Can We Talk?

An excellent title to an excellent article, which poses a very real question; can we, in such a hyper politicaly correct environment, talk?

I think the auther is right on w/r/t such intolerance of differing opinions. His point about college student learning that “stormtrooper” like tactics can, and will, shut down the voice of differing opinion, to me is a little frightening.

Also, the legislation concerning the “fairness doctrine” is, IMHO, bullshit. A bunch of losers crying about how ineffective they’ve been in their ability to get their message out on talk radio. So what’s their solution?, government and legislation. All too typical.

Free speech does not protect an individual from offense. In fact, one could say, the very nature of free speech should almost gaurantee that at least someone will be offended.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/10/can_we_talk.html

Can We Talk?
By Thomas Sowell

There are very few saints among people of any race, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation. None should be above criticism.

Increasingly, however, there are tighter and tighter restrictions on what you can say about more and more groups. San Francisco radio talk show host Pete Wilson discovered this recently when he criticized a city Supervisor and his female friend – but not lover – who had a baby together.

The man is gay and the woman is a lesbian, so they are not lovers in a committed relationship.

Raising a child is no piece of cake, even when the parents are married and committed to staying together. Raising a child where there is no stable, committed relationship may be cutting edge stuff but Pete Wilson’s point was that a child is not an experiment.

The same could be said of heterosexuals like the woman who recently had a baby in her sixties. That’s great for making a splash in the media but what is going to happen when the baby becomes a teenager and the mother’s energy level has declined with age, if she is still around at all?

The real issue, however, is neither heterosexual or homosexual, and it extends even beyond the important question of the best interests of the child.

The larger question for American society is, as Joan Rivers has often said: “Can we talk?”

Political bigwigs in San Francisco say “No.” They are demanding that Pete Wilson resign. In San Francisco, no one is supposed to criticize anything done by homosexuals.

Moreover, this attitude is not confined to San Francisco or to gays. On the other side of the country, Columbia University students stormed the stage when one of the Minuteman critics of our lax immigration laws was trying to speak.

At many other colleges and universities, he would not even have been allowed on campus in the first place. Many campuses have speech codes where it is called creating a “hostile environment” if you say things that make various racial, sexual, or other protected groups unhappy.

Young people educated at our most prestigious colleges and universities are learning the lesson that storm trooper tactics can silence those who are not in vogue on campus, and honest expressions of opinion about issues involving anything from affirmative action to women in the military can get you suspended if you refuse the humiliation and hypocrisy of being “re-educated.”

Meanwhile, liberals in Congress have long been advocating a return to the so-called “fairness” doctrine requiring “balance” in broadcasting. Talk radio is overwhelmingly conservative simply because liberal talk radio has failed repeatedly to attract comparable-sized audiences.

The listeners have spoken but the politicians want to overrule them. Some call it “hush Rush” legislation.

“Fairness” here, as in so many other contexts, means nothing more and nothing less than the exercise of arbitrary power by third parties, since everyone has a different definition of what “fairness” means.

Free speech is not a luxury but a necessity if we are to hear the various sides of issues before we decide what to do.

It is not a question of Pete Wilson’s rights or even of the rights of all the people who speak or write on public issues. Such people are not even ten percent of the population and probably not even one percent.

Their individual rights matter. But among the pressing problems of our time, their interests alone rank far down the list.

Free speech rights exist for the whole society, not for writers and speakers. When you say that we can hear only what a growing number of censors want us to hear, you are condemning us to grope in the dark when making all sorts of decisions – about ourselves, our families and the future of our society.

Whether Pete Wilson’s opinion was right or wrong is a very small issue compared to blinding us all for the sake of political correctness. Can we talk? Apparently, for some people, the answer is “No.”

Copyright 2006 Creators Syndicate

Interesting stuff, and part of the problem I have heard described as the death of ‘civilized confrontation’.

When it is better to have a sarcastic quip than a reasoned argument, we are losing ‘civilized confrontation’. This goes for shouting down viewpoints you don’t agree with as well.

And I find it amazing that so many so-called defenders of free speech really have no interest in what free speech is designed to protect - and that is informed debate.

