Carb-Back Loading by John Kiefer

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Sketchboyardee wrote:
I’ve searched lots of carb back loading forums after reading the book, but I’d like to hear some different opinions about utilizing CBL while doing 2 a day workouts. I’m in the military, and I PT in the morning at 0600 (running or anaerobic training usually i.e. crossfit oriented w/o’s), and I lift (hypertrophy/volumetric training) around 1700 everyday. My morning PT usually depletes my glycogen stores for the 2nd workout of the day. What are some recommendations for restoring glycogen post workout for my 6am PT. Should I go heavy on the carbs after the morning PT?[/quote]

I’m not positive on this, but I think it takes a LOT to deplete your glycogen stores if you’re eating an ample amount of carbs. But regardless, backloads will likely be bigger for you then most, just because of all your activity.

For the morning sesh, I would let my carbs from the night previous be my fuel, maybe have coffee, Keifer coffee, whatever. After that workout, I would just have some whey, maybe some added leucine if you’re paranoid. And if you are genuinely crazy worried, have about 30g of carbs with your protein after this workout, but no more. Keifer suggests this sometimes, but more so for those trying to gain mass, lifting in the mornings, and fat loss isn’t a main concern. For you, I think it would work just because insane amount of work your doing will keep you lean enough that a few hours of slightly less-effective fat burning isn’t going to ruin you.

So re-cap:

Wake-up: Coffee, whatever
600: PT Workout
Post-WO: 50g P, 30g C
Low carb Meals until
1700: PM Training
Post-WO: Backload

I’d keep a hefty amount of carbs for your last meal of the day, too. Right before bed, so you’ll have the energy for PT[/quote]

Great advice Spidey!

Most definitely train ‘carbless’ for your first session, and then re-load in a big way after your second session.
I’ve heard Kiefer say that sometimes with hard twice a day sessions, he’ll have the trainer ingest peri workout carbs in the evening session without any problem. Plazma would be phenomenal for this.

Re the morning session: I would add some MCT’s/coconut oil (tablespoon or two) to the morning coffee Spidey outlined. Great quick energy, that helps turn on the fat burning machinery.

Good luck!

Fascinating thread, as I’ve been planning to seriously look into carb back-loading and will try it starting shortly. Thanks for all the input into this thread.

PKS, speaking of morning coffee, I was just going to ask, is Bulletproof coffee allowable during the morning fast (i.e. coffee mixed with grass-fed butter and MCT oil)?

Thanks again.

Yeah guys I wrote Kiefer coffee but others may not know what I’m talking about when I say that.

It’s just Coffee+VCO+Whey for me, but I’ve heard good stuff about Bulletproof coffee as well

[quote]Damici wrote:
Fascinating thread, as I’ve been planning to seriously look into carb back-loading and will try it starting shortly. Thanks for all the input into this thread.

PKS, speaking of morning coffee, I was just going to ask, is Bulletproof coffee allowable during the morning fast (i.e. coffee mixed with grass-fed butter and MCT oil)?

Thanks again.[/quote]

Damici, not only is it allowable, but its REQUIRED to adjust your macros in your ‘no carb’ part of the day.
A few setups could be:

  1. my setup (when I have to train in the mornings)
    -Wake at 8.30. Lots of water, sea salt, and supps. Alpha GPC immediately, maca, superfood, rhodiola, rez-v, curcumin)
    -Prepare peri workout drink. 40gms pepto-pro, 5gms citrulline malate, 10gm leucine, 10gm creatine malate.
    -9.45am, strong espresso pre training.
    -10am Start training.
    -10.15 Drink half of peri-workout drink. Sip rest of drink over the next 30-60mins.
    -11, 11.15ish. Finish workout. Have one serve powerdrive.
    -12 noon. Get to work, eat a large heaped tablespoon of coconut oil. I eat it solid.
    -12.10 make ‘Bulletproof coffee’. For me, it’s 25-35grams of grass fed butter in a black de-caf coffee. You can add heavy cream or MCT/coconut oil too if desired.
    -12.45pm first meal 10oz chicken thigh. I do not throw the fat away. I consume it. Have second round of supps, including multivitamin, 5000iu D3 and 5gm super potency fish oil. Also take 8xFA3.
    -3.30,4pm. Second decaf bulletproof coffee. Same as before.
    -5, 5.30pm. 8-10oz of red meat. 5gms fish oil. 2gm borage oil. Sometimes another 5000iu D3.

