T Nation

Can It Really Be So Simple?

I do have to reiterate here though. I find it unlikely that someone on the right track down the line has to ask this question. Not meaning to be insulting at all. Could be simple inexperience I suppose.

id also like to mention that when i first started posting here i thought everyone on this site was a beast. i thought the BB forum was for actual BBers (or atleast people who trained and looked like them) now it seems those people are the rarest to find. i also was suprised when there was a “who really trains” thread…like wtf i thought everyone on here atleast lifted.

You know I recently went through this same proccess, and the who trains thread really enlightened me as to the various types on here. Something I have learned to do is check their join dates and watch how the vets treat their opinions.

And in regards to your log book statement, i have noticed this at my gym also, but i have also observed these same people log perfectly, and great form through curl set after curl set. Alot of theses guys have the science but they don’t have the knowledge, sit back and watch you will see some very intense driven individuals never grow because they never learned what they should do, just how to log what they do.

Really just try to weed through the BS and find your groove man, ignore the naysayers, follow the advice that works for you personally and if you are new to the game or always feel new like myself then remember lift big, lift often, eat clean. (and if i could get that third one down I would be whole lot sexier damn it)

A lot of people on here know that I’m partial to Dante Trudel’s words, I think this post is fitting for this thread. I’m going to take the liberty to edit out small parts where he discusses specifics regarding his training, but the message will be clear.

"Dont read my words wrong here…this isnt me saying “ive invented something so great that…” its me getting frustrated with people who just cant grasp the fucking simplistic concept of “how to get to point B from point A” --people try to make this simple endeavor so complicated. If the most productive exercises for Bobs body is incline presses, deadlifts, dumbell curls, close grip benchs, shoulder presses, chins, calf presses, squats and leg curls, do you really think that superslow training, or other Psychoanalytical techniques are going to make Bob a superhumanly large bodybuilder? With eating enough food to get him up to every new strength and size level, and whatever else he decides, supplements, drugs, extreme stretching etc to get there the bottom line is this.
455 for 15rp on the incline bench
500 for 10 reps on the deadlift
90lb dumbell curls for 20rp
425 for 20rp on the close grip
315lbs for 15-20rp on the military
150lb rack chins for 20rp
600lb calf presses extreme stretched for 12
550 for 4-5 and 405 for 15-20 reps on the squat
the weight stack and chained plates for 15-30rp on the leg curl

IS GOING TO MAKE BOB A MONSTROUS MUSCULAR INDIVIDUAL. So you can make the decision as a bodybuilder. Are you going to fuck around for he next 5-10 years using the same weights in training and doing obsessive compulsive routines, techniques and overthoughtup principles written by by 45 year old men writing in muscle magazines who never got themselves over the 210lb bodyweight range? Or are you going to set out on a path to make yourself into something special!!! That direct path means taking the genetics handed to you, overcoming limitations that have been set by teaching your body to become a food processing, incredible strength gaining, adaption (into incredible size) machine. Extreme eating(up to new size)+Extreme Strength gains(rest pauses)+frequency of training (2x every 8 days)+ etc etc etc etc–do you guys see what im trying to accomplish with you in the shortest time possible?
The reason Im stating all this is Im seeing alot of you trying to convince people who just dont have a freaking clue on other boards to come over to your way of thought. FUCK THEM! If you want to genuinely help someone who wants sincere help, more power to you, Im right with you on that. But to try to convince a brainwashed idiot who just doesnt get it, is a waste of your valuable time! Sometimes you have to let someone find their own way to something. The absolutely best thing you can do is say this “this kind of training isnt for you” and leave it at that --exclude them, make them feel like they are on the outside looking in–because that exclusion from whats working for so many people will make them feel like they are “missing the boat” and they will reaccess things. Just because you guys are clearheaded on things doesnt mean you can cut a path thru that cloudy fog that is in some bodybuilders heads. You can ask TPC, there are times at work when i see a post and I have to do everything in my power not to post because I will go off. Your not going to convince some “set in his ways” bodybuilder, even though he has been 228lbs for the last 5 years, to change over to your rational way of thinking-especially when it will be a blow to his ego that maybe he doesnt “know his shit”…You force something down someones throat, they will rebel even if you are right, but if you make them feel like they are missing the train and they are going to be walking—youll get someone thinking “whats that guy know that Im missing out on?”

Now I sure as hell don’t want people asking what kind of training he’s talking about, that’s not the point and if you are asking that you missed the message by a long shot.

OK Scott… buddy… ol pal. I like the post, but how are you tying this in with this thread? There could be a forehead smacker here for me, but I’m not getting it. This guy is asking how to know if he’s working hard enough.

That wasn’t directed towards Der Candy, if you notice Dante is speaking in the same vain of “It’s really simple, just get really strong on your exercises and eat your way up to new body weights” that I was trying to convey earlier. He just does it so much better haha.

The paragraph after he lists the hypothetical weights for “Bob” is where I feel like the key point is in there.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
will to power wrote:

I also think it’s funny that those who really have the skills in scientific fields don’t try to talk it up. Yourself, Scott M, etc don’t try to prove your intelligence with terminology.

