T Nation

Car Companies: Next Move?

Guys…

I really am missing something.

Okay…we throw Billions at the Big Three to keep them solvent…

But has ANYBODY read ANYWHERE about what they propose to do to get back into the black?

And if you have read anything; how viable are these proposals?

To me, if by law, those almost 500,000 retirees and their retirement and benefits are “off limits” (unless they go bankrupt); their problems will be almost as impossible to fix as the looming Social Security Crisis.

ANY thoughts are welcome, guys!

I’m really at a loss.

Mufasa

The U.S. car industry will not be saved just because the executives get money added to their equity.
Taxpayers should not be asked to provide liquidity for the morons in charge of the auto companies.

You ask for the “next move”?
Here’s a fun fact: nobody has a clue what’s going to happen, or how to provide a good return on the taxpayers “bailout money”. NOBODY KNOWS. They just don’t want to be bankrupt, which would mean they would be out of a job.
Deficits create deficits.

BTW, I drive an Isuzu.

[quote]archiewhittaker wrote:
The U.S. car industry will not be saved just because the executives get money added to their equity.
Taxpayers should not be asked to provide liquidity for the morons in charge of the auto companies.

You ask for the “next move”?
Here’s a fun fact: nobody has a clue what’s going to happen, or how to provide a good return on the taxpayers “bailout money”. NOBODY KNOWS. They just don’t want to be bankrupt, which would mean they would be out of a job.
Deficits create deficits.

BTW, I drive an Isuzu.

[/quote]

Arch:

Regrettably, I think you’re right.

I’ve Googled and researched…and looked at the sites of people who usually comment on these things…

And nothing…no plan…no SEMBLANCE of a plan…

Nothing…

Is this “bail-out” money just delaying the inevitable…except that now the U.S. will be Billions more in debt?

This Forum is still open, guys!

Mufasa


Obama will fix everything. Not to worry…

There’s no plan to fix the car companies because it can’t be done. There is no magical fairy, as you posted in another thread.

The wave of absolute and utter collapse, from the state of California ($42 billion in the hole) to crashing banks:

"Financial Times: S&P downgrades 11 of world’s top banks
?Eleven of the world’s biggest banks were downgraded Friday by Standard & Poor’s after the ratings agency said the current downturn could be longer and deeper than previously thought.

?Six major US banks were downgraded, including JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America and Wells Fargo, as well as five banks in Europe. The agency cut its ratings on Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, and Goldman Sachs by two notches each. In Europe, S&P shaved one notch off the ratings of Barclays, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Royal Bank of Scotland and UBS.

?S&P analyst Tanya Azarchs said that, in addition to the economic woes, the banking sector’s ?lax underwriting standards due to excess competition mean this cycle will be worse than prior cycles’.?

Source: Jane Croft and Greg Farrell, Financial Times , December 19, 2008."

Military dictatorship and a complete takeover of companies, like Nazi Germany in the 1930’s — that’s our future.

I had heard that Chrysler was going to completely stop production in North America for like a month or so. I’m not really paying attention to the auto industry, as they are beyond helping IMO.

But there are those out there that say we need to save them. That even if it looks like a waste of money, we NEED a domestic auto industry. Why? I am completely satisfied driving a Japanese car. Why? Because it is q dependable ride.

No one is asking the Big Three to reinvent the wheel. All they have to do is make shit that works at an affordable price.

If Detroit could get the fucking UAW kicked out of their business, Michigan would see a revival like they have never seen before.

Kill the unions, save the industry. It’s as simple as that.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

If Detroit could get the fucking UAW kicked out of their business, Michigan would see a revival like they have never seen before.

Kill the unions, save the industry. It’s as simple as that. [/quote]

Two Six-Figure Paycheck Union Bosses Abuse Overtime:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Obama will fix everything. Not to worry…

There’s no plan to fix the car companies because it can’t be done. There is no magical fairy, as you posted in another thread.

The wave of absolute and utter collapse, from the state of California ($42 billion in the hole) to crashing banks:

"Financial Times: S&P downgrades 11 of world’s top banks
?Eleven of the world’s biggest banks were downgraded Friday by Standard & Poor’s after the ratings agency said the current downturn could be longer and deeper than previously thought.