*now, depending if I’m Carb backloading that night or not:
No backloading… I would eat 8-10 large whole eggs at say 10.30pm. Fishoil before bed.
Yes, I’m backloading…have my first carb meal at like 8-9pm, with 50gms Whey Isolate/pepto pro. 10 grams creatine monohydrate. Sometimes I’ll have a second serve of powerdrive if I’m zapped.
-12ish. If backloading, eat QUICK carbs and another 40 gms pepto pro/whey isolate. 10gms creatine monohydrate, 5gm leucine, curcumin, and 5gms fish oil.
12.30 BED.

See how its saturated fat+protein earlier, then carbs+protein much later? Also, vegetable oils are out.**

If you train in the PM (preferable!), simply shift the first two protein meals an hour or two earlier and smash the carbs post workout!

Keep in mind that a morning protocol like this works well, but not optimally.
Backloading after you train in the evenings works MUCH, MUCH better than morning training from my experience. Kiefer ‘warns’ of this too.

**I recently got bloodwork back and everything was PERFECT. High HDL, low LDL, low fasted glucose etc. Immune markers perfect. Free Testosterone was good, estrogen was fine. I was stunned, as was my doc! I tell you this so you don’t stress about all that saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet. My biological age has actually improved on this diet.

Hope this helps :slight_smile:

Awesome info. Thanks PKS!

So here’s where it gets complicated for me to figure out. Maybe you can help me out with this . . .

  • Lifting days are simple. I lift in the evening (around 7:30 or 8:00 pm), so that’s simple and ideal for the CBL protocol.

However, I do muay thai training 2 or 3 days a week as well (on non-lifting days), and those days consist of EITHER:

A.) 90 minutes of muay thai training from 6:30 to 8:00 pm. (This is most common.)

  • OR -
    B.) 2 hours (2 consecutive 1-hour classes) of muay thai from 12:00 to 2:00 pm. (This is only on Saturdays.)

Couple of questions:

On day (A.), should I have the usual carb-heavy post-workout meal after muay thai training in the evening? It’s not heavy resistance training (more like a combination of endurance/HIIT-type work), so I’m not sure if that counts as deserving of the big carb load post-training . . . .

On day (B.), what I had been doing was having 2 doses of Surge Workout Fuel before/during/after the 2 hours of muay thai. Is that a good thing to continue? Also, same question: Should I have a big carb-heavy post-workout meal after this 2-hour M.T. session? (It’s also earlier in the day, keep in mind.)

Thanks again!

[quote]Damici wrote:
Awesome info. Thanks PKS!

So here’s where it gets complicated for me to figure out. Maybe you can help me out with this . . .

  • Lifting days are simple. I lift in the evening (around 7:30 or 8:00 pm), so that’s simple and ideal for the CBL protocol.

However, I do muay thai training 2 or 3 days a week as well (on non-lifting days), and those days consist of EITHER:

A.) 90 minutes of muay thai training from 6:30 to 8:00 pm. (This is most common.)

  • OR -
    B.) 2 hours (2 consecutive 1-hour classes) of muay thai from 12:00 to 2:00 pm. (This is only on Saturdays.)

Couple of questions:

On day (A.), should I have the usual carb-heavy post-workout meal after muay thai training in the evening? It’s not heavy resistance training (more like a combination of endurance/HIIT-type work), so I’m not sure if that counts as deserving of the big carb load post-training . . . .

On day (B.), what I had been doing was having 2 doses of Surge Workout Fuel before/during/after the 2 hours of muay thai. Is that a good thing to continue? Also, same question: Should I have a big carb-heavy post-workout meal after this 2-hour M.T. session? (It’s also earlier in the day, keep in mind.)

Thanks again![/quote]

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Very helpful, thanks!

So maybe I’ll use the SWF during the 90-minute evening M.T. sessions and not carb back-load afterward, which should be fine for me, based on how I’ve been feeling (and often not having carbs in the evening after that anyway).

For the 2-hour Saturday sessions, those things Kick. My. Ass., and the SWF has seemed like a saving grace, so I don’t think I’m willing to try going through that carb-less, so I’m going to opt for option (2.) on that one and stick with the SWF usage there. However, what I’ll do differently with regard to those Saturday sessions is NOT eat anything and everything under the sun for the entire rest of the day, which is what I had been doing. I’ll avoid carbs for the rest of the day, which should make a lot more sense from a fat-burning perspective.