Mention something politically incorrect/unorthodox from a prominent position and you get calls for your head on a platter. Yet the same folks that try and stamp out dissent from their orthodoxy will, at the same time down at the coffee house, smugly chuckle at the wrong headedness of the old Roman Catholic Church silencing the likes of Galileo, etc., all the whle proclaiming their fidelity to ‘open-mindedness’ and appreciation for ‘diversity’.

We have now the equivalent of Secular Fundamentalists who commit the same sin they claim to despise - and they are too clueless to recognize the hyopcrisy.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
When it is better to have a sarcastic quip than a reasoned argument, we are losing ‘civilized confrontation’. This goes for shouting down viewpoints you don’t agree with as well.
[/quote]

I’m screwed!

The OP sounds like just another right wingnut that is afraid of what will happen if the Democrats take over the house and senate.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
The OP sounds like just another right wingnut that is afraid of what will happen if the Democrats take over the house and senate.[/quote]

Did you read it or is that just your standard response to everything?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The OP sounds like just another right wingnut that is afraid of what will happen if the Democrats take over the house and senate.

Did you read it or is that just your standard response to everything?[/quote]

I read the post and article.

The problem is the divisive nature of piting conservatives and liberals against each other.

Conservatives don’t want a fairness doctrine anymore because they don’t need one. Any story FNC breaks will have to be carried by the MSM.

Air America Radio is having money problems because they are trying to catch up to the right wingnut AM radio presence all at once and their business model is weak.

The right wingnut AM radio foot print took decades to create and it is naive of the liberals to think they could catch up with their first attempt. (I know I am being redundant in describing liberals as naive)

The post and article have an obvious right wing slant.

If a liberal posted something similair with a left wing slant you would be piling on with me instead.

Nice try hypocrite.

I have a bit of a different view. Now, I’m sure that strikes you as surprising!

I think society is losing the art of civilized disagreement. It’s very easy, if you have a bit of tact and language skills, to create whatever message you want without being needlessly offensive.

Perhaps, and this is just a guess, but perhaps there is no censorship going on, but that people are exercising their own right of expression when these clods needlessly insult others due to their lack of tact.

Isn’t that the refrain around these parts, that you can say what you want, but that doesn’t mean others can’t bitch at you for saying it?

So, is that article about restraint of speech? Or, instead, is that article simply whining that when tactless clods needlessly insult large groups of population they suffer a backlash?

One possibility, stop being a tactless clod and learn how to phrase your statements and criticisms in a way suitable for a civilized society. This doesn’t limit the topics you can discuss, but it does force you to do a little bit of work to demonstrate you actually are civilized.

Enough fucking whining about the PC police already… you bunch of hypocritical crybabies.

Oh, and if you don’t have the required langauge skills, then blame yourself or your educational system. After all, aren’t you the same bunch crying for survival of the fittest and personal fucking responsibility?

Be responsible for learning how to communicate effectively you stupid ignorant fuckwads!

Oh, pardon me, did I offend anyone?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
An excellent title to an excellent article, which poses a very real question; can we, in such a hyper politicaly correct environment, talk?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/10/can_we_talk.html
[/quote]

http://planetmoron.typepad.com/planet_moron/2006/08/index.html

August 31, 2006
Maybe He Was Just Speechening

In an outrageous display of opinion-mongering, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld recklessly put forth a series of viewpoints yesterday, many of which are not held by others, in a speech before the 2006 American Legion National Convention in Salt Lake City.

In the address, Secretary Rumsfeld discussed the “moral and intellectual confusion” of some in the West during the early rise of the Nazis suggesting comparisons with today’s opponents of administration policy.

Democrats were outraged with this blatant expression of an idea with Congressman Ike Skelton of Missouri taking particular umbrage noting that, “It is a dangerous business to accuse those who disagree with you of moral and intellectual confusion.”

What isn’t dangerous business? Calling someone a liar like Eric Massa, a New York Democratic House candidate, did in a statement he made about Rumsfeld following the address.

But suggesting that someone is confused? That’s a line you just do not cross, not if want to engage in civil discourse.

Skelton went on to say, “Debate in our democracy is based upon respect, not vilification.”

