Now they're after our peaceful neighbors to the north!
Seems like even peaceful people are in the crosshairs.
Now they're after our peaceful neighbors to the north!
Seems like even peaceful people are in the crosshairs.
I think they are actually secret agents that President Bush sent in. This will give the US a reason to send troops into Canada for our eventual takeover of the Mexico of the North.
How DID the terrorists manage to amass three tons of ammonium nitrate? I suppose it was decided three tons was much scarier than one ton...
RCMP behind bomb material
Jun. 4, 2006
Investigators controlled the sale and transport of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate in an undercover probe of an alleged homegrown terrorist cell.
Police say they moved in quickly to avert attacks in southern Ontario.
Here's a nice excerpt...
But sources close to the investigation told the Star that the investigation began in 2004 when CSIS began monitoring fundamentalist Internet sites and their users.
They later began monitoring a group of young men, and the RCMP launched a criminal investigation. Police allege the group later picked targets and plotted attacks.
Last winter some members of the group, including the teenagers, went to a field north of the city, where they allegedly trained for an attack and made a video imitating warfare.
Sources said some of the younger members forged letters about a bogus school trip to give to their parents so they could attend.
Police said there were no known connections to Al Qaeda or international terrorist organizations, but that the group was homegrown, meaning the suspects were Canadian citizens, or long-time residents and had allegedly become radicalized here.
This type of extremism was blamed for the suicide attacks in London last July which claimed the lives of 52 commuters travelling on the subway and a double-decker bus.
"They appear to have become adherents of a violent ideology inspired by Al Qaeda," said Luc Portelance of CSIS, adding there is no direct link to the network.
And, I don't think selling them fertilizer was a bad idea as long as they were ready to make the arrests before they got to use any of it as an explosive.
However, here is Steven Harper being an ass kisser, trying to suck up to the Bush doctrine:
"As at other times in our history, we are a target because of who we are and how we live, our society, our diversity and our values ? values such as freedom, democracy and the rule of law - the values that make Canada great, values that Canadians cherish."
What the hell did the canadians do? They don't have any troops in Iraq as far as I know.
they look like americans!
Nonsense. The Bush doctrine is about pre-emption - this statement reflects Harper's sober assessment of what is going on and what is at stake, minus all the false window dressing of the shrill Left claiming the war is driven by materialist determinism.
Man, how in the world do you get 'ass kisser' out of what Harper said? His words represent ideas that I would die protecting and that many people (esp Canadians) have already died protecting.
They are in Afghanistan.
Don't confuse the values discussed with the way in which "they hate our freedom" is being suggested. Since Afghanistan we've been on the list of targeted nations.
Anyway, your point is precisly why Steven Harper used those words. They represent fine ideas/ideals and I'm not criticizing them in any way. I'd fight for Canada and it's ideals too.
Those words are there to fire people up, to push patriotic buttons, to toe the line with previous statements of the Bush administration. Seriously, Harper sounds like an echo of Bush in most of his viewpoints and speeches.
Not a bad idea on the surface I suppose -- but as seems to be a reoccurring pattern in these big terror cases, it eventually comes out the Feds have "an inside guy" on the payroll, etc. At least they were nice enough not to let it go all the way through.
I wouldn't doubt more than half of these guys end up getting off, but in the short term it becomes a big PR boost for the "war on terror".
I was being cynical about the three tons of fertilizer since all the previous articles talked about how they were apparently so organized that they somehow were able to amass this huge amount of ammonium nitrate "under the radar". The truth of course comes out that the RMCP provided AND transported it.
The comparison to OKC was classic terror propaganda -- you saw what ONE TON could do, now imagine THREE TONS. The question is, could they have even accumulated three ton on their own without attracting MAJOR suspicion?
This is HIGHLY regulated stuff:
South Carolina Fertilizer Permitting and Security
Federal judge rules: McVeigh had help
Bolsters claims government had informant inside conspiracy to attack federal building
March 30, 2006
A U.S. District Court judge in Salt Lake City, Utah, has issued a stunning decision that appears to bolster claims that executed bomber Timothy McVeigh was supported by various militia groups, and that the government had an informant inside the bombing conspiracy.
Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast
The New York Times
October 28, 1993
Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast.
The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad A. Salem, should be used, the informer said.
FOX News: 7/7 London Bomber Mastermind was working for British Intelligence
Al-Qaeda cleric exposed as an MI5 double agent
March 25, 2004
Exclusive: The Informant Who Lived With the Hijackers
NEWSWEEK has learned that one of the bureau's informants had a close relationship with two of the hijackers
By Michael Isikoff
Sept. 16 issue -- At first, FBI director Bob Mueller insisted there was nothing the bureau could have done to penetrate the 9-11 plot. That account has been modified over time--and now may change again. NEWSWEEK has learned that one of the bureau's informants had a close relationship with two of the hijackers: he was their roommate.
FBI Was Warned of Sept. 11 Hijacker
Informant Says He Provided Facts About Phoenix Hijacker
May 23 - A paid FBI informant told ABCNEWS that three years before Sept. 11, he began providing the FBI with information about a young Saudi who later flew a hijacked passenger plane into the Pentagon.
Boy were you guys lucky -- usually you would find out the RCMP gave the terrorists materials AFTER the fact.
Still given the typical pattern, I suppose Canada has some new draconian terror legislation they were/are trying to push through -- or they are about to.
I applaud our police officers and investigators who prevented the attacks. I was initially shocked with the news, now I'm just angry.
It will be interesting to see if there are any links in the arrests here with those in London.
I'm hoping that intelligence sharing between western countries continues to increase so that future attacks can be prevented. Isolating ourselves is not the answere, we have to work together and hunt down these people.
I believe Canada is taking charge in Afghanistan to let the US focus in Iraq and elsewhere.
That's interesting. Is it to free up US troops for use in Iran?
I'm not sure if we are heading it up now in Afghanistan or not, it seems to be a rotating command. I can't believe you guys aren't "aware" of Afghanistan anymore.
Anyway, JTF, you'll find that one of the ways to find out about the terrorists is to infiltrate their organizations. This often means having someone on the inside who can help these groups incriminate themselves.
I guess the alternative is to wait until after something blows up and then try to figure out who was involved...
Canada's not the Mexico of the North, they're the SAUDI ARABIA of the North. As the price of oil rises, their dollar is fast approaching par with the USD based on the Alberta Tar Sands.
One of the soldiers I 'adopted' is in Afghanistan, so I'm very aware of what's happening there.
I think you may have missed my point, vroom -- in all the examples I had given, we HAD inside people, yet all these terror events happened ANYWAY. With the 1993 WTC bombing, the Fed's informant was directly involved with manufacturing the actual bomb which the they lead him to believe would be replaced with a 'dummy'.
While the people in this recent bust may have had every intention of committing some horrific act, they keep hyping in the news that they stopped these young "homegrown" terrorists who "blend right in" and who get all these radical ideas and communicate through the "evil internet" and SEE, aren't you glad we're spying on everybody.
Also the QUANTITY of THREE TONS of ammonium nitrate has a completely different context (ie: irrelevant) when you realize that it was SOLD BY, SUPPLIED and DELIVERED by the RCMP.
Hypothetically it would be the equivalent of hearing about some huge, record breaking cocaine bust being hyped all over the news and whew, what dire consequences were narrowly avoided -- then come to find out it was so "record breaking" because the Feds actually sold it to the low to mid-level dealers they busted, probably for a deal too good to resist and far above their game.
Of course the main point they're trying to sell here is -- the internet is a scary and dangerous place where anybody with an internet connection can put together a terrorist cell and acquire massive amounts of bomb making material. BTW, that's the underlying story here if you haven't noticed -- it's all about preparing to regulate and censor the internet.