Thanks for the advice!

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Very helpful, thanks!

So maybe I’ll use the SWF during the 90-minute evening M.T. sessions and not carb back-load afterward, which should be fine for me, based on how I’ve been feeling (and often not having carbs in the evening after that anyway).

For the 2-hour Saturday sessions, those things Kick. My. Ass., and the SWF has seemed like a saving grace, so I don’t think I’m willing to try going through that carb-less, so I’m going to opt for option (2.) on that one and stick with the SWF usage there. However, what I’ll do differently with regard to those Saturday sessions is NOT eat anything and everything under the sun for the entire rest of the day, which is what I had been doing. I’ll avoid carbs for the rest of the day, which should make a lot more sense from a fat-burning perspective.

Thanks for the advice!
[/quote]

Sounds like a great plan!

On your evening, post resistance training backloads, I’d suggest sticking to a KEY -probably THE key- component to backloading that I outlined in an earlier post. That is, DONT eat low GI carbs before bed.
Eating High GI carbs +Leucine/pepto pro before bed allows your blood sugar/insulin levels to return to baseline sooner, thus allowing/signalling your body to secrete growth hormone much earlier in the night; many HOURS earlier in fact. Doing it this way, you should wake up feeling fuller and tighter than the day before. BOOM! Enjoy :slight_smile:

[quote]PKS wrote:

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Very helpful, thanks!

So maybe I’ll use the SWF during the 90-minute evening M.T. sessions and not carb back-load afterward, which should be fine for me, based on how I’ve been feeling (and often not having carbs in the evening after that anyway).

For the 2-hour Saturday sessions, those things Kick. My. Ass., and the SWF has seemed like a saving grace, so I don’t think I’m willing to try going through that carb-less, so I’m going to opt for option (2.) on that one and stick with the SWF usage there. However, what I’ll do differently with regard to those Saturday sessions is NOT eat anything and everything under the sun for the entire rest of the day, which is what I had been doing. I’ll avoid carbs for the rest of the day, which should make a lot more sense from a fat-burning perspective.

Thanks for the advice!
[/quote]

Sounds like a great plan!

On your evening, post resistance training backloads, I’d suggest sticking to a KEY -probably THE key- component to backloading that I outlined in an earlier post. That is, DONT eat low GI carbs before bed.
Eating High GI carbs +Leucine/pepto pro before bed allows your blood sugar/insulin levels to return to baseline sooner, thus allowing/signalling your body to secrete growth hormone much earlier in the night; many HOURS earlier in fact. Doing it this way, you should wake up feeling fuller and tighter than the day before. BOOM! Enjoy :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Thanks again! Will keep that point in mind. I’ll keep you posted.

This should be interesting.

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Dammit, I forgot the most obvious question regarding these Saturday two-hour (starting at noon) muay thai sessions. Yes, I’m going to be using SWF peri-workout during those sessions, but should I eat any sort of breakfast (or whatever you want to call it) beforehand? Like a bunch of eggs, MCT oil, etc? Or whey isolate and MCT oil? Something beforehand . . . ?

Thanks again.

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Dammit, I forgot the most obvious question regarding these Saturday two-hour (starting at noon) muay thai sessions. Yes, I’m going to be using SWF peri-workout during those sessions, but should I eat any sort of breakfast (or whatever you want to call it) beforehand? Like a bunch of eggs, MCT oil, etc? Or whey isolate and MCT oil? Something beforehand . . . ?

Thanks again.[/quote]

Well that depends…

If you get up at like 8-9am I would stick to your normal dietary routine pre training and peri workout. I wouldn’t sweat it. If you perform well with carbs and protein pre workout, do it.
If however, you get up really early, like 6am, then yeah, I’d start the days calories with coconut oil/MCTs then protein. Then follow your normal dietary routine for pre and peri workout after that. On this particularly brutal training day, we don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater if your current setup is working for you.

[quote]PKS wrote:

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Dammit, I forgot the most obvious question regarding these Saturday two-hour (starting at noon) muay thai sessions. Yes, I’m going to be using SWF peri-workout during those sessions, but should I eat any sort of breakfast (or whatever you want to call it) beforehand? Like a bunch of eggs, MCT oil, etc? Or whey isolate and MCT oil? Something beforehand . . . ?