Such respect is clearly evident in Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi’s non-vilifying comments regarding the Secretary’s address saying only that, “Secretary Rumsfeld’s efforts to smear critics of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy are a pathetic attempt to shift the public’s attention from his repeated failure to manage the conduct of the war competently.”

See, she’s just trying to open a dialogue.

Democratic Senator Jack Reed also weighed in on the debate saying that Rumsfeld is merely “substituting sloganing for strategy.” This strongly suggests that the Senator is of the opinion that “sloganing” is an actual word. (Although unlikely, there has been some suggestion that he’s the one who brought the SAT scores down.)

Probably the most controversial part of Rumsfeld’s address was his assertion that there are historical parallels to be drawn between Nazi fascism and modern-day Islamic fascism.

Naturally, this is an absurd comparison and wholly deserving of denunciation. Let’s take a quick look at the facts:

  • Islamic fundamentalists do not, and never have, spoken German.

  • The mustaches are completely different.

  • Poland has yet to be invaded, and let’s face it, if you’re a fascist, and you’re not invading Poland, you’re just not trying. Okay, if you’re anybody with a rifle, three rounds of ammunition, and a set of old boots and you’re not invading Poland you’re just not trying.

So what are we to learn from this most recent exchange between the two major political parties in the greatest democracy on the face of the earth as they address grave matters of life and death?

  1. We have a new entry for our “Word-A-Day” calendar: “sloganing.”

  2. You want to start a bar fight? Call someone confused. (“You think the Patriots are coming back? What are you, confused both morally and intellecutally?”)

  3. It is vital to engage in immediate name calling so as to avoid any possibility that a debate on the merits of an issue might accidentally break out. It’s just not worth the risk.

J.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
When it is better to have a sarcastic quip than a reasoned argument, we are losing ‘civilized confrontation’. This goes for shouting down viewpoints you don’t agree with as well.

I’m screwed![/quote]

No, you`re the future!

J/k, of course ;-)…

[quote]lucasa wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
An excellent title to an excellent article, which poses a very real question; can we, in such a hyper politicaly correct environment, talk?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/10/can_we_talk.html

http://planetmoron.typepad.com/planet_moron/2006/08/index.html

August 31, 2006
Maybe He Was Just Speechening

In an outrageous display of opinion-mongering, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld recklessly put forth a series of viewpoints yesterday, many of which are not held by others, in a speech before the 2006 American Legion National Convention in Salt Lake City.

In the address, Secretary Rumsfeld discussed the “moral and intellectual confusion” of some in the West during the early rise of the Nazis suggesting comparisons with today’s opponents of administration policy.

Democrats were outraged with this blatant expression of an idea with Congressman Ike Skelton of Missouri taking particular umbrage noting that, “It is a dangerous business to accuse those who disagree with you of moral and intellectual confusion.”

What isn’t dangerous business? Calling someone a liar like Eric Massa, a New York Democratic House candidate, did in a statement he made about Rumsfeld following the address.

But suggesting that someone is confused? That’s a line you just do not cross, not if want to engage in civil discourse.

Skelton went on to say, “Debate in our democracy is based upon respect, not vilification.”

Such respect is clearly evident in Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi’s non-vilifying comments regarding the Secretary’s address saying only that, “Secretary Rumsfeld’s efforts to smear critics of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy are a pathetic attempt to shift the public’s attention from his repeated failure to manage the conduct of the war competently.”

See, she’s just trying to open a dialogue.

Democratic Senator Jack Reed also weighed in on the debate saying that Rumsfeld is merely “substituting sloganing for strategy.” This strongly suggests that the Senator is of the opinion that “sloganing” is an actual word. (Although unlikely, there has been some suggestion that he’s the one who brought the SAT scores down.)

Probably the most controversial part of Rumsfeld’s address was his assertion that there are historical parallels to be drawn between Nazi fascism and modern-day Islamic fascism.

Naturally, this is an absurd comparison and wholly deserving of denunciation. Let’s take a quick look at the facts:

  • Islamic fundamentalists do not, and never have, spoken German.

  • The mustaches are completely different.

