T Nation

Canada, Oh Canada

http://now.msn.com/now/0227-gun-drawing-arrest.aspx

Is this where the US is headed?

Arrested and strip searched for a girls drawing of a plastic toy gun…

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[quote]pushharder wrote:
Impatiently waiting for the next Canadian to complain about stupidity in US politics.

[/quote]

That’s kinda where I was hoping to go with this.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
http://now.msn.com/now/0227-gun-drawing-arrest.aspx[/quote]

How dare she draw her Dad holding a gun! They should have given him the chair! A picture of a gun? Outrageous! Hell, execute the kid too, she’s obviously a danger to other kids!

I was arrested in Canada for having a gun…Dicks.

[quote]pat wrote:

I was arrested in Canada for having a gun…Dicks.[/quote]

Were you really? Why did you bring a gun with you in the first place?

Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).[/quote]

Owning a gun, especially a handgun, in Canada, is generally a crime. I can’t think of a scenario where the girl would have seen her dad holding a gun (were it to have been real) and it not be a crime. And we really don’t know all of this story. Maybe the teacher asked the girl what she was drawing and she said ‘that’s daddy’s gun’ or something along those lines. Also teachers generally have met the parents a bunch of times, maybe this guy just seemed like a scumbag that could be involved in very shady type things, the teacher was already worried about this girl and how her father behaves, and that took the gun drawing event to a whole other level. Obviously I have no idea if this is true or not, but it might not be an isolated incident of girl draws gun, father arrested, with nothing else involved.

BTW I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation, I’m just saying, seems like a teacher was concerned about the safety of one of her students, and the whole situation was blown out of proportion. It’s not like the guy did jail time or was charged with anything. The strip search was certainly over the top though if that’s true. BUT, if the teacher really did believe this guy was dangerous and owned a gun (very different in Canada than the US remember, plus it’s a handgun) based on what the kid drew/said, you would certainly want her to do SOMETHING.

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).[/quote]

Owning a gun, especially a handgun, in Canada, is generally a crime. I can’t think of a scenario where the girl would have seen her dad holding a gun (were it to have been real) and it not be a crime. And we really don’t know all of this story. Maybe the teacher asked the girl what she was drawing and she said ‘that’s daddy’s gun’ or something along those lines. Also teachers generally have met the parents a bunch of times, maybe this guy just seemed like a scumbag that could be involved in very shady type things, the teacher was already worried about this girl and how her father behaves, and that took the gun drawing event to a whole other level. Obviously I have no idea if this is true or not, but it might not be an isolated incident of girl draws gun, father arrested, with nothing else involved.

BTW I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation, I’m just saying, seems like a teacher was concerned about the safety of one of her students, and the whole situation was blown out of proportion. It’s not like the guy did jail time or was charged with anything. The strip search was certainly over the top though if that’s true. BUT, if the teacher really did believe this guy was dangerous and owned a gun (very different in Canada than the US remember, plus it’s a handgun) based on what the kid drew/said, you would certainly want her to do SOMETHING.[/quote]

In absolute terms he had his human rights violated. The fact that a drawing of a toy gun can make it legal to strip search a person and search their house is a testament to the state of Canada. The fact that a guy who’d done nothing could be treated that way is ridiculous, excuses or not. Unless toy guns are illegal there to, in which case he should be in jail, right?

I don’t think I have ever posted on T-Nation but after reading the last poster’s (gmoore17) post and seeing that he is Canadian I had to post.

Owning a gun, handgun or not is definitely not generally a crime in Canada. All one has to do is get their PAL, for long guns and shotguns with certain restrictions, or their RPAL for handguns and other rifles and shotguns that the PAL doesn’t cover. However, the attitude of MOST uninformed Canadians is that guns are scary and illegal and anyone who owns a gun is breaking some law. So we have a situation where a girl draws a picture of a gun and probably says its daddy’s and her dumb nosy teacher flips shit and calls the cop. The cops subsequently flip shit and arrest this guy because they are super heroes. Typical police response.

MEANWHILE, the mother fucking police chief of Victoria, BC improperly stores his revolver in his car and he gets a slap on the wrist. How did the improperly stored firearm come to light? Because all vehicles at the police station were being searched because a full set of police riot gear, complete with Remington shotgun, went missing!