Thanks again.[/quote]

Well that depends…

If you get up at like 8-9am I would stick to your normal dietary routine pre training and peri workout. I wouldn’t sweat it. If you perform well with carbs and protein pre workout, do it.
If however, you get up really early, like 6am, then yeah, I’d start the days calories with coconut oil/MCTs then protein. Then follow your normal dietary routine for pre and peri workout after that. On this particularly brutal training day, we don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater if your current setup is working for you.
[/quote]

Ok, thanks. Makes sense. Will do the usual breakfast thing (Bulletproof coffee, perhaps with some extra MCT and/or coconut oil) and then the Surge Workout Fuel peri-workout. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again!

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

Day(A)- Yes, surge workout fuel would be fine for a hard evening muay thai session. Depending on how you feel, you could backload. It would be better to eat carbs after this session than on a complete day off, if that makes sense. You could skip the backload and eat protein/fats if you are looking to really tighten up, or felt your muscle glycogen was still topped up from your heavy resistance training day carb backload.

Day(B) Depends on your goals. Midday is an awkward time. You could do two things:

  1. Train carbless, but with some sugar free electrolytes, hydro proteins/leucine/bcaa’s even, in your system. MCT oils would be great to give you energy; caffeine would be extremely helpful here too. You could then remain carb free for the rest of the day. If your goal is to stay lean or get even leaner, this will work really well.
  2. Change nothing, use surge workout fuel liberally peri workout. It’s an awesome product for the application you are using it for. I would NOT backload after this session however. Middle of the day backloads are a big no-no. Not backloading at this time will extend the metcon fat burning effect post training and help keep insulin sensitivity high for your weight sessions backload.

Did that help?

[/quote]

Dammit, I forgot the most obvious question regarding these Saturday two-hour (starting at noon) muay thai sessions. Yes, I’m going to be using SWF peri-workout during those sessions, but should I eat any sort of breakfast (or whatever you want to call it) beforehand? Like a bunch of eggs, MCT oil, etc? Or whey isolate and MCT oil? Something beforehand . . . ?

Thanks again.[/quote]

Well that depends…

If you get up at like 8-9am I would stick to your normal dietary routine pre training and peri workout. I wouldn’t sweat it. If you perform well with carbs and protein pre workout, do it.
If however, you get up really early, like 6am, then yeah, I’d start the days calories with coconut oil/MCTs then protein. Then follow your normal dietary routine for pre and peri workout after that. On this particularly brutal training day, we don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater if your current setup is working for you.
[/quote]

Ok, thanks. Makes sense. Will do the usual breakfast thing (Bulletproof coffee, perhaps with some extra MCT and/or coconut oil) and then the Surge Workout Fuel peri-workout. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again!
[/quote]

You’re very welcome mate.

Just out of interest, what is your exact routine -waking time and diet*- on those 12-2pm Sat sessions?
Do you feel it could be better, or that you have it pretty much nailed?

*include peri workout nutrition, with types of proteins etc used

[quote]PKS wrote:

You’re very welcome mate.

Just out of interest, what is your exact routine -waking time and diet*- on those 12-2pm Sat sessions?
Do you feel it could be better, or that you have it pretty much nailed?

*include peri workout nutrition, with types of proteins etc used
[/quote]

I did the 12-2 pm muay thai today. (Especially tough pace today, but it was a great time). I’m still working on the diet plan and will have to perfect my system a bit, but here’s what I did today:

  • Woke up at 10:00 am.
  • Had Bulletproof Coffee (coffee, 2 tbsp grass-fed butter, 2 tbsp MCT oil), drinking it between 10:30 and 11:00.
  • Also had 2 tbsp coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps (Life Extension), 8,000 IU vitamin D, 1,000 mg vitamin C, a B complex cap and some liquid kelp drops (iodine).

– Muay thai from 12:00 to 2:00 pm. (General muay thai class followed by clinch class.) Starting 20 minutes beforehand, I consumed 1 serving of Surge Workout fuel during each of the two hours. (In the first hour’s SWF mix I also added a little packet of 10 grams BCAAs that I had handy to the mix.)

  • Immediately after (2:10 pm or so) I had 50 grams whey hydrolysate.

  • Showered, changed, began commute home.

  • Around 3:30 had a half rotisserie chicken and a lot of broccoli.

  • Also 1,000 mg vitamin C again, and another B complex cap.

  • Shortly after, had an iced coffee with cream and stevia.

  • Shortly after that, greens drink (Orac-Energy Greens) with 4 caps fish oil and probiotic cap.