  • Poland has yet to be invaded, and let’s face it, if you’re a fascist, and you’re not invading Poland, you’re just not trying. Okay, if you’re anybody with a rifle, three rounds of ammunition, and a set of old boots and you’re not invading Poland you’re just not trying.

So what are we to learn from this most recent exchange between the two major political parties in the greatest democracy on the face of the earth as they address grave matters of life and death?

  1. We have a new entry for our “Word-A-Day” calendar: “sloganing.”

  2. You want to start a bar fight? Call someone confused. (“You think the Patriots are coming back? What are you, confused both morally and intellecutally?”)

  3. It is vital to engage in immediate name calling so as to avoid any possibility that a debate on the merits of an issue might accidentally break out. It’s just not worth the risk.

J.[/quote]

That was a good article. I shall now inform anyone trying to liken GWB to a fascist that he has yet to invade poland .

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I’m screwed![/quote]

Finally!

Congratulations!

So your saying the lack of freedom of speech is the LEFTS fault…

HA!

The fairness act WAS in place. Murdocs the one who got it axed. I’ll admit their is a slight bias towards the left in the old media, but nothing compared to the disgusting news coverage of FOX.

Personally, I disagree with the fairness act. I beleive in freedom of speech, as well as Habeus Corpus, which has mysteriously disappeared…

Don’t talk about liberals limiting freedom of speech when conservatives do JUST as much. Not more, not less.

Liberals take away natural rights in the name of social development. Conservatives do it in the name of security. Both are good, important, anavoidable reasons. And both are terribly, terribly wrong.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
An excellent title to an excellent article, which poses a very real question; can we, in such a hyper politicaly correct environment, talk?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/10/can_we_talk.html

http://planetmoron.typepad.com/planet_moron/2006/08/index.html

August 31, 2006
Maybe He Was Just Speechening

In an outrageous display of opinion-mongering, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld recklessly put forth a series of viewpoints yesterday, many of which are not held by others, in a speech before the 2006 American Legion National Convention in Salt Lake City.

In the address, Secretary Rumsfeld discussed the “moral and intellectual confusion” of some in the West during the early rise of the Nazis suggesting comparisons with today’s opponents of administration policy.

Democrats were outraged with this blatant expression of an idea with Congressman Ike Skelton of Missouri taking particular umbrage noting that, “It is a dangerous business to accuse those who disagree with you of moral and intellectual confusion.”

What isn’t dangerous business? Calling someone a liar like Eric Massa, a New York Democratic House candidate, did in a statement he made about Rumsfeld following the address.

But suggesting that someone is confused? That’s a line you just do not cross, not if want to engage in civil discourse.

Skelton went on to say, “Debate in our democracy is based upon respect, not vilification.”

Such respect is clearly evident in Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi’s non-vilifying comments regarding the Secretary’s address saying only that, “Secretary Rumsfeld’s efforts to smear critics of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy are a pathetic attempt to shift the public’s attention from his repeated failure to manage the conduct of the war competently.”

See, she’s just trying to open a dialogue.

Democratic Senator Jack Reed also weighed in on the debate saying that Rumsfeld is merely “substituting sloganing for strategy.” This strongly suggests that the Senator is of the opinion that “sloganing” is an actual word. (Although unlikely, there has been some suggestion that he’s the one who brought the SAT scores down.)

Probably the most controversial part of Rumsfeld’s address was his assertion that there are historical parallels to be drawn between Nazi fascism and modern-day Islamic fascism.

Naturally, this is an absurd comparison and wholly deserving of denunciation. Let’s take a quick look at the facts:

  • Islamic fundamentalists do not, and never have, spoken German.

  • The mustaches are completely different.

  • Poland has yet to be invaded, and let’s face it, if you’re a fascist, and you’re not invading Poland, you’re just not trying. Okay, if you’re anybody with a rifle, three rounds of ammunition, and a set of old boots and you’re not invading Poland you’re just not trying.

So what are we to learn from this most recent exchange between the two major political parties in the greatest democracy on the face of the earth as they address grave matters of life and death?