So we have a police department in one part of the country where the police chief is storing his handgun unlawfully and (apparently) dangerously, and lost a set of riot gear that could be in the hands of anyone, and there are light reprimands.
Yet in another part of the country a man’s daughter draws a picture of a gun and he gets his ass thrown in jail, strip searched, and his house torn apart.

Am I the only one who is saying WTF?

I admit I shouldn’t have said that about the handguns being illegal, because I’m really not very informed on the matter. All I know comes from my brother, who owns a hand gun, after getting the license for it and such, BUT he has to keep it locked up in a case EXCEPT for when he has it at a range to shoot. So I assumed the dad having it out, at home, would be illegal. But I don’t know.

And, as you can see in my post, I said “I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation.” I agree that the response was over the top. Some action other than strip searching the guy and searching his home could certainly have been taken. I’m just saying we don’t know the whole story. I don’t think it’s fair to call her a ‘dumb nosy teacher’ if she legitimately thought one of her students was in danger.

[quote]hermbros wrote:
I don’t think I have ever posted on T-Nation but after reading the last poster’s (gmoore17) post and seeing that he is Canadian I had to post.

Owning a gun, handgun or not is definitely not generally a crime in Canada. All one has to do is get their PAL, for long guns and shotguns with certain restrictions, or their RPAL for handguns and other rifles and shotguns that the PAL doesn’t cover. However, the attitude of MOST uninformed Canadians is that guns are scary and illegal and anyone who owns a gun is breaking some law. So we have a situation where a girl draws a picture of a gun and probably says its daddy’s and her dumb nosy teacher flips shit and calls the cop. The cops subsequently flip shit and arrest this guy because they are super heroes. Typical police response.

MEANWHILE, the mother fucking police chief of Victoria, BC improperly stores his revolver in his car and he gets a slap on the wrist. How did the improperly stored firearm come to light? Because all vehicles at the police station were being searched because a full set of police riot gear, complete with Remington shotgun, went missing!

So we have a police department in one part of the country where the police chief is storing his handgun unlawfully and (apparently) dangerously, and lost a set of riot gear that could be in the hands of anyone, and there are light reprimands.
Yet in another part of the country a man’s daughter draws a picture of a gun and he gets his ass thrown in jail, strip searched, and his house torn apart.

Am I the only one who is saying WTF?

[/quote]

The same kind of thing happens here for open carry. You can be completely legal and get arrested or shot.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).[/quote]

Owning a gun, especially a handgun, in Canada, is generally a crime. I can’t think of a scenario where the girl would have seen her dad holding a gun (were it to have been real) and it not be a crime. And we really don’t know all of this story. Maybe the teacher asked the girl what she was drawing and she said ‘that’s daddy’s gun’ or something along those lines. Also teachers generally have met the parents a bunch of times, maybe this guy just seemed like a scumbag that could be involved in very shady type things, the teacher was already worried about this girl and how her father behaves, and that took the gun drawing event to a whole other level. Obviously I have no idea if this is true or not, but it might not be an isolated incident of girl draws gun, father arrested, with nothing else involved.

BTW I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation, I’m just saying, seems like a teacher was concerned about the safety of one of her students, and the whole situation was blown out of proportion. It’s not like the guy did jail time or was charged with anything. The strip search was certainly over the top though if that’s true. BUT, if the teacher really did believe this guy was dangerous and owned a gun (very different in Canada than the US remember, plus it’s a handgun) based on what the kid drew/said, you would certainly want her to do SOMETHING.[/quote]

In absolute terms he had his human rights violated. The fact that a drawing of a toy gun can make it legal to strip search a person and search their house is a testament to the state of Canada. The fact that a guy who’d done nothing could be treated that way is ridiculous, excuses or not. Unless toy guns are illegal there to, in which case he should be in jail, right?[/quote]

I’m hoping the ‘strip search’ thing is exaggerated. I highly doubt they’d search his ass for a handgun. Maybe they patted him down and he claimed strip search, I don’t know.

Also, let’s imagine a scenario:

Girl goes to school. The teachers know her Dad as a low-life asshole who they EXPECT is involved in some shady, illegal things. One day the kids are drawing pictures, and the girl draws a picture of her dad holding a gun. The teacher asks ‘oh, what is that?’ Girl says ‘Oh that’s daddy’s gun. He always likes to keep that around.’ The teacher calls the police, they take him in while they search his house, find a handgun that he owns illegally.

Would you think that the way this scenario was dealt with was ‘disgusting?’ (I know you didn’t say disgusting, someone else did). I obviously assumed a whole bunch of details in that scenario, but they were all things that COULD be part of the real story, except for the ending.

All I’m saying is, while yes, it was not handled appropriately, we may not know the whole story, and I do believe the teacher was just looking out for the girl’s safety. And remember that in Canada guns ARE thought of as different. I don’t know anyone who has had a handgun out in the open in their home, so if a teacher were to think her student witnessed that, it is not surprising for her to react.

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).[/quote]

Owning a gun, especially a handgun, in Canada, is generally a crime. I can’t think of a scenario where the girl would have seen her dad holding a gun (were it to have been real) and it not be a crime. And we really don’t know all of this story. Maybe the teacher asked the girl what she was drawing and she said ‘that’s daddy’s gun’ or something along those lines. Also teachers generally have met the parents a bunch of times, maybe this guy just seemed like a scumbag that could be involved in very shady type things, the teacher was already worried about this girl and how her father behaves, and that took the gun drawing event to a whole other level. Obviously I have no idea if this is true or not, but it might not be an isolated incident of girl draws gun, father arrested, with nothing else involved.

BTW I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation, I’m just saying, seems like a teacher was concerned about the safety of one of her students, and the whole situation was blown out of proportion. It’s not like the guy did jail time or was charged with anything. The strip search was certainly over the top though if that’s true. BUT, if the teacher really did believe this guy was dangerous and owned a gun (very different in Canada than the US remember, plus it’s a handgun) based on what the kid drew/said, you would certainly want her to do SOMETHING.[/quote]

In absolute terms he had his human rights violated. The fact that a drawing of a toy gun can make it legal to strip search a person and search their house is a testament to the state of Canada. The fact that a guy who’d done nothing could be treated that way is ridiculous, excuses or not. Unless toy guns are illegal there to, in which case he should be in jail, right?[/quote]

I’m hoping the ‘strip search’ thing is exaggerated. I highly doubt they’d search his ass for a handgun. Maybe they patted him down and he claimed strip search, I don’t know.

Also, let’s imagine a scenario:

Girl goes to school. The teachers know her Dad as a low-life asshole who they EXPECT is involved in some shady, illegal things. One day the kids are drawing pictures, and the girl draws a picture of her dad holding a gun. The teacher asks ‘oh, what is that?’ Girl says ‘Oh that’s daddy’s gun. He always likes to keep that around.’ The teacher calls the police, they take him in while they search his house, find a handgun that he owns illegally.

Would you think that the way this scenario was dealt with was ‘disgusting?’ (I know you didn’t say disgusting, someone else did). I obviously assumed a whole bunch of details in that scenario, but they were all things that COULD be part of the real story, except for the ending.

All I’m saying is, while yes, it was not handled appropriately, we may not know the whole story, and I do believe the teacher was just looking out for the girl’s safety. And remember that in Canada guns ARE thought of as different. I don’t know anyone who has had a handgun out in the open in their home, so if a teacher were to think her student witnessed that, it is not surprising for her to react.[/quote]

So, the teacher just knew he was a bad guy, so human rights, shmoooman rights…?

In this country, you can’t do that because there is a burden of probable cause, but you’re right, that’s a silly notion.

How could a drawing of a gun warrant this kind of respon…

…Unless, paper ammo was also drawn. That would be a clear and present danger.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).[/quote]

Owning a gun, especially a handgun, in Canada, is generally a crime. I can’t think of a scenario where the girl would have seen her dad holding a gun (were it to have been real) and it not be a crime. And we really don’t know all of this story. Maybe the teacher asked the girl what she was drawing and she said ‘that’s daddy’s gun’ or something along those lines. Also teachers generally have met the parents a bunch of times, maybe this guy just seemed like a scumbag that could be involved in very shady type things, the teacher was already worried about this girl and how her father behaves, and that took the gun drawing event to a whole other level. Obviously I have no idea if this is true or not, but it might not be an isolated incident of girl draws gun, father arrested, with nothing else involved.

