Can't Gain In the Right Places

[quote]Professor X wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
At 6ft 1 and 185, I don’t think the OP is quite ready for this yet. His main need is overall mass.

And you think isolation exercises cause someone to not gain overall mass? I can only say I am glad I didn’t have this line of thinking thrown at me when I started. That may be why I didn’t have all of these problems. This shit is common sense. Anyone will have lagging muscle groups if they do NO isolation exercises AT ALL. Some of you sound like you listen to some of the stuff you read way more than you listen to your own body. [/quote]

I completely agree with this. “Listening” to one’s own body should take precedent over following any sort of cookie cutter routine that they find on the internet or in a book, regardless of how convincing the “logic” behind any such routine is.

I do have a caveat to this though. Most people don’t have a fucking clue what to listen for. They need to first “learn how to listen” to their body by developing greater sensory acuity within their kinesthic, or tacile, representation system.

FEEL the muscles being involved in the exercise you’re doing, DON’T recall the picture of it you saw in some article while you’re doing it.

Just walk into any gym and see all of the trainees who have mind-boggling muscleo-skeletal imbalances, terribly impinged shoulders, and pronounced kyphotic, lordosic, and scoliosic spines.

Everyone thinks they are a champ in their own minds, but very few of them even know how to FEEL the muscles being worked. Even fewer of them have any idea what a “healthy”, properly functioning body should even FEEL like. Hence, they have do idea how to even start listening to their bodies.

OP, you mentioned that you don’t do flat bench because you have shoulder problems. Don’t you think your main worry should be taking care of that?

Fixing any scapular winging or muscle imbalances within the rotator cuff and adding in the neccessay soft-tissue work/dynamic&static stretching to get and keep your shoulders functioning properly is an absolute pre-req to building huges delts.

Wouldn’t you agree?

Also, please be wary of some of John Berardi’s articles. A few tend to be written with a very all-or-nothing mindset (i.e. I HAVE to be 5%bf year-round!). Also the fact that he repeatedly goes out of his way to use his (former) stats of 200-210lbs, 5%bf in practically every nutritional paradigm he creates gives off the false impression that keeping that bf year-round is something a sane person can do.

Last I read, even salad-obessed , fat-phobic Berardi was toting around a “whooping” 10%bf. (Not that I have a problem with the author or that there is anything wrong with the info in his articles…)

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I didn’t misunderstand you at all. [/quote]

I still think you did. We aren’t that far apart on this, but I’m convinced you haven’t a clue where I’m coming from.

Eventually, yes. But someone who can’t even handle 5x5 of three or four exercises has a long way to go. [quote]

That includes the suddenly hated “isolation exercises” that people are somehow mistaking for some right of passage when most people don’t need to be avoiding all movements like that.

Unless someone is so weak that they don’t even have average strength for an untrained person, they need to work everything. That includes lateral delt raises and direct triceps training. [/quote]
No problem with this. My suggestion is that OP probably is average or below average, based on what he has told us. In addition, I suspect your perception of the strength of an averaged untrained person is biased by the company you keep.

Military types might not be noted for their huge muscles (honourable exception in your case) but sure as hell not many of them would have less than the strength of an average untrained person. [quote]

This fad has gotten a little out of hand when you won’t find many bodybuilders over the last 50 years who approached training that way unless they started as strict powerlifters.[/quote]

Or the countless football players and other athletes trained by the likes of Bill Starr and Mark Rippetoe.

I like you, Prof, but I think sometimes you get a bit dogmatic about training. Your way ain’t the only way. What works for you sure as hell wouldn’t work for me.

[quote]Meta-Monster wrote:
I do have a caveat to this though. Most people don’t have a fucking clue what to listen for. They need to first “learn how to listen” to their body by developing greater sensory acuity within their kinesthic, or tacile, representation system.

FEEL the muscles being involved in the exercise you’re doing, DON’T recall the picture of it you saw in some article while you’re doing it.

Just walk into any gym and see all of the trainees who have mind-boggling muscleo-skeletal imbalances, terribly impinged shoulders, and pronounced kyphotic, lordosic, and scoliosic spines.

Everyone thinks they are a champ in their own minds, but very few of them even know how to FEEL the muscles being worked. Even fewer of them have any idea what a “healthy”, properly functioning body should even FEEL like. Hence, they have do idea how to even start listening to their bodies.

OP, you mentioned that you don’t do flat bench because you have shoulder problems. Don’t you think your main worry should be taking care of that?

Fixing any scapular winging or muscle imbalances within the rotator cuff and adding in the neccessay soft-tissue work/dynamic&static stretching to get and keep your shoulders functioning properly is an absolute pre-req to building huges delts.

Wouldn’t you agree?