This made me chuckle haha PX has “Dr.” in front of his name, I’m just a young idiot who’s listened to the guys who came before me and is following through with their advice. I hope people don’t view me as some kind of authority, I’m just paying my dues at this point. [/quote]

I was actually referring to the university education you only mention in passing, which you are studying in a relevant scientific field and yet you don’t feel the need to talk as if this is The Journal of Over Analysers . I’m also studying science and I find some people on this site use more terminology that real researchers. It doesn’t serve a real purpose like in research either.

Don’t sell yourself short though, you are helping more than a few people thanks to your advanced Dante stalking skills.

its easy to know if youre working hard enough. if you have to ask then no, youre not. everyone knows their bodies. you can tell someone that youre giving it your all etc etc but deep down you know if you are or not. do you do every rep until its physically impossible to do another or risk injury? or do you do a few and when it starts to hurt you quit? do you put exercises into your training that you absolutey hate but do them anyway? or does your training consist of exercises that you think are easy? its all very simple to tell if youre pushing yourself enough.

F’d up question, repeated over and over by legions of people who came to the conclusion they want to spend their lives being as big and muscular as possible and confuse their goal as the goal of every single person on this site.

The question is not is it that simple? The question is what is ‘IT’?

That 145lber likely doesn’t care about lifting all that much, and has 3 months to look beach ready.-------in HIS EYES. Which may mean forget about legs, long as I have abs/arms/and chest with low bodyfat. Soon as the summer is over he stops lifting why? because he doesn’t feel like lifting anymore, RED ALERT!!!Theres nothing wrong with that!!! It’s their choice.

Or you can have a power lifter trying to cut weight because he is 5lbs over what he planned to be by Friday. Guess what? He can’t follow the simple goal of being as big as hell. He has to cut 5.1 lbs by Friday, and still be able to lift as much as possible, your simple formula of liftin weights and eating is going to win then?

Then we have the people who say these articles need to have a disclaimer. Um… they are writing articles, not teaching a class with a curriculum to follow. It’s not their job to determine if somebody doesn’t have the brain power to follow a routine. They are the store that sells you the tools, buy it if you want

[quote]Scott M wrote:
That wasn’t directed towards Der Candy, if you notice Dante is speaking in the same vain of “It’s really simple, just get really strong on your exercises and eat your way up to new body weights” that I was trying to convey earlier. He just does it so much better haha.

The paragraph after he lists the hypothetical weights for “Bob” is where I feel like the key point is in there. [/quote]

I AM A MORON! We ARE in the “Can It Really Be So Simple?” thread. This is what I get for trying to do too many things at once. The forehead smacker moment is here.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
its easy to know if youre working hard enough. if you have to ask then no, youre not. everyone knows their bodies. you can tell someone that youre giving it your all etc etc but deep down you know if you are or not. do you do every rep until its physically impossible to do another or risk injury? or do you do a few and when it starts to hurt you quit? do you put exercises into your training that you absolutey hate but do them anyway? or does your training consist of exercises that you think are easy? its all very simple to tell if youre pushing yourself enough.[/quote]

I promise you it’s not easy to know for a lot of people and deep down inside they genuinely cannot tell the difference. That fact renders the rest of your post moot. Also, personal effectiveness should be the criteria for choosing exercises. Whether you like doing them or not is, or at least should be immaterial.

Ultimately, progress determines everything, including whether you’re pushing yourself enough, but even that is not going to be accurately determined by many people. This whole weight training thing is like anything else. Some pick it up and some don’t, but anybody can benefit from it to some degree.

I think part of the problem is the “gain more” mentality.

That things that whispers “hey you are making good gains using this program, use this advanced blitskrieg from hell and grow double the fast!!”

People end up developing training ADD in search of the ultimate training that will make them stronger in a heart beat.

What helped me was to long time ago realize that in the context of my body, i either make gains or dont. and those gains are a function of what im eating.

This change of perspective allowed me to think of this as a investiment, where one workout does not change the whole world… but a series of workouts where you add 20,50lbs to your lifts do change something.

Excuse me for my crappy english and if those ramblings dont make much sense. Normally i cant get my point across in these foruns.

[quote]will to power wrote:

I was actually referring to the university education you only mention in passing, which you are studying in a relevant scientific field and yet you don’t feel the need to talk as if this is The Journal of Over Analysers . I’m also studying science and I find some people on this site use more terminology that real researchers. It doesn’t serve a real purpose like in research either. [/quote]

Gotcha now. And to be honest I’ve learned a heck of a lot more “under the bar” as Dave Tate puts it than in a classroom while I’ve been here.

[quote]
Don’t sell yourself short though, you are helping more than a few people thanks to your advanced Dante stalking skills. [/quote]

lol I can’t help it. When you get a stubborn mule like me and tell him “everything you need to know is out there” I end up scouring the internet finding all the relevant pieces I know. When my Dante word document hit( 30 pages or so I could have sat back and went “alright time to train and eat big!”.

The difference between me and most other people in my peer group being I had been busting my ass in the gy and at the dinner table(since page 1) for six months gaining 30 or so lbs with all the stretch marks and new clothes to show for it.