  • Was starving by 8:30 pm (after running around town all day) and had 20 chicken wings (medium-spicy). DAMN good, though not the healthiest choice. I could have eaten 40.

  • Will probably have a micelar casein / whey hydrolysate shake before bed.

  • Will take chelated minerals and 100 mg 5-HTP before bed as well.

Felt good during muay thai! I was worried that without a big morning meal I’d be dragging, but I was fine. I think I’m going to need more overall calories on these 2-hour muay thai days, but this was a start.

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

You’re very welcome mate.

Just out of interest, what is your exact routine -waking time and diet*- on those 12-2pm Sat sessions?
Do you feel it could be better, or that you have it pretty much nailed?

*include peri workout nutrition, with types of proteins etc used
[/quote]

I did the 12-2 pm muay thai today. (Especially tough pace today, but it was a great time). I’m still working on the diet plan and will have to perfect my system a bit, but here’s what I did today:

  • Woke up at 10:00 am.
  • Had Bulletproof Coffee (coffee, 2 tbsp grass-fed butter, 2 tbsp MCT oil), drinking it between 10:30 and 11:00.
  • Also had 2 tbsp coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps (Life Extension), 8,000 IU vitamin D, 1,000 mg vitamin C, a B complex cap and some liquid kelp drops (iodine).

– Muay thai from 12:00 to 2:00 pm. (General muay thai class followed by clinch class.) Starting 20 minutes beforehand, I consumed 1 serving of Surge Workout fuel during each of the two hours. (In the first hour’s SWF mix I also added a little packet of 10 grams BCAAs that I had handy to the mix.)

  • Immediately after (2:10 pm or so) I had 50 grams whey hydrolysate.

  • Showered, changed, began commute home.

  • Around 3:30 had a half rotisserie chicken and a lot of broccoli.

  • Also 1,000 mg vitamin C again, and another B complex cap.

  • Shortly after, had an iced coffee with cream and stevia.

  • Shortly after that, greens drink (Orac-Energy Greens) with 4 caps fish oil and probiotic cap.

  • Was starving by 8:30 pm (after running around town all day) and had 20 chicken wings (medium-spicy). DAMN good, though not the healthiest choice. I could have eaten 40.

  • Will probably have a micelar casein / whey hydrolysate shake before bed.

  • Will take chelated minerals and 100 mg 5-HTP before bed as well.

Felt good during muay thai! I was worried that without a big morning meal I’d be dragging, but I was fine. I think I’m going to need more overall calories on these 2-hour muay thai days, but this was a start.[/quote]

Haha jesus you would of been starving by 8.30! Did well to hold out to then!
The only thing that I can see that needs fixing is the medium-spicy chicken wings lol. Heat that shit up bro! Hot wings are manna from heaven. :wink:

You could certainly add a whey (like 30-50gms) pulse to your pre workout routine.
Also, some added fats an hour or two post workout will help stoke the metabolic furnace you have created and also give your body some of the calories it is craving.

Remember too, if you are full of carbs and creatine from the night before, you will not feel quite as ravenous post workout. Your actual workout performance might also be better; especially the clinching component at the end.
Going light on the calories the evening before, however, could make you feel like an unfed Honey BooBoo at a Krispy Kreme store.

[quote]PKS wrote:

Haha jesus you would of been starving by 8.30! Did well to hold out to then!
The only thing that I can see that needs fixing is the medium-spicy chicken wings lol. Heat that shit up bro! Hot wings are manna from heaven. :wink:

You could certainly add a whey (like 30-50gms) pulse to your pre workout routine.
Also, some added fats an hour or two post workout will help stoke the metabolic furnace you have created and also give your body some of the calories it is craving.

Remember too, if you are full of carbs and creatine from the night before, you will not feel quite as ravenous post workout. Your actual workout performance might also be better; especially the clinching component at the end.
Going light on the calories the evening before, however, could make you feel like an unfed Honey BooBoo at a Krispy Kreme store.

[/quote]

Yeah, the wings should be hotter. :wink:

I actually had an off-day from working out the day before, so I didn’t carb up the previous night, but still felt fine. I hear you on the whey pre-workout and more fats in the afternoon. Will try that.

As for my lifting days, – (and I’ve only had 2 days of lifting so far since starting the CBL program) – I’ve been hitting the gym around 7:30 pm, working out for an hour, and having just 50 grams whey hydrolysate immediately after. I should clearly add some fast-acting carbs to that, right? Maybe Surge Recovery . . . ?