Also, please be wary of some of John Berardi’s articles. A few tend to be written with a very all-or-nothing mindset (i.e. I HAVE to be 5%bf year-round!). Also the fact that he repeatedly goes out of his way to use his (former) stats of 200-210lbs, 5%bf in practically every nutritional paradigm he creates gives off the false impression that keeping that bf year-round is something a sane person can do.

Last I read, even salad-obessed , fat-phobic Berardi was toting around a “whooping” 10%bf. (Not that I have a problem with the author or that there is anything wrong with the info in his articles…) [/quote]

Good post.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I didn’t misunderstand you at all.

I still think you did. We aren’t that far apart on this, but I’m convinced you haven’t a clue where I’m coming from.

The “biggest bang for his buck” is learning how to work everything.

Eventually, yes. But someone who can’t even handle 5x5 of three or four exercises has a long way to go.

That includes the suddenly hated “isolation exercises” that people are somehow mistaking for some right of passage when most people don’t need to be avoiding all movements like that.

Unless someone is so weak that they don’t even have average strength for an untrained person, they need to work everything. That includes lateral delt raises and direct triceps training.
No problem with this. My suggestion is that OP probably is average or below average, based on what he has told us. In addition, I suspect your perception of the strength of an averaged untrained person is biased by the company you keep.

Military types might not be noted for their huge muscles (honourable exception in your case) but sure as hell not many of them would have less than the strength of an average untrained person.

This fad has gotten a little out of hand when you won’t find many bodybuilders over the last 50 years who approached training that way unless they started as strict powerlifters.

Or the countless football players and other athletes trained by the likes of Bill Starr and Mark Rippetoe.

I like you, Prof, but I think sometimes you get a bit dogmatic about training. Your way ain’t the only way. What works for you sure as hell wouldn’t work for me.
[/quote]

Wait, I was dogmatic? I’m not the one telling someone to avoid isolation movements because of some idea that this will hold him back. The entire idea of avoiding those movements being thrown at nearly everyone who logs in is what is “dogmatic”.

How you somehow warped that and tossed it back at those trying to reverse this mass brain washing makes me wonder about your own progress.

Without pics, it’s hard to say, but here’s what I’m picturing-

Slumping shoulders, rounded upper back, and this is creating the illusion of chest mass, but also looks dumpy.

Is that about right?

Wow lots of good conversation, I cant believe they wanted to get rid of these boards.

For off anyone thats wants pictures give me an email address and I will send it.

I agree with a lot being said.

The reason I say diet isnt an issue is because I am and can pretty easiy gain weight. So the calories are there , the protein, is there, yes its more complicated but I like to eat healthy evem when I am bulking. So I am eating enough to grow.

So the training is the problem but its not from lack of effort, planning, etc. I have made gains they are just not ideal or very good. I stick with programs too, normally for about 5 weeks and then I change. I try and keep Squats and/or Deads in my workouts at all times.

All I know is when I gain weight most of it seems to go to chest first, then stomach especially right in the front. I do get some gains in other spots but I get no shoulder width to offset the bigger chest . I get up to 195 or so, I get some negative feedback and I go back down.

I keep thinking I am doing something wrong. I know I am going to gain some fat, I know my chest is going to get big but if I can limit these two get a little width then I can go lot higher in weight and when I come down I want look like the pictures I have at 175lbs and no muscle.

HERE WAS MY WORKOUT TODAY . Back is about 80% so i still cant do squats yet but I am close (or deads but I dont know if I will go back to that for awhile)

Chins ups plus 10lbs 5x5

Supported T Rows 180lbs 2x10

Leg Press 360lbs 2x20 (keeping reps highs to use lighter weights for my back)

Leg curls 110lbs 3x10

DB curls 2x12

Wt abs 5x5

I am going to go back and re-read what was said and come up with my next workout after next week (my 5th on this routine)

Thanks

I try very hard to not round shoulders. My chest got big as soon as I trained in 10th grade. I loved it at first, got some attention for it but now its not a great look unless I can bring the rest of the body up to par.

I got down to 175lbs on purpose, to get lean and not have that look. But now I realize that I look like a runner not someone that works out.

One thing I do notice is I feel my chest working during a lot of exercises. Like today during pull ups I focused real hard on my back, I felt it but I could also feel the chest as much as say the biceps.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Without pics, it’s hard to say, but here’s what I’m picturing-

Slumping shoulders, rounded upper back, and this is creating the illusion of chest mass, but also looks dumpy.

Is that about right?
[/quote]

I still really do think that some version of a push, pull, legs split with some isos after compounds is ideal for most people for a while. With some “variations on a theme” type tweaking as you learn.