Most of them are still looking for the next best thing you know?

Can it be all so simple ? I think its each persons own personal journey that they can either over-complicate or simplify as they wish. Its the same reason why some guys get chicks, and other guys “think” about it on the sidelines waiting in line. Some people are thinkers, others are dooers simple as that.

and some people mix a little of both which I believe is the way to go…

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
F’d up question, repeated over and over by legions of people who came to the conclusion they want to spend their lives being as big and muscular as possible and confuse their goal as the goal of every single person on this site.

The question is not is it that simple? The question is what is ‘IT’?

That 145lber likely doesn’t care about lifting all that much, and has 3 months to look beach ready.-------in HIS EYES. Which may mean forget about legs, long as I have abs/arms/and chest with low bodyfat. Soon as the summer is over he stops lifting why? because he doesn’t feel like lifting anymore, RED ALERT!!!Theres nothing wrong with that!!! It’s their choice.

Or you can have a power lifter trying to cut weight because he is 5lbs over what he planned to be by Friday. Guess what? He can’t follow the simple goal of being as big as hell. He has to cut 5.1 lbs by Friday, and still be able to lift as much as possible, your simple formula of liftin weights and eating is going to win then?

Then we have the people who say these articles need to have a disclaimer. Um… they are writing articles, not teaching a class with a curriculum to follow. It’s not their job to determine if somebody doesn’t have the brain power to follow a routine. They are the store that sells you the tools, buy it if you want[/quote]

Airtruth, good words. I’m stronger now than I have ever been, but my gains have been slow. There are times I don’t push myself as hard but I do plenty of volume and frequency.

On occasion I might lift like a pussy in some people’s eyes, but I also work a physical labor job for 8 hours a day and don’t feel like being a zombie at work after training. It’s ok to leave a little in the tank in light of other priorities.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I promise you it’s not easy to know for a lot of people and deep down inside they genuinely cannot tell the difference. That fact renders the rest of your post moot. Also, personal effectiveness should be the criteria for choosing exercises. Whether you like doing them or not is, or at least should be immaterial.

Ultimately, progress determines everything, including whether you’re pushing yourself enough, but even that is not going to be accurately determined by many people. This whole weight training thing is like anything else. Some pick it up and some don’t, but anybody can benefit from it to some degree.[/quote]

im sorry, im not following. how can not know the difference between when youre pushing yourself all the way or not? if you want to be a bitch and quit after 5 reps when you know damn well you could do 10 but you just dont want to tough it out then you arent pushing yourself. there are lots of people who do this, who would rather just give up instead of sucking it up and dealing with a little pain.

this is probaly the biggest reason people stay small, they dont lift HARD enough, thats kind of the main point in my original post. the biggest motherfuckers at the gym arent the guys studying neuroscience and physiology theyre the guys who are beating the shit out of themselves and doing it the next day.

once again, if you dont know what lifting hard is then you probaly havent done it. give everything you have…its that fucking simple. its not a question, its a fact.

Well what is the fact ? Are you talking about muscular energy output, or psychological ? And its not like the average Joe can actually measures this stuff scientifically. Its just a judgement call basically.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

That 145lber likely doesn’t care about lifting all that much, and has 3 months to look beach ready.-------in HIS EYES. Which may mean forget about legs, long as I have abs/arms/and chest with low bodyfat. Soon as the summer is over he stops lifting why? because he doesn’t feel like lifting anymore, RED ALERT!!!Theres nothing wrong with that!!! It’s their choice.[/quote]

And it’s our choice to make a spectacle out of this individual. This isn’t Men’s Health even though some here really try hard to make it that way. This isn’t Jenny Craig where someone who doesn’t lift weights might be welcomed with open arms.

What is the point of this website if it is now OK to be just like most other barely mobile people in this country? Is it their choice? Yes. It is also our choice whether we accept it.

Why should I or anyone else here waste any time at all on someone who will stop training right after Spring Break? Why should someone like that be included in discussions or openly accepted here?

Alright alright enough !!! To all those six-pack, skinny guys, you think thats the way to impress a real women ? A real women wants a big strong, man who can protect her not some skinny wimp. I honestly dont even see the motivation some of these guys have to want a six pack so badly. But hey, This is a free country.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
<<< if you want to be a bitch and quit after 5 reps when you know damn well you could do 10 >>><<<

<<< once again, if you dont know what lifting hard is then you probaly havent done it. give everything you have…its that fucking simple. its not a question, its a fact.[/quote]

I agree if you don’t know what lifting hard is you probably haven’t done it yet. I said the same thing a different way. I also know that stopping at 5 when you’ve got 10 isn’t the same as stopping at 5 when you’ve got 6 or stopping at 10 when you’ve got 12. It’s also not ALL about short changing a set. Guys will inadvertently shift the tension around in response to the pain instead of savoring it in the muscles they’re after or lessen tension by speeding up the negatives to get the set over with, but still be able to feel ok about finishing it for instance.

I wasn’t jumping on you, but there are people convinced they are primitive specimens are training ferocity who believe that the fact they’re breathing harder than normal means they’re working hard.