  1. We have a new entry for our “Word-A-Day” calendar: “sloganing.”

  2. You want to start a bar fight? Call someone confused. (“You think the Patriots are coming back? What are you, confused both morally and intellecutally?”)

  3. It is vital to engage in immediate name calling so as to avoid any possibility that a debate on the merits of an issue might accidentally break out. It’s just not worth the risk.

J.[/quote]

I liked the original post, Sowell’s a smart guy making a great point, but Rumsfeld’s speech was reprehensible, and this snide little defense of it is just weak.

This is the first time I’ve ever said this, but Nancy Pelosi is right. Insinuating that Bush critics are akin to 1930’s appeasers is just an attempt to deflect attention from the massive mismanagement of the war in Iraq.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:

I liked the original post, Sowell’s a smart guy making a great point, but Rumsfeld’s speech was reprehensible, and this snide little defense of it is just weak.

This is the first time I’ve ever said this, but Nancy Pelosi is right. Insinuating that Bush critics are akin to 1930’s appeasers is just an attempt to deflect attention from the massive mismanagement of the war in Iraq.[/quote]

Skelton went on to say, “Debate in our democracy is based upon respect, not vilification.”

More vilifying:

a) confused or b) pathetic?

a) insinuating or b) failing to manage competently?

a) appeaser or b) liar?

Do you think Pelosi could’ve gotten her message across without using the words pathetic, or incompetent? Insinuation at least shows some restraint. I have said this before, I dislike Donald Rumsfeld in the extreme, and as a relative nobody on an internet chat board I will call him incompetent and pathetic as well. However, with a national audience, as a Federal Employee in a Democratically elected position, I would easily find better, more respectful verbiage.

Maybe we should just go back to pistols at 20 paces?

[quote]vroom wrote:
I have a bit of a different view. Now, I’m sure that strikes you as surprising!

I think society is losing the art of civilized disagreement. It’s very easy, if you have a bit of tact and language skills, to create whatever message you want without being needlessly offensive.

Perhaps, and this is just a guess, but perhaps there is no censorship going on, but that people are exercising their own right of expression when these clods needlessly insult others due to their lack of tact.

Isn’t that the refrain around these parts, that you can say what you want, but that doesn’t mean others can’t bitch at you for saying it?

So, is that article about restraint of speech? Or, instead, is that article simply whining that when tactless clods needlessly insult large groups of population they suffer a backlash?

One possibility, stop being a tactless clod and learn how to phrase your statements and criticisms in a way suitable for a civilized society. This doesn’t limit the topics you can discuss, but it does force you to do a little bit of work to demonstrate you actually are civilized.

Enough fucking whining about the PC police already… you bunch of hypocritical crybabies.

Oh, and if you don’t have the required langauge skills, then blame yourself or your educational system. After all, aren’t you the same bunch crying for survival of the fittest and personal fucking responsibility?

Be responsible for learning how to communicate effectively you stupid ignorant fuckwads!

Oh, pardon me, did I offend anyone?[/quote]

You are missing the point. The issue is not language, but thought. You can insult someone in a very respectful manner and still get put in jail for hate speech. So the issue is not what language you use but the ideas. If your ideas are related to a dislike for other groups (maybe your own group), that speech, no matter how well conveyed, is considered unacceptable in today’s society.

The evidence of this is ant-hate speech laws and hate crime laws. Both these laws relate to the content of ones speech/thought(intent), not how is was delivered or the act itself.

So the obvious problem with this is that limiting ones speech based on the content is an erosion of free speech.

People should be able to hate whoever they want and tell you about it. Anything less is not true freedom.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:

I liked the original post, Sowell’s a smart guy making a great point, but Rumsfeld’s speech was reprehensible, and this snide little defense of it is just weak.

This is the first time I’ve ever said this, but Nancy Pelosi is right. Insinuating that Bush critics are akin to 1930’s appeasers is just an attempt to deflect attention from the massive mismanagement of the war in Iraq.

Skelton went on to say, “Debate in our democracy is based upon respect, not vilification.”

More vilifying:

a) confused or b) pathetic?

a) insinuating or b) failing to manage competently?

a) appeaser or b) liar?

