T Nation

Captives Whom Your Right Hands Possess


"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you..." Surah 4:24

Ibn Kathir's commentary:

Can you imagine living in a country where you have to worry about things like this happening if you're a non-Muslim?

This is not unique to Pakistan, btw:



[Edit: Here's the Beslan story:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=7BD5FD4E-81C2-49E9-A1CA-232A9B26ADE7 ]


Can you imagine living in a country where you worry about things not actually happening?

I thought you would have bigger fish to fry.


No, PRCalDude has a legitimate agenda. The quicker we at T-Nation come to realize that Islam is a bad, bad religion, the safer and happier the world will be.


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You see me casting any stones?

And anyway, half the time I'm not promoting anything, just taking a strong position on something or another to see who disagrees with me, and why. In other words, just because I'm cheering for one of the dogs in the fight, it doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is mine.

I happen to be picking on PRCalDude because he keeps implying that I'm a 'Patriot' for not wholeheartedly joining his Crusade, then skedaddling whenever I ask him what a 'Patriot' is. I suspect that it's not meant to be a compliment, but I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.


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It's amazing how well that correlates with middle-aged Muhammad's marriage to six-year-old Aisha and his consummation of that marriage when she was nine, isn't it?

Other calculations of the marriage age of Aisha put her at 10, which is what the Saudis are allowing here (surprise!)


Oh, I think my 'agenda' has had the opposite effect on you. It seems that, in Islam, we've finally found a religion with which you agree 100%. It's probably time for you to see an Imam and recite the shahada and have your first name changed.


Well, since my first name has a Semitic root, it wouldn't have to be changed too much. And since I had to listen to the adhan about a million times blared from loudspeakers all over bloody Indonesia, I could recite the shahada as perfectly as Barak Obama if I wanted to. But nah, I'll pass.

First off, I'm too fond of bacon, lobster, and beer.

Plus, I really have no desire whatsoever to fast from sunup to sundown for a month, I don't really want to prostrate myself five times a day in the direction of Saudi Arabia, nor ever make a pilgrimage there, and I'd really rather not give a percentage of my net worth to the mosque every year.

So you see, Islam just isn't for me.

But like I told you, I've got too many Muslim friends to want to join in with your blanket condemnation of their religion. What I will say is that people have always done horrible, unconscionable things, which they have sought to justify with their holy scriptures. These days, a great many of those people use the Qur'an.

I really don't think, though, that the practical result of our relative ideologies is terribly different. If, as perhaps you fear it eventually will, the armed jihad rumbles through the streets of Anytown, USA, I will be right next to you, shooting every mujahid I can get my sights on.

I wouldn't go so far, however, as to take part in a Serbian-style cleanse, slaughtering every Muslim man, woman and child I could find. Neither, I trust, would you.


By the way, what's a 'Patriot?'


Bad things happen because of religion - Thread # 9001

(It's over 9000!)


What! over 9000 there's no way that could be right.


All I'm gonna say on Islam is.... it scares me. Its scares me because I can't understand why so many crazied people have rallied behind a single religion. I don't know if it's the people or the religion people but somthing is wrong.


Then you are more honest than most.


A large group of guys named "Pat" roaming the streets and looting.


Are they all wearing Grateful Dead T-Shirts?


- Conversion to Islam does not, nor has it ever required the presence of an Imam.

  • Lobster is not forbidden in Islam. Some theorize that it is makrooh (i.e: not recommended) based on some dubious Hadith.

"Lawful to you is (the pursuit of) water­game and its use for food - for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel [..]" -- Quran 5:96

  • There is no civil code in Saudi Arabia. Such matters are left to self-proclaimed religious experts which the majority considers as hacks.

  • The zakat is only given to a mosque (note the indefinite article) for convenience. The idea behind it is to free one's self from greed by kicking down a couple of points from your money to the poor.

"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed in that purpose; for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah. and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." -- Quran 9:60

  • 9001 is strictly superior to 9000.

  • People are scared of that which they do not understand. Ironically, this might as well be straight from Richard Dawkins' mouth.

  • A patriot is a person with strong positive emotions towards a country. The concept may be linked to riots. Any connection our resident communism-fleeing Pat is purely coincidental.


What does this have to do with what Islam itself teaches? What does this have to do with how the 4 Schools view the sword verse, Surah 9:29, and 9:111 (which has been especially represented with the recent Gaza unpleasantness)?

There's a difference between "seeking to justify" and "justifying". If I seek to justify "warfare for the spread of religion" under the various moral obligations of the New Testament, I'll fail miserably. If I seek to do so using the behavior of the prophet of Islam and the interpretations of the 4 Schools of said behavior, I'll succeed wildly. I can't point to Jesus' behavior and say, "See, now I too can go on a holy war." Muslims can point to Muhammad's behavior and its history of exegesis and do so. The fact that individual Muslims do no engage in this behavior, (in spite of what the religion has historically taught), does not change this one iota.

In fact, it's funny that you should mention Indonesia, as it is a place of persecution of non-Muslim minorities, again in accordance with all of Muhammad's behavior and his shari'ah:

Well, it's already here, preached at numerous mosques around the country ever Friday. The recent Jew-hate rallies and attacks in Chicago and New York should be evidence of this to you. Also, the Muslim Brotherhood and CAIR (which has had numerous members be convicted of terrorism and is an unindicted co-conspirator in teh Holy Land Foundation terror trial) are active in the United States. What would constitute 'armed jihad,' in your estimation?

I doubt your assertion that you will be 'right next to (me)' very much. In fact, I could much sooner believe that you will be shooting AT me rather than WITH me, given your tendency to uncritically side with jihadists globally in every instance of jihad we've discussed.


Well, then, one down, two to go. I suppose I might get by with turkey bacon, but the beer thing is a pretty big sticking point. :wink:

See, I actually knew that. Of course, I also recall that the zakat must be paid in gold or silver bullion. Did you ever read those books I sent you?

Well, I know what a patriot is, and would have been proud to be so called by Mr. CalDude.

What I'm wanting to know is just what a 'Patriot' (capital P, single quotes) might be. PRCalDude keeps implying that I am a 'Patriot', and that people so classified have never met an Islamic group they didn't like.

Now, I've been around a bit, and I have in my travels encountered a few Islamic groups that I didn't particularly care for, which, according to PR's reasoning, should disqualify me for 'Patriot' status, but I wanted to hear his definition of the term before deciding whether to be insulted or pleased.


Sigh. Well, I tried.