Every single day another "internet is evil" news story: terrorists, pedophiles and stalkers -- terrorists, pedophiles and stalkers -- terrorists, pedophiles and stalkers.....
As I was saying....
Police put on a 'good spectacle'
Snipers, leg irons, selected evidence, police brass - all calculated to sway the public, lawyers and security experts say
Jun 5, 2006
"A good spectacle ... theatrical atmosphere ... like 24 ... an awards show."
Reviews for a Mirvish production, right? Maybe a Hollywood blockbuster or fast-paced new action series on Fox?
Wrong. It's how several lawyers and security experts describe the sombre, indeed frightening, events which transpired in the GTA over the past weekend.
At a news conference Saturday, a dozen of the highest-ranking police officers in the province gathered to announce that an alleged terrorist cell had been shut down before it could explode a truck bomb three times more powerful than the device used in Oklahoma City. They were circumspect about Operation O-Sage, arguing time constraints in the preparation of evidence as well as police procedure.
The anti-terrorism task force was careful about the wording of its news release, saying that the group "took steps to acquire" the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a popular fertilizer used to make bombs. As well, they laid out selected evidence for the photographers and TV crews, showing only "sample" bags of ammonium nitrate.
Meanwhile, under massive police security which included sharpshooters on nearby roofs and tactical squad officers with submachine-guns, suspects were brought in leg irons to the provincial courthouse in Brampton. There, in Room 101, Justice of the Peace John Farnum postponed bail hearings until tomorrow morning.
For the experts contacted by the Star, these events were as much about creating an image for the public as about charging the individuals. And it's an image, they argue, that could hurt the right of the accused - 12 men and five youths - to a fair trial.
Being on message - "on script" as the spin doctors put it - is a concept more easily associated with politicians than police chiefs. But for a veteran of the criminal justice system like Toronto lawyer Walter Fox, it's the obvious lens through which to judge events.
The principal audience, in his view, is the Canadian public.
"Police think they have to present a show of force to advance the public's understanding that these guys are dangerous," said Fox. "Does it prejudice the mind of the public? I think so.
"As a criminal lawyer, I am well aware that police and the prosecution are never stronger than at the moment when they've brought their suspects into court for the first time. I've also learned that the stronger the police seem to be at this point, the more suspicious I become that they don't have a complete case."
Overall, Fox tends to believe that the checks and balances of the justice system will probably win out. David Jacobs, a Toronto lawyer with extensive experience in international human rights law, is less sure.
"The fanfare around the arrests creates such a theatrical atmosphere one wonders if it is necessary for the enforcement of justice.... It raises the emotional level without necessarily shedding any light," he said.
In Brampton Saturday, lawyer Anser Farooq, who represents five of the accused, clearly saw the image of snipers on the roof and police armed to the teeth as negative to his clients. "This is ridiculous," he told the Star. "They've got soldiers here with guns. This is going to completely change the atmosphere."
Inside, lawyer Rocco Galati, representing two suspects, complained to Farnum about the leg irons and armed officers in the courtroom, adding: "I do not feel safe with an automatic weapon facing in my direction."
Police evidence was carefully chosen for the news conference, held at the Toronto Congress Centre by the RCMP-led National Security Enforcement Team.
The chief speaker was RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell, and lined up behind him were chiefs of police from Toronto, York, Durham and Peel regions, as well as representatives from the Ontario Provincial Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
"When I saw all that brass lined up with every cop in southern Ontario and Canada telling us what a wonderful job they had done, I thought it was like an awards show," said Fox. "Everybody will tell you it's standard but they are all working to influence the public."
He had questions, as did Jacobs, about exactly how three tonnes of ammonium nitrate were "acquired" by the suspects. The Star has learned that when investigators monitoring the men found out about the alleged purchase of the fertilizer, they intervened before delivery, switching the potentially deadly material with a harmless substance.
[b]Jacobs advised vigilance in seeing what comes out in court about how far police went. He said that the courts have been drawing a line past which law enforcement officers can't go without being seen as having induced the commission of a criminal offence.