My BL meals have thus far been pernil (pork) with yellow rice and black beans, followed after a little while by a pint of Ben & Jerry’s one night. The next night was Chinese (shrimp, chicken, beef combo over white rice, and a large wonton soup), also follow by a pint of Ben & Jerry’s.

Not the healthiest of options, by I didn’t plan ahead too well for those days. And I have a feeling I could do with even more carbs on those back-loads.

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

Haha jesus you would of been starving by 8.30! Did well to hold out to then!
The only thing that I can see that needs fixing is the medium-spicy chicken wings lol. Heat that shit up bro! Hot wings are manna from heaven. :wink:

You could certainly add a whey (like 30-50gms) pulse to your pre workout routine.
Also, some added fats an hour or two post workout will help stoke the metabolic furnace you have created and also give your body some of the calories it is craving.

Remember too, if you are full of carbs and creatine from the night before, you will not feel quite as ravenous post workout. Your actual workout performance might also be better; especially the clinching component at the end.
Going light on the calories the evening before, however, could make you feel like an unfed Honey BooBoo at a Krispy Kreme store.

[/quote]

Yeah, the wings should be hotter. :wink:

I actually had an off-day from working out the day before, so I didn’t carb up the previous night, but still felt fine. I hear you on the whey pre-workout and more fats in the afternoon. Will try that.

As for my lifting days, – (and I’ve only had 2 days of lifting so far since starting the CBL program) – I’ve been hitting the gym around 7:30 pm, working out for an hour, and having just 50 grams whey hydrolysate immediately after. I should clearly add some fast-acting carbs to that, right? Maybe Surge Recovery . . . ?

My BL meals have thus far been pernil (pork) with yellow rice and black beans, followed after a little while by a pint of Ben & Jerry’s one night. The next night was Chinese (shrimp, chicken, beef combo over white rice, and a large wonton soup), also follow by a pint of Ben & Jerry’s.

Not the healthiest of options, by I didn’t plan ahead too well for those days. And I have a feeling I could do with even more carbs on those back-loads.[/quote]

I think that Surge Recovery would be an excellent addition if you only have limited time to carb up. I wouldn’t be afraid to use it intra workout at that time of he night either. Using it this way will help minimize cortisol release and give you a headstart in getting enough carbs into your system.

One small distinction re veggies and fiber on the CBL protocol.
They are sheduled to be eaten primarily in the protein+fat portion of the day. The reason being is that the fiber in the veggies lowers the overall G.I. of the carbs in a meal, which is not what we want here. Chinese food veggies (usually pretty overcooked) would be ok in moderation.
So have your beans earlier in the day if possible… bonus - it’ll leave more room for Ben & Jerry’s! #yeahhhbuddy!

I posted this question on the other carb backloading thread but didn’t get an answer. If trying to bulk is it better to backload on workout days and just increase cals or to backload everyday?

[quote]PKS wrote:

I think that Surge Recovery would be an excellent addition if you only have limited time to carb up. I wouldn’t be afraid to use it intra workout at that time of he night either. Using it this way will help minimize cortisol release and give you a headstart in getting enough carbs into your system.

One small distinction re veggies and fiber on the CBL protocol.
They are sheduled to be eaten primarily in the protein+fat portion of the day. The reason being is that the fiber in the veggies lowers the overall G.I. of the carbs in a meal, which is not what we want here. Chinese food veggies (usually pretty overcooked) would be ok in moderation.
So have your beans earlier in the day if possible… bonus - it’ll leave more room for Ben & Jerry’s! #yeahhhbuddy!
[/quote]

Thanks. Yeah, the SR seems like a no-brainer for that use. And good to know regarding the veggies in the evening!

I haven’t had a carb load since Thursday evening (60 hours or so) and man, do I look FLAT, deflated and smooth this morning! I clearly look best the morning after a big carb back-load.

[quote]emj1 wrote:
I posted this question on the other carb backloading thread but didn’t get an answer. If trying to bulk is it better to backload on workout days and just increase cals or to backload everyday? [/quote]

Yes I would backload every time you train in the evenings (4pm>) if bulking up is your goal. If you are tearing the gym up and your body needs it, you could also eat carbs on your off days too.
If you are not adding weight on the bar, or reps to your workouts consistently, add more calories. Creatine monohydrate (or malate) @ 20-30gm with each backload is highly effective. Use it.