T Nation

Can't Decide on Deca or Test

6 foot, 180lbs, 23 years old
been training and eating well…

How likely am I to see the sides at a very small dose of test??? Do people ever experience sides at low doses of test E 250mg/week?
I am prone to all 3 sides: acne, hairloss (already have thin hair), and already have a slight case of gyno from puberty!
I was thinking about deca w/ proviron but it is way more complicated and expensive to use then a low dose test cycle!
But I would be willing to pay a lot more to not have the irreversible effects (hairloss and gyno).

Any thoughts on this??? Is 250/week of test relatively safe?
Should I bite the bullet and give it a try w/ the drugs that prevent gyno?

If I were you I would choose test and use nolvadex for gyno. 250mg a week may work if it’s your first time. Sides shouldn’t be a concern at that dose.

Good luck

I would choose to run adex or aromasin to prevent your gyno during a cycle.

Defenitly the test and add some propecia or proscar it has helped me keep my hair for the last ten years and I am very prone to baldness. My father and grandfather are bald but I still have hair thanks to proscar.

If u have good test, what I mean is real and correctly dosed, all u need is really 300-500mgs a week to see substantial gains with little sides. If u are worried about gyno get arimidex and if u can’t afford it noveldex.

But if u go with the noveldex u must start it the same day u start your test. With the arimidex u can wait and see if your nipples start itching before adding it.

I thought it was the Men on the Mothers side that passed the MPB gene??

yeah i heard that too about the mothers side but her father died with all his hair yet mine was getting thin on top when I was able to stop it with proscar. I’m sure it was because of the many anabolics I was taking at the time.

I was getting ready for the Jr. USA and I was taking several drugs but I feel that the winstrol was the culprit for the hair loss. But it did stop and actually come back when I added 5mgs of proscar a day.

I would never recommend deca for a first cycle.

Test is the way to go.

run it at 500 and youll see amazing results

And I would always run Adex over nolva, especially if you already have gyno.

Nolva is like a good handgun, but adex is a grenade launcher

totally agree with Westclock - although i am not totally opposed to Deca only, if it is a choice, choose Testosterone… 500mg at the most IMO though, even 250mg is good for a first i think.

JJ

How about this cycle???
Week 1 to 10: 400mg of EQ
Week 1 to 10: 250mg of Test

Week 13 - 40mg nolva+ 100mg clomid daily

Week 14 - 30mg nolva+ 50mg clomid daily

Week 15 - 20mg nolva+ 50mg clomid daily

does this seem, okay? I would like a very low dose of test to see how bad the sides are. Would it be important to continue the test longer than the EQ???
I could mix the EQ and test and do 2 injections weekly correct?
Should I get some armidex also for symptoms of gyno???

I think the cycle is fine… why not drop the Eq and use 250mg test and 25-30mg of dianabol over the first 6 weeks?

yep. always have arimidex or aromasin (or letro) on hand. for all cycles…

it seems ok… just to let you know - i have gotten gyno (when it first reared its head actually) from just 250mg test a week… it was pharm human grade sustanon, but it aromatizes less than enenthate or cyp… so an AI may well be a necessity.

looks ok to me… i think the eq may be a little pointless - especially as you want to try test for a number of reasons, you may be better off doing it alone, or with just a small dose of Dbol over the first 4-6wks.

JJ

Im not sure Id run dbol on a first, your going to feel amazing even without it.

And dbol can aggravate gyno something fierce

Just something to think about

Bro if you have some slight gyno from puberty I would stick to just one compund for your first cycle as these guy would tell ya there is years more to add more compunds.

Now not being a dick here but if you still have some gyno what is your body fat % now? and how tall are you? and what do you weigh?

I only ask cause I know aguy who is tall and slim and he had some gyno (boobs" still from when he had a lot of puppy fat.

You do much cardio?

Have you considered using propionate, that way you can control the sides much better, ie. if you ARE crazy-sensitive to gyno you could drop the drug and it would clear in a few days…
?

JJ

Heres the thing, I’m not trying to get huge. More just to add a little mass and get cut up.
I’m already in pretty good shape.