Do you think Pelosi could’ve gotten her message across without using the words pathetic, or incompetent? Insinuation at least shows some restraint. I have said this before, I dislike Donald Rumsfeld in the extreme, and as a relative nobody on an internet chat board I will call him incompetent and pathetic as well. However, with a national audience, as a Federal Employee in a Democratically elected position, I would easily find better, more respectful verbiage.

Maybe we should just go back to pistols at 20 paces?[/quote]

Glad you realize how terrible, some would say criminal, Rumsfeld has been at the Pentagon. I don’t think it’s wrong to call Rumsfeld incompetent, after the disaster(s) he’s presided over.

This may sound like having my cake and eating it too. But there is a difference between questioning someone’s competence and impugning his patriotism (which the Bush administration generally does through surrogates) and moral clarity.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I have a bit of a different view. Now, I’m sure that strikes you as surprising!

I think society is losing the art of civilized disagreement. It’s very easy, if you have a bit of tact and language skills, to create whatever message you want without being needlessly offensive.

Perhaps, and this is just a guess, but perhaps there is no censorship going on, but that people are exercising their own right of expression when these clods needlessly insult others due to their lack of tact.

Isn’t that the refrain around these parts, that you can say what you want, but that doesn’t mean others can’t bitch at you for saying it?

So, is that article about restraint of speech? Or, instead, is that article simply whining that when tactless clods needlessly insult large groups of population they suffer a backlash?

One possibility, stop being a tactless clod and learn how to phrase your statements and criticisms in a way suitable for a civilized society. This doesn’t limit the topics you can discuss, but it does force you to do a little bit of work to demonstrate you actually are civilized.

Enough fucking whining about the PC police already… you bunch of hypocritical crybabies.

Oh, and if you don’t have the required langauge skills, then blame yourself or your educational system. After all, aren’t you the same bunch crying for survival of the fittest and personal fucking responsibility?

Be responsible for learning how to communicate effectively you stupid ignorant fuckwads!

Oh, pardon me, did I offend anyone?

You are missing the point. The issue is not language, but thought. You can insult someone in a very respectful manner and still get put in jail for hate speech. So the issue is not what language you use but the ideas. If your ideas are related to a dislike for other groups (maybe your own group), that speech, no matter how well conveyed, is considered unacceptable in today’s society.

The evidence of this is ant-hate speech laws and hate crime laws. Both these laws relate to the content of ones speech/thought(intent), not how is was delivered or the act itself.

So the obvious problem with this is that limiting ones speech based on the content is an erosion of free speech.

People should be able to hate whoever they want and tell you about it. Anything less is not true freedom.

[/quote]

You are allowed to commit hate hate speech insofar as you are allowed to commit murders. You are certainly free to do both but societal norms control law and thus laws have been created controlling both. We also limit slander and libel which are forms of speech.

The problem with limiting speech for me isn’t in regards to “true freedom” which is talked about in some wierd abstract way here that can be used on both sides, for example hate speech laws give people freedom from having to listen to hate speech or be affected by it, because speech can illicit action, on the other hand it limits those who would like to make hate speech.

The problem is that free speech is a Constitutional guarantee, I think any limiting of speech can certainly run into trouble under the Constitution.

However, the Constitution does not just mean what it says, it means what Supreme Court justices say it means. So far they have found hate speech and slander laws Constitutional. Essentially you aren’t guaranteed “true freedom” you are guaranteed your Constitutional rights and that is all.

In theory I believe speech should probably not be limited by law. Hate speech should just be considered so reprehensible that no one would do it; however, if people feel the need to they should probably have the right.

I know this is far off from the fairness doctrine, but so was bringing up hate speech in the first place.

[quote]PGreen711 wrote:
You are allowed to commit hate hate speech insofar as you are allowed to commit murders. You are certainly free to do both but societal norms control law and thus laws have been created controlling both. We also limit slander and libel which are forms of speech.

The problem with limiting speech for me isn’t in regards to “true freedom” which is talked about in some wierd abstract way here that can be used on both sides, for example hate speech laws give people freedom from having to listen to hate speech or be affected by it, because speech can illicit action, on the other hand it limits those who would like to make hate speech.