?Six major US banks were downgraded, including JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America and Wells Fargo, as well as five banks in Europe. The agency cut its ratings on Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, and Goldman Sachs by two notches each. In Europe, S&P shaved one notch off the ratings of Barclays, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Royal Bank of Scotland and UBS.

?S&P analyst Tanya Azarchs said that, in addition to the economic woes, the banking sector’s ?lax underwriting standards due to excess competition mean this cycle will be worse than prior cycles’.?

Source: Jane Croft and Greg Farrell, Financial Times , December 19, 2008."

Military dictatorship and a complete takeover of companies, like Nazi Germany in the 1930’s — that’s our future.
[/quote]

It’s getting old, HH…

Your blame for everything is either:

  1. Obama OR

  2. Wal-Mart.

Mufasa

In my mind there are limited number of options here. We will probably continue to fund them until one of the following happens:

UAW works with gov’t to unionized all plants in this country and/or tax/tarrif non-union built makes.

and/or…

Just move all liabilities (retirement, pension, etc) to shoulders of the tax payers.

or …

Quasi nationalize the car companies ala Freddie and Fannie, or go all way ala Amtrack. Accomplishes the same as above.

Autoworkers Union Keeps $6 Million Golf Course for Members at $33 Million Lakeside Retreat

The United Auto Workers may be out of the hole now that President Bush has approved a $17 billion bailout of the U.S. auto industry, but the union isn’t out of the bunker just yet.

Even as the industry struggles with massive losses, the UAW brass continue to own and operate a $33 million lakeside retreat in Michigan, complete with a $6.4 million designer golf course. And it’s costing them millions each year.

The UAW, known more for its strikes than its slices, hosts seminars and junkets at the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center in Onaway, Mich., which is nestled on “1,000 heavily forested acres” on Michigan’s Black Lake, according to its Web site.

But the Black Lake club and retreat, which are among the union’s biggest fixed assets, have lost $23 million in the past five years alone, a heavy albatross around the union’s neck as it tries to manage a multibillion-dollar pension plan crisis.

Critics call it a resort for union leaders that wastes money from union dues.

“It’s their members’ money that they’re spending on this thing,” said Justin Wilson, managing director of the Center for Union Facts, a union watchdog group. “The union has bigger issues at hand than managing a golf course.”

Managing the course may become a burden for the union. The UAW covers costs for the Reuther Center from the interest it earns on its strike fund, according to tax documents, but massive losses in the past five years have forced the union to make heavy loans to keep the center afloat. Critics call it a poor investment for a group with over $1.25 billion in assets.

“Unions certainly have had real estate investments in the past, but investments are supposed to make money, not bleed money,” said Wilson.

The UAW did not return calls from FOXNews.com, and a spokesman could not be reached for comment.

The Reuther Center is open 11 months of the year to offer courses on leadership, political action, civil rights and other topics; it hosts nearly 10,000 visitors annually. The UAW says it sends workers there to “learn, experience unionism (and) commit to labor’s cause,” according to their Web site.

The center was purchased in 1967 and underwent massive renovations in the '90s under the careful watch of former UAW president Steve Yokich. “Today’s Black Lake might not exist if not for Steve Yokich,” said union member Bob Reidt, whom Yokich appointed as Black Lake’s director. “Yokich is responsible for rebuilding Black Lake.”

The UAW erected a monument to its longtime president Walter Reuther ? the center’s namesake ? which bears an inscription of his words: “There is no greater calling than to serve your brother. There is no greater satisfaction than to have done it well.”

But Reuther, who died in a plane crash en route to the center in 1970, never knew the satisfaction of Black Lake’s “well-groomed fairways,” a course that Michigan Golf Magazine called a “stunning visual marvel.”

Union members can play golf at discounted rates on one of the country’s top 100 courses, designed in 2000 by famed course architect Rees Jones at a cost of $6 million.

The center has a storied history. Reuther had his ashes scattered at the site, and Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz honeymooned there in 1940, well before it was bought by the UAW.

“It’s funny that they call it an education center ? it’s a resort,” said Wilson. “If I was a union member, I would prefer that they rented out a room at the Ramada Inn.”

http://tinyurl.com/7aremg

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Obama will fix everything. Not to worry…

There’s no plan to fix the car companies because it can’t be done. There is no magical fairy, as you posted in another thread.