“Listening to your body”, something I firmly believe in and think is THE number one missing component in most peoples training is a combination of the following not necessarily in order of importance:

Education > You have to learn what muscles do what and what movements make them do it… in a nutshell.

Mind Muscle Connection > You have to be able to concentrate during the movements on how well what you’re doing is working what you want it to. This depends on accurate education in the first place. Knowing how to interpret what you’re feeling and this means at least some pain/discomfort… in other words hard work.

Patience > Even if you master the first 2 points only time will reveal if the conclusions you’re reaching are truly optimal. In this light what you really like doing or have come to trust may turn out to be wrong for you over time which brings me to the next point.

Self Honesty > You have to be willing to abandon some long held or oft repeated beliefs if necessary and adopt some “heresy” if need be. It depends on how bad you want to progress.

Pragmatism > Along with the last point you have to be willing to do what you learn even if it means using equipment, exercises, techniques etc. regardless of how cool, macho, popular etc. they may or may not be. If it works for you that’s all that should matter.

Independent Thought > All of this adds up to eventually being able to determine for yourself a unique plan of attack designed by you for you and not blindly believing that anybody else in the world could’ve done it better. Learn from everybody (some more than others obviously) follow nobody.

Intuition > The ability to tie all this together into a working a philosophy. Maybe intuition should’ve been first. This is innate. Some guys will “get it” with relative ease and some never will. I think this new guy who calls himself “IQ” from England is an example of someone with a generous dose of innate intuition.

There’s my sermon for today, something I hadn’t planned, but it just came to me. Agree, disargree, add, subtract, ignore, flame as you see fit.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I still really do think that some version of a push, pull, legs split with some isos after compounds is ideal for most people for a while. With some “variations on a theme” type tweaking as you learn.

“Listening to your body”, something I firmly believe in and think is THE number one missing component in most peoples training is a combination of the following not necessarily in order of importance:

Education > You have to learn what muscles do what and what movements make them do it… in a nutshell.

Mind Muscle Connection > You have to be able to concentrate during the movements on how well what you’re doing is working what you want it to. This depends on accurate education in the first place. Knowing how to interpret what you’re feeling and this means at least some pain/discomfort… in other words hard work.

Patience > Even if you master the first 2 points only time will reveal if the conclusions you’re reaching are truly optimal. In this light what you really like doing or have come to trust may turn out to be wrong for you over time which brings me to the next point.

Self Honesty > You have to be willing to abandon some long held or oft repeated beliefs if necessary and adopt some “heresy” if need be. It depends on how bad you want to progress.

Pragmatism > Along with the last point you have to be willing to do what you learn even if it means using equipment, exercises, techniques etc. regardless of how cool, macho, popular etc. they may or may not be. If it works for you that’s all that should matter.

Independent Thought > All of this adds up to eventually being able to determine for yourself a unique plan of attack designed by you for you and not blindly believing that anybody else in the world could’ve done it better. Learn from everybody (some more than others obviously) follow nobody.

Intuition > The ability to tie all this together into a working a philosophy. Maybe intuition should’ve been first. This is innate. Some guys will “get it” with relative ease and some never will. I think this new guy who calls himself “IQ” from England is an example of someone with a generous dose of innate intuition.

There’s my sermon for today, something I hadn’t planned, but it just came to me. Agree, disargree, add, subtract, ignore, flame as you see fit.[/quote]

Wow. Great post.

[quote]Eric22 wrote:
Wow lots of good conversation, I cant believe they wanted to get rid of these boards.

For off anyone thats wants pictures give me an email address and I will send it.

I agree with a lot being said.

The reason I say diet isnt an issue is because I am and can pretty easiy gain weight. So the calories are there , the protein, is there, yes its more complicated but I like to eat healthy evem when I am bulking. So I am eating enough to grow.

So the training is the problem but its not from lack of effort, planning, etc. I have made gains they are just not ideal or very good. I stick with programs too, normally for about 5 weeks and then I change. I try and keep Squats and/or Deads in my workouts at all times.

All I know is when I gain weight most of it seems to go to chest first, then stomach especially right in the front. I do get some gains in other spots but I get no shoulder width to offset the bigger chest . I get up to 195 or so, I get some negative feedback and I go back down.

I keep thinking I am doing something wrong. I know I am going to gain some fat, I know my chest is going to get big but if I can limit these two get a little width then I can go lot higher in weight and when I come down I want look like the pictures I have at 175lbs and no muscle.