He found it interesting that police referred to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing where 168 people died in an explosion at a federal building. He said that if, for example, police arranged for delivery of the ammonium nitrate, it would shed a different light on proceedings.[/b]
"In Oklahoma City, there was no suggestion police were involved," said Jacobs, adding that there are a number of important unanswered questions in the investigation.
Jacobs also criticized police for linking the suspects to Al Qaeda, the terrorist group responsible for the 9/11 attacks, without providing evidence. Police said that cell members were "inspired" by Al Qaeda.
Fox chuckled at the way evidence was presented, notably the use of similar bags of ammonium nitrate, not the actual evidence.
Watching it on TV, he said, he had the sense of reading an old crime pulp magazine from the '50s, with lines like: "At a location similar to the one pictured above, the following events took place ..."
"Was there a police infiltrator?" asked Fox. "Did a spouse talk to police or did someone arrested on more minor charges give information to police? We don't know what kind of a police operation it was. Everybody thinks that it's like on TV, but everything is far more complicated."
Michael Edmunds, administrator of the U of T's McLuhan Program in Culture & Technology, argues the public is already so influenced by television that people are receptive to the kind of message sent out by police on the weekend.
Unconsciously, receptive audiences for police actions are created by such TV shows as the Fox hit 24, starring Kiefer Sutherland as counter-terrorist agent Jack Bauer. Viewers sympathize with Bauer, no matter what he has to do, because they want him to get the bad guys and protect the free world.
Edmunds argued that certain memes - or unspoken beliefs in any culture - are constantly being reinforced. Here, he said, the message was that police know what they are doing and they are protecting us.
"It's all global theatre, as Marshall McLuhan used to say. We assume the police want to help us and we assume it's good."
The interesting aspect of the weekend for him was yesterday's front-page play of the story in the New York Times. "Now we know what the police did was good," he said. "It's vindication when our brothers and sisters in the United States see it, too."
And perhaps therein lies another audience for the images of the weekend: the American public, or more precisely, official Washington, both the White House and Capitol Hill.
The Times story pointed out that Bush administration officials were kept abreast of the police investigation and arrests, adding that Canadian Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day spoke early Saturday with his U.S. counterpart, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.
The Oklahoma City reference would surely resonate with Americans. The 1995 tragedy - the first domestic terrorist action in recent history - shocked a nation. It was exceedingly difficult for Americans to come to grips with the fact that domestic terrorists were involved, and not foreigners.
The trial of Timothy McVeigh, who was executed for the crime, was held under massive security, a preview perhaps of what Canadians can expect in the trial of the O-Sage 17.
"They are putting on a good spectacle, a show," U.S. security expert John Pike said in a telephone interview from Virginia yesterday about the Canadian police show of force. "We are used to that here."
Pike said the kind of massive security force employed in U.S. trials, while clearly reinforced in the aftermath of 9/11, is not a product simply of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on 9/11.
"There has been an inexorable militarization of the police in the United States since the 1980s," he said, citing a gradual weakening of human rights groups that began a decade earlier. "But there has been a substantial ratcheting up of security since 9/11."
Problem is, said Pike, that police and prosecutors "make a big deal of what they've got, but as trials progress, we've repeatedly seen that the prosecution's case falls apart because they simply don't have the evidence."
According to Pike, the key to the Canadian case will be the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate with which the 17 suspects supposedly plotted to set off a bomb in southern Ontario.
"the key to the Canadian case will be the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate"
Really? I was under the impression that they did lend their support to the Iraq Coalition at one point or another. Pretty sure this is the case, and it explains why would be targetted.
Oh, right. There ya go. It's amusing that you labeled them as "peaceful" despite being aware of this.
Ah, yes. It's that "they hate us for our freedoms line", so crucial to the justification of preemptive intervention.
Here's what Charley Reese wrote in an excellent commentary on this neocon ideological stepping-stone:
Read the article (short):
Harry Browne added the following points in an article of suggestions for a new foreign policy: