy carbs each meal. Fat for the whole day is lower than normal; i.e., the only fat I get is with the meat I eat. Starchy carbs, meaning, potatoes, rice, pasta, spagetti, oatmeal. I don’t do sugary type stuff, or try not to, anyway.
Protein on the 2 carb-up meals should be kept to less than 20g each meal. This is to prevent digestive upset and allows you to take in more carbs. The 100g x 2 happens to be my numbers. That’s actually an artificial limit because Faigin doesn’t believe in limiting carbs to 100g x 2. He recommends that you treat that as a minimum. If you need or want 200g x 2 because you’re ripped at 275 pounds and can eat at that level, you’re encouraged to go for it.
Faigin recommends that you do carb-ups on Day 3 and Day 7. I do them every 4 days because by Day 4 I’ve dropped the weight that I gained from the carb up (mostly glycogen and water) and have lost additional weight, hitting another record low for me.
My carb-ups are extremely scientific. It’s not that they’re not gratifying, but I run it by the numbers. And if I run it by the numbers, I get precise, predictable, consistent results.
The reason I said you might want to read Faigin’s book before we jumped into this is that I was sure you’d have a lot of questions, and that’s what I meant by “work me over.”
The ONLY changes I will make to my diet when I start to bulk is an increase in calories. I will go from 5 meals a day to 7 meals a day. In other words, I’ll increase calories by roughly 500 calories per day, but still follow my diet as I outlined above. You CAN gain weight on a ketogenic/low-carb diet if you’re HYPERcaloric. I know because I’ve gained weight on 20g of carbs per day, back when I was doing Atkins.
Questions? (grin)
The Bran Flakes have 5g of sugar and 24g of carbs. As you guys know i will be using 2 weeks maintenence 2 weeks cutting for quite some time. Now my question is, will this work with the t-dawg? Will i be able to raise the cals every 2 weeks accordingly and maybe raise the carbs a bit, and still be able to icorporate the refeeds? Maybe going 1 refeed on miantenece weeks because of the higher caloric intake. Tampa, i’m also intrest in Faigens book. Maybe that will be next inline after i finish super training. Timbo good luck on your CSCS Exam, I’m taking that path as well.
Ryan, oatmeal is probably “better” than the bran flakes, but if you really like them, go for it. I’ve always believed in finding a way to fit in things I like, and I NEVER eat things I dislike. Of course, my eating is pretty clean even by T-Mag’s standards. But the real point is if you like bran flakes, count the carbs and calories and enjoy.
well the thing is, i live in dorms, and it is difficult to get a lot of good foods in here. So today for example Oatmeal was the bulk of my carbs. The rest were greens amounting to 151g of carbs. Maybe I’ll have bran flakes on my off days to jack the carbs up. I felt a bit sluggish today. Maybe because a small drop in carbs, or dropping a thermogenic.
Would fruit be a better choice then the bran flakes? Leading up to now, i was having about 4 peices of fruit a day, atleast. This again is due to dorms.
TX…you are simply UN-believable. You’re just a reservoir of knowledge and ready to share it all! Beautiful.
A quick question, TX, before I bite into the juicy bit you gave me to chomp on (Thanks a bunch!). You mentioned that you eat only at your RMR…this is quite astounding, as this, depending on your activity level, may account for as little as 60% and as much as 85% of your Total Daily Energy Expenditure. As a hard-training athlete, I would think that your’s would approach the 70-75% at most. But, you’ve obviously got a solid graps on what works for you. That just seems interesting to me. Okay.
First off, TX, thanks again for biting. I really didn’t mean for you to bust out with all the goodies, but I do appreciate it. I will still read the book, don’t worry (grin).
Let me give you a brief idea of what my current dieting plan looks like. I strive for 1.5g of complete protein per pound of bodyweight. My calories are set around 2850 for the time being, although this might be a bit drastic, as I am pretty sure that maintenance is upwards of 4K. After protein requirements are met, I made sure that I’m getting 15g of concentrated fish oils per day (4.5g EPA/DHA), and also a serving of salmon that will bump that to 6+g of the goodies. Also, one tbsp of flax oil and 6 capsules of CLA (i.e. 4.8g of conjugated linoleic acid). Next up, add in some carbs. I do quite well with carbs, but I’m trying–for the first time–to limit them to around/during the training period. I am taking in a half-cup oats prior to training (due to the fact that I train an hour after arising) and am taking in 25g of dextrose/maltodextrin during training and again after training. I consume 1/2 of oats in my first meal after training. The rest of my meals are protein and fat with fibrous veggies. My total carbs for the day come out to 168g, discounting fiber (i.e. 25g) is 143g, and discounting during/post-workout (i.e. 50g) is 93g. So my daily totals would be along the lines of: 2850 cals, 335 pro, 88 fat, 168 carbs.
