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Can You Get Huge on Primo and Test?

hello all. can i make big gains on test and primo alone? i have tried various PEDs and i have had side effects that stopped me in my tracks. my current situation has led me to using primo and test for gains.

i am now starting a cycle using primo and testosterone enanthate only. i think i will start with 200 test per week with 400 primo per week. i would say i am kind of in the beginner/intermediate range of muscle development.

to further illuminate my current state of development. i am 43 years of age. on trt for 2 years so far. i weigh 160 pounds. 5’7". i can max bench press about 210-230 (I do not bench press much). max squat 300-330. max DL, maybe 230 (i do not DL very much, prefer stiff legged DL).

my diet is pretty well tuned. i know my body fairly well.

so i want to gain muscle mass. i would rather not increase my testosterone usage and just increase my primo dosage if possible (i do not want to deal with water gains and E2 issues). what do you think?

the problem i have with most PEDs is that if they can be harmful to the kidneys i will not and cannot use them as this is a weakness of mine. also, i have consistently had trouble dialing in an anti estrogen pill. i have tried armidex and aromasin. armidex is too strong for me. aromasin seems ok, but again, i prefer to not put too many toxins in my body. i am not sure my body can handle it.

@Chris_Colucci this should be moved to the Pharma Section.

Of course. Arnold’s staple drugs if you add Dbol, which he also liked a lot.

What is your reasoning for using AAS when you see yourself as a beginner/intermediate?

I think you should get your training in order before using steroids. You should be able to improve with your current stats and do it just on TRT. I think you will likely be wasting primo right now, which isn’t cheap.

Can you run your trt dose without an AI? That is what I do, with no issues. It can take a bit to get used to. Why do you need an AI?

well, i don’t know if i can continue to make substantial gains from test. i guess if i double the test i might be able to. but i prefer to avoid using an AI (i never need one for my trt program).

so, to avoid AI i am trying primo. and also primo can aid my metabolism and burn fat, which is good because i have a about 3-5 kilos of fat around my mid section.

if i increase my test dosage i would need an AI. my current E2 level is 54. my current testosterone level is 2,000. this is from 200mg of test ena, and K2 (i suspect K2 has spiked my E2 and my test level).

How long have you been working at it? I don’t want to sound snarky, but it takes a long time for most people. It is a really common thing for people to think they are close to their genetic limit, when they are a ways off.

Your E2 is actually pretty low. I would think gains would be pretty easy with that level of testosterone.

Many people are fine with E2 in the 100s without negative sides. I do TRT, and am doing my second blast of 600 mg of test with no AI, and no issues. Don’t concern yourself much with an E2 number during a blast, go off of side effects.

What is K2?

It is up to you if you want to run a blast. If you were not on TRT, I would tell you to develop more with drugs, but it is a bit easier to justify a light blast if you are already shut down.

How confident are you in your primo? It is one of the most faked drugs. Often it is a mast with test or just mast.

it is perfectly fine that you are questioning my reasoning. i am open to better ideas. that’s why i am here.

i am scared that if my E2 goes above 60 i might develop gyno. it’s interesting that you let yours run up to 100 during a cycle. how long will you let your e2 stay at 100 before you lower it?

(i have never had any symptoms of gyno.) i am into the 6 week cycle idea.

i sent my primo to a lab to best tested. it is real stuff and it was something like 85mg instead of the 100mg stated on the vile. i am happy with the quality.

my baseline E2 is 10. so E2 has never been a worry for me. but i have a hypochondriac’s fear of gyno.

so i am curious about how long you are “blasting” 600mg per week of test. is that test ena? is it prescription stuff or underground? my stuff is from the drug store so i am very confident about the quality of my testosterone.

i have been on a high weekly dosage level of test off and on for nearly 2 years. i have worked out off and on during this time. i have been fairly serious about it. i think i have gained about 10-20 pounds of muscle and 10 pounds of fat.

i do not know too much about K2. it is supposed to offer many benefits, such as benefits to the CNS and vascular system; and also cancer prevention. i am into trying new sups so i started taking it about 1-2 weeks ago. and i got a blood test a couple days ago and my test is up 25% and my E2 is up 75% (roughly speaking). i do not know if the K2 caused these increases.

i forgot to mention that i am also taking bpc 157, which i started yesterday. .3 mg per day.

I will lower it after cycle by lowering testosterone dosage back to 200 mg/wk. It could be 300, but if I am getting good results, feel good, and am not getting gyno, why care?

I get the fear of gyno. I have tried several blast dosages to see what I can handle, and recommend that to others. If you want to see if you can run more test, start with 350-400 mg/wk, and do that for 5 weeks, if all is good, bump it up by another 100 mg/wk. If you bump it up, and don’t feel good, or are starting to get the first signs of gyno, you can back it down, and take a bit of Nolva.

Finding out what you can do without sides is a part of this game, but it is wise to approach things cautiously.

6 weeks of primo is just a waste of money in almost all cases. Primo should be run longer to get good results. Think of 16-20 weeks.