Everyone keeps telling me to try test, because its so important to know for future cycles, but I dont really want to start doing a lot of cycles…

What I really want is to do a relatively easy, low-side cycle that will give me some gains that I can maintain without drugs.

I don’t want to get huge and bloated and have people around me know that Im on steroids.

Now that I hear that test in doses as low as 250mg/week can cause gyno, that really scares me!!! Plus Im pretty sure that I would probly get a bad case of acne from it also and possibly some hairloss. (Not worth it to me).

As for propionate, I am really not very excited about injecting EOD for 10 weeks as I have never been on a cycle before.

So what do yal think? Would EQ be something close to what I’m looking for?? Or maybe Deca?? Would it be better stacked with proviron or test or something else.

How much armidex should I look at purchasing for a 10 week cycle? 10 tabs? 50 tabs?

Also the source I was looking at does not have needles, so where do you get the needles from and how many would I need for a 10 week cycle???

Thanks soo much, I was really not expecting the number of response i’ve gotten and they have all been very helpful!
-DJ

[quote]Action jackson wrote:
Here’s the thing, I’m not trying to get huge. More just to add a little mass and get cut up.
I’m already in pretty good shape.

Everyone keeps telling me to try test, because its so important to know for future cycles, but I dont really want to start doing a lot of cycles…

What I really want is to do a relatively easy, low-side cycle that will give me some gains that I can maintain without drugs.

I don’t want to get huge and bloated and have people around me know that Im on steroids.

Now that I hear that test in doses as low as 250mg/week can cause gyno, that really scares me!!! Plus Im pretty sure that I would probably get a bad case of acne from it also and possibly some hair loss. (Not worth it to me).

As for propionate, I am really not very excited about injecting EOD for 10 weeks as I have never been on a cycle before.

So what do ya think? Would EQ be something close to what I’m looking for?? Or maybe Deca?? Would it be better stacked with proviron or test or something else.

How much arimidex should I look at purchasing for a 10 week cycle? 10 tabs? 50 tabs?

Also the source I was looking at does not have needles, so where do you get the needles from and how many would I need for a 10 week cycle???

Thanks soo much, I was really not expecting the number of response i’ve gotten and they have all been very helpful!
-DJ[/quote]

OK let me preface this post with the statement that i dont think you should use steroids… your goals aren’t really warranting the use of hardcore performance enhancement… y’know? Is it even worth it? I can virtually guarantee you that you wont just do one cycle either… because not one single motherfucking person gets massive from one or two cycles. It takes years still!
So with that in mind, your goals may be realised in a few cycles… but highly unlikely just one. And for the most part - being on AAS is nice.

But… in response to your posts.

There are not any steroids that are side effect free… it is a given. The closest you will get is primobolan depot under 400mg/wk which i dont think is too bad a suggestion, although it is gonna cost a small fortune to run that for the 10-12 weeks necessary.

Or Anavar, which again is very expensive and also produces little muscular gains at all. It is usually used to increase strength or to retain muscle while on a caloric deficit. Both are often employed for shows, but many of the drugs that suit your goals will be due to wanting to keep gains and water bloat being directly related.

Now… Deca is one of the safer steroids, but recovery is a little harder… i believe i have given you a full rundown on Deca PCT and cycle construction in a post above, it isnt totally necessary in order to recover from one’s first cycle IME, but prudent to be prepared. I have been very seriously shutdown over a very prolonged period from deca use.

Eq may be a good option, IME it doesn’t put on anywhere near the size deca does (dont assume this is too much size, its not) but it is less suppressive apparently, and you will not need arimidex, although nolvadex and proviron will be used… the proviron helping with wood and aromatase, and the Nolva used ‘in case’ - i have never heard of anyone getting gyno from eq alone… but i am assuming you are sensitive.