As far as the refeeds go, I am in complete harmony with your fat-carb “see-saw” theory. It makes complete sense. As far as the protein issue, as I alluded to earlier, if the only reason for low protein is to minimize GI discomfort and allow for more carbs, this will be a non-issue for someone who cannot “fill up the tank.”
I also agree that the amount of carbohydrate should be directly related to one’s LBM, as I failed to mention earlier. When I talked about factors, this was not one that I mentioned. But, obviously, a trainee with more muscle mass can handle a much larger amount of carbohydrate.
As far as your scientific approach, TX, this is EXACTLY what I would need and want to do. I have trouble dealing with freedom. Once the floodgates open, it is very, very difficult to stop the flowing waters.
I do look forward to reading the book, TX. I guaranTEE that I will have many a question to pick at your brain. Seeing that you are compliant puts a big ol’ smile on my face.
As far as the work me over comment, I was just being a shovinistic pig, you know that. I like to mess around, T, so take it as you will.
Questions? Me? You best believe it, Missy! But I won’t pour them all out yet. I need to see what you have to say and think things over a bit.
One quickie though. Do you think that a refeed schedule could be used during the pre-contest dieting?
Thanks, Beautiful.
T-Rock
Hey, Ry. Four pieces of fruit would probably be a few too many. I would say that two would be fine, but that’s probably the upper limit for someone into body comp. The bran flakes can stay, but like TX said, the oats would be a better choice. If, in fact, there is that option. Do you have access to whole-grain or multi-grain breads? How about beans and legumes? Those would be excellent choices also.
The Refeed schedule that TX proposed will work very well during your hypocaloric weeks, Ry. As far as during your maintenance weeks, what you may consider doing, instead of actual refeeds, is having a day or two where you increase carbs and lower the amount of fat. So in and of itself, it’s a refeed but it’s not going to change total calories. So if you’re only eating 20% of calories from carbs, jack it up to 50% and make corresponding adjustments in fat intake. That should work well.
Thanks for the well wishes on the CSCS exam. I’m looking forward to it…and some Credentials (grin).
Dieting at RMR. For me it actually works out to LBM x 13. Maintenance is roughly/typically LBM x 15. Unfortunately, I just have a slow metabolism. And other than my workouts in the gym 4 days a week, I’m pretty sedentary. I was aware that RMR can be 60% of maintenance, which is why I don’t recommend that for the general population. It was just a “how I’m doing it” kinda thing.
Nothing wrong with dieting at 2850, but at your low BF% and with where you want to take your BF%, you shouldn’t be losing more than a pound a week. Actually, you should be losing at a rate of LESS THAN one pound per week. That’s your call, though. Just food for thought.
The type and amount of fats you’re getting look good. If you find you need to raise your calories, raise it in the good-fat area. Protein is dead on. Carbs I wouldn’t want to increase.
Question, you’re taking in 25g of dextrose/maltodextrin during and after your workout. Are you getting any whey protein with that?
Re the fibrous carbs, excellent, of course, and you need them and benefit from them in a variety of ways. Do you combine your fibrous carbs with meat and your fats with meat? I may have misread your post, but it sounds like you mix all three together.
Looks awesome, Timbo. Yes, I think you’re going to really enjoy the book. Don’t plan on agreeing with everything Faigin says – as an example, he doesn’t believe in counting calories or keeping a food log – but whether you agree or not, Faigin’s logic is solid and his arguments persuasive. It will definitely cause you to look deep and question everything you believe in as it relates to diet.
I take it all back. (grin) Living and trying to cook in a dorm is challenging at best. I’m all the more impressed with what you’ve been able to accomplish!!!
Ryan, your diet is extremely tight. You’ve got a lot of discipline and you’re making good choices. So go ahead with the bran flakes. Just be aware of the high fructose corn syrup thing. If it’s not affecting your progress, allow yourself a little more latitude. If you hit a plateau, tighten up a bit in the areas you know you need to. The same with the fruit – enjoy! Just do me one big favor. Make sure you’re not eating fruit as a snack (or even the bran flakes as a snack) all by themselves. Carbs should always be eaten with a protein source.
Other than that, just keep monitoring yourself and working towards your goal. You’re WAY ahead of the rest of the pack.