BTW I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation, I’m just saying, seems like a teacher was concerned about the safety of one of her students, and the whole situation was blown out of proportion. It’s not like the guy did jail time or was charged with anything. The strip search was certainly over the top though if that’s true. BUT, if the teacher really did believe this guy was dangerous and owned a gun (very different in Canada than the US remember, plus it’s a handgun) based on what the kid drew/said, you would certainly want her to do SOMETHING.[/quote]

In absolute terms he had his human rights violated. The fact that a drawing of a toy gun can make it legal to strip search a person and search their house is a testament to the state of Canada. The fact that a guy who’d done nothing could be treated that way is ridiculous, excuses or not. Unless toy guns are illegal there to, in which case he should be in jail, right?[/quote]

I’m hoping the ‘strip search’ thing is exaggerated. I highly doubt they’d search his ass for a handgun. Maybe they patted him down and he claimed strip search, I don’t know.

Also, let’s imagine a scenario:

Girl goes to school. The teachers know her Dad as a low-life asshole who they EXPECT is involved in some shady, illegal things. One day the kids are drawing pictures, and the girl draws a picture of her dad holding a gun. The teacher asks ‘oh, what is that?’ Girl says ‘Oh that’s daddy’s gun. He always likes to keep that around.’ The teacher calls the police, they take him in while they search his house, find a handgun that he owns illegally.

Would you think that the way this scenario was dealt with was ‘disgusting?’ (I know you didn’t say disgusting, someone else did). I obviously assumed a whole bunch of details in that scenario, but they were all things that COULD be part of the real story, except for the ending.

All I’m saying is, while yes, it was not handled appropriately, we may not know the whole story, and I do believe the teacher was just looking out for the girl’s safety. And remember that in Canada guns ARE thought of as different. I don’t know anyone who has had a handgun out in the open in their home, so if a teacher were to think her student witnessed that, it is not surprising for her to react.[/quote]

So, the teacher just knew he was a bad guy, so human rights, shmoooman rights…?

In this country, you can’t do that because there is a burden of probable cause, but you’re right, that’s a silly notion.[/quote]

If the daughter is claiming the dad has a gun, that’s not probable cause? What if the daughter says her dad likes to touch her inappropriately, or beat her mom? The police can’t do anything because we can’t listen to the daughter?

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Disgusting. Drawing a picture of a gun isn’t a crime. Owning a gun isn’t a crime. The police had no grounds to make the arrest, strip search him or to search his home. He should press charges (if he even has that legal right…).[/quote]

Owning a gun, especially a handgun, in Canada, is generally a crime. I can’t think of a scenario where the girl would have seen her dad holding a gun (were it to have been real) and it not be a crime. And we really don’t know all of this story. Maybe the teacher asked the girl what she was drawing and she said ‘that’s daddy’s gun’ or something along those lines. Also teachers generally have met the parents a bunch of times, maybe this guy just seemed like a scumbag that could be involved in very shady type things, the teacher was already worried about this girl and how her father behaves, and that took the gun drawing event to a whole other level. Obviously I have no idea if this is true or not, but it might not be an isolated incident of girl draws gun, father arrested, with nothing else involved.

BTW I’m not at all saying this was the right way to go about the situation, I’m just saying, seems like a teacher was concerned about the safety of one of her students, and the whole situation was blown out of proportion. It’s not like the guy did jail time or was charged with anything. The strip search was certainly over the top though if that’s true. BUT, if the teacher really did believe this guy was dangerous and owned a gun (very different in Canada than the US remember, plus it’s a handgun) based on what the kid drew/said, you would certainly want her to do SOMETHING.[/quote]

In absolute terms he had his human rights violated. The fact that a drawing of a toy gun can make it legal to strip search a person and search their house is a testament to the state of Canada. The fact that a guy who’d done nothing could be treated that way is ridiculous, excuses or not. Unless toy guns are illegal there to, in which case he should be in jail, right?[/quote]

I’m hoping the ‘strip search’ thing is exaggerated. I highly doubt they’d search his ass for a handgun. Maybe they patted him down and he claimed strip search, I don’t know.