HERE WAS MY WORKOUT TODAY . Back is about 80% so i still cant do squats yet but I am close (or deads but I dont know if I will go back to that for awhile)

Chins ups plus 10lbs 5x5

Supported T Rows 180lbs 2x10

Leg Press 360lbs 2x20 (keeping reps highs to use lighter weights for my back)

Leg curls 110lbs 3x10

DB curls 2x12

Wt abs 5x5

I am going to go back and re-read what was said and come up with my next workout after next week (my 5th on this routine)

Thanks [/quote]

If you want people to give you their opinions on your situation I think it’s best if you post your pics within your thread.

If you don’t want your pics “floating around on the internet”, then just blackout your face with MS Paint or Photoshop.

I know what the comments will be, I rather not. I would email it to anyone who wants just to show you I am not messing around though.

The pictures I have are 5 month and 10 lbs ago.

what is with the idea that isolation exercises GIVE YOU NO MUSCLE MASS!! Why when you say isolation exercise, people say"BY GOD WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!! YOU CAN’T GAIN RESPECTABLE MUSCLE MASS IF YOU HAVE ISOLATION EXERCISES IN YOUR WORKOUT!!! AAAARRGGG!" now the preceding was obviously an exageration but it still got the point across of basically what was said.

And by the way, how is training by using ALL the tools you have before you(free weights, machines, compound exercises, isolation exercises, etc.) dogmatic. that is the biggest paradox i have ever seen. No isolation is dogmatic.

Just add in a little more shoulder work to your current routine and see what happens.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Wait, I was dogmatic? [/quote]

I didn’t say you were in this instance. But sometimes I think you are. And you’re the one who attacked what I suggested, (or what you thought I suggested) rather than the other way round.

Neither am I. You seem to think I am against isolation movements under any circumstances. I am not. However, for some people at some stages of their lifting, a focus on the big exercises (even if that means excluding isolation moves for a while) is more productive. (IMHO of course, but I have at least the evidence of my own progress to back me up.

Also, it would appear that guys who design and promote programs like 5x5 are in agreement. And they are experienced and well respected strength coaches.

A good straw man. [quote]

How you somehow warped that and tossed it back at those trying to reverse this mass brain washing makes me wonder about your own progress.[/quote]

This veiled ad hominem attack is unworthy of you.

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
what is with the idea that isolation exercises GIVE YOU NO MUSCLE MASS!! Why when you say isolation exercise, people say “BY GOD WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!! YOU CAN’T GAIN RESPECTABLE MUSCLE MASS IF YOU HAVE ISOLATION EXERCISES IN YOUR WORKOUT!!! AAAARRGGG!” now the preceding was obviously an exageration but it still got the point across of basically what was said. [/quote]

No it didn’t. I’m not saying that isolation exercises are always bad. I have not made a single statement to that effect on this thread. However, I do believe that for SOME people SOME of the time, dropping isolation exercises can be valuable.[quote]

And by the way, how is training by using ALL the tools you have before you(free weights, machines, compound exercises, isolation exercises, etc.) dogmatic. that is the biggest paradox i have ever seen.[/quote]

It is if you insist that isolation exercises are essential, no matter what a person’s situation.

If I had suggested this as an invariable rule, that would indeed be dogmatic. I did not.

Read Waterbury article.

I hate to take out chest work all together I feel like I need to at least incline to build up my overall size.

What about a 5x5 routine on the big lifts, add in some curls and direct tris and calves and then add in a couple drop sets lateral raises for shoulders?

Then I will only do 3x3 for chest to keep volume lower.

I will start up with a lot lower weights and see if I can progress in the later weeks.

One thing I notice is that I seem to be working max weights pretty quickly. When I do a 3x8 for example, I will work it up to where the FIRST set is very hard and I could not get 9. Then I am kinda stuck because the other 2 sets reps drop under 8 and it takes me forever to get up to 3x8 on the new weight.

There’s a very simple solution to your problem: put more emphasis on what needs the work. Otherwise you’ll just further your unbalanced look. If you train the way some of these guys are suggesting, you can indeed become large, but it will be quite ungainly.

Personally, I was in a similar situation, so I did what I thought was obvious: work my shoulders as much as I did everything else. After a semester abroad, I came back to school and everyone who commented on me being larger also mentioned my shoulders being the most obvious difference. I’m definitely not that broad, but I look a lot better.

[quote]veruvius wrote:
There’s a very simple solution to your problem: put more emphasis on what needs the work. Otherwise you’ll just further your unbalanced look. If you train the way some of these guys are suggesting, you can indeed become large, but it will be quite ungainly.

Personally, I was in a similar situation, so I did what I thought was obvious: work my shoulders as much as I did everything else. After a semester abroad, I came back to school and everyone who commented on me being larger also mentioned my shoulders being the most obvious difference. I’m definitely not that broad, but I look a lot better.[/quote]

I was in a similar situation. Though my shoulders used to be pretty impinged so I had to correct that first… which also took alot longer.