If you do want a little more control over your food situation, though, get a George Foreman Grill and a steamer (for the veggies). I actually cook my frozen chicken breasts in my little steamer. Heck you could even make soft or hard-boiled eggs with your steamer. Great protein snack!
Timbo-I’m gonna stick with the fruit 3x’s a week post grappling, 1 peice 3x’s a week. I think im going to go with the oatbran on my off days when i’m struggling to hit my carb #. I do have access to breads, but i thought it would be a good idea to cut them out, if not, let me know. On my past maintenence weeks i was having 3 slices a day, and 2 on cutting weeks. I thought they should be a no-go on a lo-carb diet because they are proccessed. Timbo going 50% cabrs was my origanal idea of a refeed, but I believe Tampa said i dont need a carb refead when im consuming the amound of carbs i am. About my total amount of cals, i don’t think i’ll be able to hit around 3600 i just don’t have enough food, but i think i will be able to hit 3300 maybe. Tampa- i never eat fruit or cereal by itself, I always have a protien source. Thanx Again
Hey, TX, great info. Thanks a bunch! Let me hammer away at a few points…but I’ve gotta run to class, so I have to be short.
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Not just whey protein with the malto/dextrose…hydrolyzed whey protein (VP2)!
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Re fibrous carbs…Yep, meat protein, healthy fats and fibrous veggies at those meals. Approximately 150g of broccoli or cauliflower or spinach.
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You’re right…I won’t agree with everything ANYONE says. It’s my job–as a student of the sport/lifestyle–to question everything thrown at me.
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I hear you about the RMR/caloric intake. Just that I hate when people think this is their actual Total Daily Energy Expenditure.
Thanks again, TX…gotta run!
If There is no need to carb up. How this proposal for my extra carbs… Tuesday thursday, sunday will be fruit post grappling. Monday and friday I’ll have whole grain breads, and on wednisday and saturday, i’ll have the oatbran. Le tme know If i’ve taken this to far. And Tampa, What the number of carbs that needs to be reached when refeads become neccesary?
Ryan, the plan looks good. I really wish I could talk you into eating some more green veggies, but the plan still looks good. (grin)
If you ever have to drop down around 100g of carbs per day, you’re probably going to have to incorporate carb refeeds at that point.
I do eat green veggies, as many as i can possibly get my hands on in the cafe.
Dayum! My lil’ mousie is getting tired, scrolling down this page (grin).
Ry…as long as the breads are whole-grain or multi-grain (i.e. the first ingredients), they should be great. I’ve recently come across a sugar-free whole-wheat bread with only 50 calories per slice and only 11g of carbs. Beautiful. I still think–even at maintenance–you could throw in a day or two of bumped up carbs. Just see how you feel. If you’re feeling a little “empty” then try it out. Otherwise, stick to the script as is.
TX…just another quickie to pick your brain. Re: pre-workout meals…as I mentioned, I currently have a 1/2 cup of oats and a scoop of low-carb grow an hour before training (then the drinks during and after). I get up eat, then hit the gym an hour later. I was wondering what you thought about a protein and fat meal at this time. Something like a scoop of the LC Grow and tbsp of flax or nuts. Still an hour beforehand and still with the during and post-workout nutrition as is. Let me know what you think. Thanks, babe.
T-Rock
You’re getting into subtleties, but important ones to me. I’ve heard (and believe) that whatever energy substrates you provide your body before working out are the energy substrates that your body will use for fuel WHILE working out. I’d take it as a general rule, rather than an absolute 100% rule.
It makes sense to me, though. Let’s say you take in pure carbs before you work out. The body has to create enzymes to digest and assimilate those carbs (amylase and other glycogenic enzymes). Insulin is spiked. And we know that when insulin is present, fat mobilizing hormone is NOT present. I don’t particularly want to do that to myself when I’m going to work out.
Re eating a protein and fat snack before working out, that’s exactly what I do. I eat a little protein and fat an hour and a half or so before I work out.
Along the same line, if you’ve taken in protein and fat (and haven’t spiked insulin), fat mobilizing hormone is active and fat above 12-15% of your caloric intake (during the day, not in one sitting) causes the body to secrete enzymes that mobilize fat and that are resistant to fat storage.
So now I have a question for you. You take in 143g of carbs – fiber is subtracted from total carbs – 50 post-workout, and divide your carb intake over the course of the day (correct me if I’m wrong), combining fat, protein and carbs all together in your meals. Why do you choose to do it that way versus JB’s P+F and P+C food combining?