Also, let’s imagine a scenario:

Girl goes to school. The teachers know her Dad as a low-life asshole who they EXPECT is involved in some shady, illegal things. One day the kids are drawing pictures, and the girl draws a picture of her dad holding a gun. The teacher asks ‘oh, what is that?’ Girl says ‘Oh that’s daddy’s gun. He always likes to keep that around.’ The teacher calls the police, they take him in while they search his house, find a handgun that he owns illegally.

Would you think that the way this scenario was dealt with was ‘disgusting?’ (I know you didn’t say disgusting, someone else did). I obviously assumed a whole bunch of details in that scenario, but they were all things that COULD be part of the real story, except for the ending.

All I’m saying is, while yes, it was not handled appropriately, we may not know the whole story, and I do believe the teacher was just looking out for the girl’s safety. And remember that in Canada guns ARE thought of as different. I don’t know anyone who has had a handgun out in the open in their home, so if a teacher were to think her student witnessed that, it is not surprising for her to react.[/quote]

So, the teacher just knew he was a bad guy, so human rights, shmoooman rights…?

In this country, you can’t do that because there is a burden of probable cause, but you’re right, that’s a silly notion.[/quote]

If the daughter is claiming the dad has a gun, that’s not probable cause? What if the daughter says her dad likes to touch her inappropriately, or beat her mom? The police can’t do anything because we can’t listen to the daughter?[/quote]

Because there are legal guns, like toy ones or pretend ones. Even if true, it isn’t evidence of a crime.

The outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause. They didn’t know or verify anything. If they had, they could have resolved this without detaining anyone.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

The outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause. They didn’t know or verify anything. If they had, they could have resolved this without detaining anyone.[/quote]

I agree with that last point, the police did not go about it the right way. However,‘the outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause’ is false. To go back to my previous example, if a child was to say that their father is sexually assaulting them, or beating their mom, or whatever, the police should have probable cause to investigate, whether it turns out to be true or not.

I disagree most with the other poster’s comment about ‘some dumb teacher.’ I think she absolutely did the right thing by informing the police (and realistically she probably informed the principal, who then informed the police). If she believed the child’s father might have a handgun, in the house, out in the open, of course she should tell someone. It was the police who then didn’t handle the situation in the best way.

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

The outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause. They didn’t know or verify anything. If they had, they could have resolved this without detaining anyone.[/quote]

I agree with that last point, the police did not go about it the right way. However,‘the outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause’ is false. To go back to my previous example, if a child was to say that their father is sexually assaulting them, or beating their mom, or whatever, the police should have probable cause to investigate, whether it turns out to be true or not.

I disagree most with the other poster’s comment about ‘some dumb teacher.’ I think she absolutely did the right thing by informing the police (and realistically she probably informed the principal, who then informed the police). If she believed the child’s father might have a handgun, in the house, out in the open, of course she should tell someone. It was the police who then didn’t handle the situation in the best way.

[/quote]

Or she could have even suspected him of having a pointy object that could kill somebody. But like I said, the result is a sufficient indictment of the system in place. If you can be treated that way on such small cause, then the system is screwed up.

And molestation is different. There is no way a child could learn inappropriate contact from her dad without it being a crime. There are tons of ways and reasonable scenarios she could learn about and draw a “gun”.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

The outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause. They didn’t know or verify anything. If they had, they could have resolved this without detaining anyone.[/quote]

I agree with that last point, the police did not go about it the right way. However,‘the outcome proves that there wasn’t sufficient cause’ is false. To go back to my previous example, if a child was to say that their father is sexually assaulting them, or beating their mom, or whatever, the police should have probable cause to investigate, whether it turns out to be true or not.

I disagree most with the other poster’s comment about ‘some dumb teacher.’ I think she absolutely did the right thing by informing the police (and realistically she probably informed the principal, who then informed the police). If she believed the child’s father might have a handgun, in the house, out in the open, of course she should tell someone. It was the police who then didn’t handle the situation in the best way.

[/quote]

Or she could have even suspected him of having a pointy object that could kill somebody. But like I said, the result is a sufficient indictment of the system in place. If you can be treated that way on such small cause, then the system is screwed up.

And molestation is different. There is no way a child could learn inappropriate contact from her dad without it being a crime. There are tons of ways and reasonable scenarios she could learn about and draw a “gun”.[/quote]

Fair. However, again, we don’t know what the child told the teacher. In any case, the teacher was convinced the gun was real, which I would say certainly warrants some investigation.