Test E, and it is underground. Test is rarely faked, so usually you get real test. Dosing isn’t always perfect as some people can’t figure out chemistry, or are trying to make a tiny bit more profit. I will be running it for 16 weeks, with Tbol at 40 mg/day for the last 6 weeks.

That is great progress, especially for being on and off.

why do you think primo is better suited for a longer cycle? at what dosage should i use primo? i already bought the primo, i have 41 ampules of 85mg.
i like your idea of upping my test dosage for 5 weeks. i am going to do this. you gave me confidence to take the risk. thanks a lot for your time on this.

Buy double the primo, but get it in higher concentrations. Injecting that much oil every week is a pain in the ass, literally and figuratively.

While you’re waiting to source more primo up your test to 500, based on how well you respond to 200mg you should be able to make tremendous gains off of that. Do it for 12 weeks. Eat a shitload. Train harder than you’re used to. If you must add something then add oxandrolone at 50mg/d for the first or last six weeks. It’s magic and it’s the only drug I’d ever take again if you limited me to only one (besides test of course). If you’re that concerned about gyno then take 10mg of Nolva twice a week while also using whatever AI you need. That should be enough to prevent you from getting gyno, and if you start to get symptoms you can increase the dose. Nolva is pretty versatile and the sides are not typically that bad.

You’re going to need a massive stockpile of primo for your next run, which you should be in no rush to do just yet. Plan for an early 2021 blast with it once you’ve got enough to run it at 600+ for 16 weeks.

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I agree with iron. It is a mild drug, that should be run longer to see good results.

If you bump up your test, just be incremental with it. No need to jump in the deep end. Almost everyone is afraid of gyno, so figure out a good dosage slowly.

i appreciate your taking the time to offer advice. but i cannot take anavar (no oral steroids). i have weak kidneys. i cannot even do protein shakes because they give me kidney stones. i am old, 43. maybe some people my age can handle more than me. i was kind of rough with my body as a young man so i think i might be paying the price for that behavior now.

if i did not have this fragile constitution i would be taking dbol.

i hear what you are saying about the long term cycle. but i want to know the facts, not the opinions. what makes you think that a “mild” drug like primo is not going to have immediate effects if the half life is 10 days?

i cannot “train harder”. i have to train to the limit that my body can handle. when i go overboard i seem to have CNS shutdown. for example if i do 30 squats and max out at 300, i will be exhausted and in bed for two to three days. tell me why the fuck this is happening? it’s horrible. i feel my body cannot handle the strenuous activity. i cannot eat more than i do. if i eat too muck my kidneys go to shit. i am eating beef and salmon and quinoa and white rice and green beans, oatmeal and eggs. my diet is fine. why do i experience extreme exhaustion when i train hard? when i was a young man i never had this problem. i would push myself more and more. i could run up a mountain.

so what i do is i train for 45’ - 60’ max for three days straight. then i take a day off. then 3 days on an 1 day off. it seems to be working. also, i keep my squat numbers down below 15 repetitions and i do not go up to my max. i stay between 200 and 250pounds. this is my approach which i started in the last two weeks.

how does this work? just because it is mild doesn’t mean it needs to build up in the blood. why is derik on MPMD referring to research that shows a 6 week peak in gains? what info am i missing here. things are not adding up.

I wasn’t knocking your training. It was more of a motivational thing. You’ll find that guys here are pretty encouraging to each other.

10-4 on the kidneys and orals.

Try to up the test and see what it does. Again, you’re a great responder to it if you’re pulling 2,000 on 200mg. That’s about double what I got on that dose. Even going to 400mg should give you a serious boost.

As far as why you’d use primo for a longer time period, the answer is simple: that’s how it works. For a moment let’s forget that it takes a few weeks to reach peak concentration. That hardly matters in this case. The real issue is that primo is not a huge bulker. It’ll put on size, but you need time more than anything else. It’s not like nandrolone where you get size quickly when using a short ester. Scour the internet for primo recommendations and you’ll find very few cycles that are 12 weeks and under. There’s a reason for that and it isn’t just broscience or a stubborn conventional wisdom.

For reference, I was using 600mg of primo pre pandemic and had to stop when gyms closed. I went five weeks before bat AIDS shut down life as we know it. In those five weeks I had zero effects. No changes occurred. That’s precisely what I had expected, because primo simply doesn’t do anything quickly. Since my blast was planned to be 16 weeks (and by week four, given that there were no side effects, I intended to up the dose and extend it another four weeks) I wasn’t in a huge rush.

i do not understand why my testo test a few days ago shows my t level at 2,000 and e2 at 54. it was expected to drop to e2: 30 and test 1,200. the previous blood check showed me with a test level at 1,600 and e2 at 36 (this was with a 250mg of test ena every 7 days). (this might be the effect of a buildup of test in the system?)

so i do not know why my levels increased, despite my decrease in dosage (i am now taking 200mg every 7 days). the only change in drugs is my use of vitamin k2. but nowhere have i read that k2 can increase test and e2 like this.

do you have any idea why my body becomes massively fatigued from heavy training?

i hear you on the primo. i hear you clearly. and of course i am paying attention to what you say and what the others say. if it sounds like i am challenging your info, it is because i want to understand things exactly. i do not just take someone’s words as gospel. i need to understand why. so you have prompted me to look into primo and why it is cycled in 16 week durations despite the half life being only 10 days. i understand these drugs build up in the system and leave the system at different rates. i need to up my knowledge of this stuff. thank you

Well there are different steroids. Some work really quickly, other really slowly. Primo is slow. In 6 weeks you would be lucky to put on a lb of muscle. In 16 weeks you will get a lot more as the blood concentration is higher during that last 10 weeks as it has built up.