The wave of absolute and utter collapse, from the state of California ($42 billion in the hole) to crashing banks:

"Financial Times: S&P downgrades 11 of world’s top banks
?Eleven of the world’s biggest banks were downgraded Friday by Standard & Poor’s after the ratings agency said the current downturn could be longer and deeper than previously thought.

?Six major US banks were downgraded, including JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America and Wells Fargo, as well as five banks in Europe. The agency cut its ratings on Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, and Goldman Sachs by two notches each. In Europe, S&P shaved one notch off the ratings of Barclays, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Royal Bank of Scotland and UBS.

?S&P analyst Tanya Azarchs said that, in addition to the economic woes, the banking sector’s ?lax underwriting standards due to excess competition mean this cycle will be worse than prior cycles’.?

Source: Jane Croft and Greg Farrell, Financial Times , December 19, 2008."

Military dictatorship and a complete takeover of companies, like Nazi Germany in the 1930’s — that’s our future.

It’s getting old, HH…

Your blame for everything is either:

  1. Obama OR

  2. Wal-Mart.

Mufasa
[/quote]

Hmmm…one might think then that those two entities have something in common. What could it be?

And how does the cartoon impugn Obama?

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Guys…

I really am missing something.

Okay…we throw Billions at the Big Three to keep them solvent…

But has ANYBODY read ANYWHERE about what they propose to do to get back into the black?

And if you have read anything; how viable are these proposals?

To me, if by law, those almost 500,000 retirees and their retirement and benefits are “off limits” (unless they go bankrupt); their problems will be almost as impossible to fix as the looming Social Security Crisis.

ANY thoughts are welcome, guys!

I’m really at a loss.

Mufasa

[/quote]

The Atlantic had an interesting article about the Chevy Volt a few months ago, looks very different now in light of gas prices, and I doubt it is a game-changer, but worth finding on their website and reading anyhow.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Guys…

I really am missing something.

Okay…we throw Billions at the Big Three to keep them solvent…

But has ANYBODY read ANYWHERE about what they propose to do to get back into the black?

And if you have read anything; how viable are these proposals?

To me, if by law, those almost 500,000 retirees and their retirement and benefits are “off limits” (unless they go bankrupt); their problems will be almost as impossible to fix as the looming Social Security Crisis.

ANY thoughts are welcome, guys!

I’m really at a loss.

Mufasa

The Atlantic had an interesting article about the Chevy Volt a few months ago, looks very different now in light of gas prices, and I doubt it is a game-changer, but worth finding on their website and reading anyhow.[/quote]

Their problems have very little to do with their product. Electric is a niche play right now and would probably cost them money with their current business practices.

They still sell a shit load of trucks, SUVs, and vans. They need to focus on getting there opex costs down, not going further in the hole with more capex.

Take the money and run!

I was watching tv the other day when I saw a GM ad. It struck me as ironic to realize I just paid to advertise to myself.

LOL^ that is a cool concept. Of course if you drove a GM you would have paid twice.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was watching tv the other day when I saw a GM ad. It struck me as ironic to realize I just paid to advertise to myself.[/quote]

LOL!

Something similar with the “GMAC” College Football Bowl, Duce!

I told a friend “Shouldn’t we be getting a suite, booth, free ticket…SOMETHING…since we were paying for it?”

Mufasa

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was watching tv the other day when I saw a GM ad. It struck me as ironic to realize I just paid to advertise to myself.[/quote]

Well now you should do the really patriotic thing and go and purchase one of these vehicles that you also paid to have built.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
I was watching tv the other day when I saw a GM ad. It struck me as ironic to realize I just paid to advertise to myself.

Well now you should do the really patriotic thing and go and purchase one of these vehicles that you also paid to have built.[/quote]

considering i’m partial owner of the company, shouldn’t I get some sort of discount? At least a “sorry we stole your money to pay for our mistakes” discount?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Military dictatorship and a complete takeover of companies, like Nazi Germany in the 1930’s — that’s our future.

[/quote]

it’s good to know i’m not the only one with this opinion. although dictatorship is a little far… i think we’ll only be communist. the glass is half full…

I think they will fail. All 3 of them. The will enter bankruptcy and then come out of it with reduced liabilities and most likely non union workers. If they don’t then they stay closed.