The problem is that free speech is a Constitutional guarantee, I think any limiting of speech can certainly run into trouble under the Constitution.

However, the Constitution does not just mean what it says, it means what Supreme Court justices say it means. So far they have found hate speech and slander laws Constitutional. Essentially you aren’t guaranteed “true freedom” you are guaranteed your Constitutional rights and that is all.

In theory I believe speech should probably not be limited by law. Hate speech should just be considered so reprehensible that no one would do it; however, if people feel the need to they should probably have the right.

I know this is far off from the fairness doctrine, but so was bringing up hate speech in the first place.[/quote]

I think you are right. And one right we have in the US that people, and many Supreme Court justices, don’t seem to know is the right to not listen to hate speech. The right to change the channel, walk away, etc.

To have true freedom people should be able to think and say what they want, and the rest of us have the right to not listen.

So the answer is not to limit free speech, but to use our rights fully and not listen.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I have a bit of a different view. Now, I’m sure that strikes you as surprising!

I think society is losing the art of civilized disagreement. It’s very easy, if you have a bit of tact and language skills, to create whatever message you want without being needlessly offensive.

Perhaps, and this is just a guess, but perhaps there is no censorship going on, but that people are exercising their own right of expression when these clods needlessly insult others due to their lack of tact.

Isn’t that the refrain around these parts, that you can say what you want, but that doesn’t mean others can’t bitch at you for saying it?

So, is that article about restraint of speech? Or, instead, is that article simply whining that when tactless clods needlessly insult large groups of population they suffer a backlash?

One possibility, stop being a tactless clod and learn how to phrase your statements and criticisms in a way suitable for a civilized society. This doesn’t limit the topics you can discuss, but it does force you to do a little bit of work to demonstrate you actually are civilized.

Enough fucking whining about the PC police already… you bunch of hypocritical crybabies.

Oh, and if you don’t have the required langauge skills, then blame yourself or your educational system. After all, aren’t you the same bunch crying for survival of the fittest and personal fucking responsibility?

Be responsible for learning how to communicate effectively you stupid ignorant fuckwads!

Oh, pardon me, did I offend anyone?[/quote]

Not me. Great post Vroom.

The sleazy way in which campaigns and the political parties use loopholes in the campaign finance laws to evade responsibility for their attack ads is on full display in the Tennessee Senate race. Slick as a leer, pernicious as a virus, a campaign commercial transparently honed as a racist appeal to Tennessee voters has remained on the air, despite assurances from Republican sponsors that it was pulled down.

The ad is directed at Representative Harold Ford Jr., the Democratic candidate for the Senate, who is African-American. It includes a bare-shouldered white woman claiming to have met the candidate at a Playboy party and signing off with a close-up, whispered come-on: ?Harold, call me.?

The ad, resonating with the miscegenation taboos of Old South politics, may or may not be the nadir in the low-blow salvos now assailing the nation. But it takes the statuette for political hypocrisy as G.O.P. leaders insist they were hobbled by campaign law from cutting off what is clearly their own handiwork. ?We didn?t have anything to do with creating it,? insisted Ken Mehlman, the chairman of the Republican National Committee.

All Mr. Mehlman?s committee did was finance the ad by way of a supposedly ?independent? political shop that serves as a shadow party operation specializing in attack ads on behalf of the Republican candidate, Bob Corker. Mr. Corker eventually criticized the ad as tacky and not part of his campaign, asking that it be killed. But Republican assurances that it was finally off the air after days of damage have proved untrue, according to news reports. The 30-second fiction continued to air like some monstrous G.O.P. orphan.

Strategists from both political parties use the ?independent? route of the campaign law for launching sleaze and disclaiming provenance. Voters across the nation are hard-pressed to separate wheat from chaff in the whirlwind of political ads. But one of the few keys they have in figuring out who?s responsible for something particularly egregious is the tag line required at each commercial?s close.

In the anti-Ford ad, viewers transfixed by the blonde?s vixenish sign-off may miss the commercial?s only truly enlightening statement, tacked on in quick-talk: ?The Republican National Committee is responsible for the content of this advertising.?

It sure is.