Ok you guys have convinced me. I will do a 16 week cycle of test and primo. I will start with about 370 per week of test and 500 per week or primo. I will need to buy a few more boxes of primo. I am hoping that I will not need to take an AI.

I very grateful to you and the others.

Couple of thoughts and questions.

When is your blood work in relation to your test shot? Is it three days after, five days? That makes a difference. If your doctor is worth his salt then the bloods should be done no sooner than three days post injection, but one thing I’ve learned is that the doctors who prescribe this stuff don’t necessarily understand what they’re doing as well as we’d hope.

And to elaborate a little on the primo answer (and I appreciate you trying to gain insight; you should never blindly follow what I or anyone else here says) I’ll say a few things that I know to be true. Primo doesn’t build at the same scale that testosterone or nandrolone are capable of. It has a lot to do with nitrogen retention, increases protein synthesis, etc. I’ll use some made up numbers here to illustrate the larger point.

Nandrolone capabilities
Nitrogen retention: 9/10
Protein synthesis: 7/10

Testosterone capabilities
Nitrogen retention: 7/10
Protein synthesis: 7/10

Methenolone capabilities
Nitrogen retention: 4/10
Protein synthesis: 5/10

Again, these are all made up, but they reflect the importance of a compound’s attributes relative to other available options.

So you look at what a particular drug does, then you compare it to what else is out there, and you have to determine what you want and importantly don’t want, in terms of benefits and side effects.

Nandrolone comes with a host of potential downsides, but it’s an amazing mass builder. If you knew that you’d get zero side effects from it then you’d have no reason not to use it for every cycle/blast. But since it comes with a heavy potential downside you adjust your risk parameters and decide that it’s not for you. So you look to the more mild drugs, which usually means that their attributes—both positive and negative—are diminished.

Now let’s do some more made up math. Let’s pretend that 100mg of nandrolone = 3 units of nitrogen retention. On the same (made up) scale, 100mg of methenolone = 1 unit. It stands to reason that you’d need to use 3x the amount of methenolone in order to get the same effect as a compatible dose of nandrolone. “But using 400mg of primo for eight weeks will still get me gains” you say. But here’s what you’re missing: these additional units of nitrogen retention (as well as protein synthesis) don’t effect muscle tissue linearly. Going from 0 to 4 units looks good, but it’s not as big of a change as you think. You need to be at that higher level of protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, et al for a while because muscle growth is a slow process. Now you can speed up the process by flooding your body with chemicals and getting those conditions necessary up to obscene levels (nandrolone is good at this, so is testosterone), but even then time is the biggest factor. A six week blast of NPP @ 400mg/w can yield results, but lengthen that out a little more to eight weeks and you add more without taking on much additional risk.

Everything in the world of steroids is risk/return. You calculate performance ex ante and then plot out the return. It has to have an alpha of a certain value above the risk-free return. What that alpha is must be determined by each individual. That’s where your own personal tolerance for risk comes in.

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You can consider HGH as a possible option as well. It’s another hormone produced naturally and will get you huge at the right dose. Just don’t abuse it with insulin.

2-5iu / day would be plenty for a cycle. Taper up from 2iu. Make sure it’s pharma grade. The real shit is expensive.

I agree with you. Also, I am still learning and some of these concepts you are writing about are totally new to me. So that’s good.

I see that the “half life” is not telling us everything about “duration”.

Regarding my test results. The tests were taken 3 days after the last injection. Sure, there a is range for the median Numbers for E2 and Test concentration levels but my numbers were far outside what I expected.

To further explain my surprise I will say that one thing I have been good with is taking blood tests to check for changes. I have taken probably about 15 tests in the last 2 years. I have them all. This record is valuable to me and together with my 1.9 years of journal entries I have a fairly good understanding of some of the basic elements of my blood And hormone characteristics. So what I am saying is these numbers surprised me after 2 years of checking my blood. I cannot explain the huge increase.

But I also cannot explain the crash I get sometimes when I workout with too much zeal. There are a lot of things I do not under still…ok.

I have taken a lot ofmk 677 and I have raised my igf1 level to over 400. I do not know if I had great gains from it or not. Only ran it for 6 weeks. The fatigue that I get from mk makes it a deal breaker for me. Also I needed to take 30mg per day to get myigf1 over 400. But mk is great for improving digestion.

I would probably try/use IGf1 peptide. But I can’t be sure it does much. What IGF 1 level do you need to be at to get big gains?

Yeah dude. I wasn’t talking about SARMs. MK677 is shit compared to real pharma grade HGH. You shouldn’t have any of those sides from it. It might make you need to sleep an extra hour every night, but that should only last a couple weeks.