A low dose test will give good size, strength AND psych benefits. your skin may become oily (mine does on deca too BTW) which can lead to spots (i dont suffer if i shower daily and use oil fighting wipes but i am not prone either), you are unlikely to have any prostate issues unless you do already, if you are concerned about hair loss you can use proscar, adex will need to be used for estrogen control, i personally used to assume i would need the maximum dose of anti estrogen, and made sure i had enough for that - back when i had less experience with cycling… so assume 1mg ED. that is 70mg…

you say you want gains that you can maintain - well, the drugs that are best at that tend to be the ones that A) don’t aromatized B) dont suppress TOO much C) are not big builders

so you are looking at anavar, winstrol, primobolan, equipoise, masteron etc… for those who are a little more experienced with AAS, PCT and ancillaries most gains will be kept from Deca and Test too…

One of my first injectable cycles was deca and proviron. I gained well, i kept a lot and any losses were a direct result of my lifestyle, not the drug or recovery issues.

I didn’t have any recovery problems and used the 40/40/20/20 nolvadex protocol with success… the second deca cycle isnt the same story fyi.

In a nutshell, Test will need a number of ancillary drugs to make sure any sides are minimized, but you will be unlucky to get many sides from such a dose - you are not going to lose all of your hair from one low dose cycle.
Deca is a good choice… but use proviron with it, (preferably testosterone) and make sure you use HCG throughout the cycle. There is a thorough PCT in a post above, but a 6 week nolva plan would suffice this time only IMPE.

Eq will produce decent results, but may cause spots too. you should use proviron and have nolva on hand… again, you would be unlucky to get gyno sides from that drug.

All the advice is based on my own results and experiences, and with the information i have collected over time - you may react totally differently to the drugs you use than i or others can. Be aware of that.

At the end of the day, YOU need to decide what you actually want… and you have to read up on the different AAS available to you and then make the correct choice.

Have you tried Creatine, HMB, Ribose, BCAA’s and increasing protein to 2.5mg/lb and if flabby cutting carbs or if skinny adding carbs??

Good luck

JJ

2.5 grams protien per body weight ?

holy crap, I couldn’t do that.

Im running 1.5 grams/lb and that is pretty hard.

Ok, man J I cant tell u how much I appreciate ur help!
I think this is what I’m gunna go with:

Newbee cycle GOLD

$375.00

Cycle reviewed and approved by BIG A, IFBB PRO, owner of www.professionalmuscle.com

* Week 1 to 13: 10mg Nolvadex daily
* Week 1 to 10: 400mg of EQ weekly
* Week 1 to 10: 500mg TEST weekly
* Week 13 - 40mg nolva+ 100mg clomid daily
* Week 14 - 30mg nolva+ 50mg clomid daily
* Week 15 - 20mg nolva+ 50mg clomid daily

I’m guna actually do the test in a lower dose, I was thinking 250/mg week with the EQ.

Do you think that I should take the nolva daily or only if I get the signs/itchy nipples???

If I don’t have to use the nolva daily, I can possibly save it and do a second cycle with the remaining test (w/ another PCT).

This seems to be the best bang for my buck! If I start getting the sides (acne/gyno/hairloss) could I discontinue use of the test (just loss of libido?).

Also where should I get needles?? online? local pharmacy? 18 gauge? 22 gauge? And how many will i need?

Thanks for the help!!!
Im guna keep doing research and probly order in like 2 weeks

-DJ

You can get needles online, or at any local CVS or pharmacy if you live in the US, they have to sell to you, its the law, too many dope fiends sharing needles.

10mg nolva is practically nothing cost wise, why skimp on something so important as estrogen management ?

If you can get test and cant get nolva theres something wrong, even research nolva will do just fine, just dose it a little higher than you would with the pills.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
2.5 grams protien per body weight ?

holy crap, I couldn’t do that.

Im running 1.5 grams/lb and that is pretty hard.[/quote]

lol! 1.5g/lb bodyweight!!! sorry, my mistake…

but for someone using gear i would say 2g/lb should be aimed for daily IMO.

I don’t really count whey in my calculations.

Its digests too fast.

1.5 grams solid proteins is like a kick in the face, add in the whey and its easily 2.

Not to mention what I run in an appetite suppressant, and makes eating a bitch.