T Nation

Can I Please Get Some Help?


#1

I've made 2 posts so far, and I've been reading a lot but i am concerned that my IGF-1 levels are a little low for my age. I am 24 and its at 234. Do you think this is a little low? If so what would be the benefit of getting HGH with my TRT protocol? Thanks any help would be great.


#2

Why are you creating new posts where we know nothing else about you?


#3

Tell me would you like to know?


#4

Please read the advice for new guys sticky.

You need to keep all info about your case in one post/thread so we have the context to best help you. And always come back to it with new info and updates.

If you posted labs and details before, they are needed now and I will not search for that.

The alternative is a useless chat room. We do better here.

HGH is mostly not affordable or legally obtainable for most. Are your IGF-1 levels low or known?

We do not even know what your TRT protocol is.

Help us help you :wink:


#5

Ok I'm 24 150 5'6". All my fat I carry is around my mid section. I haven't had a bf % but I'd say under 10%. I workout 5 days a week with cardio for 4. Here are my levels before i started TRT
IGF-249
FSH SEREM-2.2
LH SERM-6.4
Total Test-188
TSH-0.79

Now I just had my levels check again after 4 weeks I should be getting the numbers today but my dr. was concerned cause my total test was over 1000, so he wants me to drop the Test C down. If my E2 levels are elevated in this blood work then i am dropping Clomid and Nolva and getting A-dex. This was my protocol.

HCG 4000IU M/W/F (first week) 2000IU M/W/F
Test C 120 MG M/T (now he wants me to do 60 mg M/T i do not think this will give me optimal levels."
Clomid 50 mg ED
Nolva 20 mg ED

He wants to stop this after 12 weeks I do not. I am perpared for a life long thing here I do not want to waste time and resources any more. I want to be running at "optimal levels" so what would those be? On the blood work sheet it says reference range for Total test was 262-1593 so why should the dr be concerned that its over 1000? Also if E2 levels are elevated then what would the recommended dosage for adex? Thank you if I didn't give you enough info please let me know what else I forgot.


#6

SERMs increase E2, not needed, and also lead to increased LH. Stacking two SERMs [stupid] will take LH too high and that will often create insane amounts of E2 in the testes and can also degrade the LH receptors.

Your hCG dose is stupid and will have all of the negative effects cited above. All you need is 250iu EOD to preserve the testes, that is way better than damaging the testes. Note that anastrozole cannot manage T-->E2 inside the testes, only peripheral T-->E2. We see that these situations cannot be managed with anastrozole.

When you cut the SERMs and reduce hCG, T levels will not be so high. For your body weight, 100mg/wk T with the hCG should create TT near 900-1000. 120 per week would be good to run. 240/week was insane.

Your E2 was probably high and the liver would up SHBG levels, blunting FT response. All T benefits would be reduced.

So it will be a whole new game.

Suggest that you test E2 only soon on new protocol then go with anastrozole. I really expect that you will need it. Then test again with anastrozole after 3 weeks and do dose refinement. Aim for E2=22pg/ml

Note that we have a few guys here who have ruined their hormone systems with combinations of extreme training and calorie restriction.

Different testing labs not only have different ranges, but results that would be different with the same blood samples. The ranges are probably more significant in terms of guidance. Note that Quest FT results are 4-5 time higher than some other testing labs.

You should be looking for FT at the high end of range or a bit higher.

Note that for the same T inputs, more E2 means more SHBG and thus more SHBG-T [which is inert]. So high SHBG means higher TT, even as that would reduce FT.


#7

So once i get my E2 levels and my doc perscribes me A-Dex, it should look like this?
Test C 120 mg split M/T
HCG 250ius EOD
Adex-0.5 EOD? What is a good dose for A-dex based on that amount of Test? So let me get this straight, each lab have different ranges now what is this lab your takling about? They have high ranges is that what your saying? Is having Test at 1000 optimal or too much for my age? My doc wants me to be in the 500-600 range which is insane when the lab clearly says 262-1593 Total Test. When i get my E2 levels back i will post it up. Thank you for your help man.


#8

Let me understand this, if my FT is higher but my TT is a bit lower i would actually feel better correct? I'm just trying to understand, again much appreciated.


#9

You need high normal range T results. If TT goes over range getting FT up, no problem, most of TT is SGBG-T which is inert.

Adex starting dose should be 1.2mg/week for 120mg T/week. 1.2mg/week * 1 week/3.5 EOD injections is 1.2/3.5 = ~0.35mg EOD

Then you can refine. If you get E2=28 and the target is 22, new dose would be .35 * 28[new]/22[target]

Some start with adex then next lab is refinement instead of a get started.

FT is a better measure of what you feel.

For many at your BW, 120mg T would be a bit high. For 100mg, adex would be 1.0mg/week starting dose.

Read stickies and understand issues re anastrozole over-responders. Do not front load anastrozole, as this can feel really bad if you are an over-responders.

There is a question of why your T levels are low. It would be better to find root causes and attempt to fix those. Lets look at your labs. Do you have other lab data pre-TRT? Read how we work with others in their threads. We have many with issues your age group.


#10

Thanks, what other information would be beneficial to you with my lab results pre TRT?


#11

Got another question, what if the Pharmacy only has 1 mg tabs of A-dex, how would i be able to get .35 mg, or just in general get the specific does I'm looking for?


#12

Talked to doc he says 250-500ius EOD is to little. What would be the benefit of lowering it, also about the A-dex what if the pharmacy only has 1 mg tabs how can you if the specific dose i need? Thanks


#13

My doc called me up with my E2 results and my Total Test. I had 1900 total test and 143 E2. I'm lowering the Test down to 100 mg a week, cut out the SERMS, lowering the HCG gradually to 1000iu EOD (then recheck may put it down to 500)and he put me on Adex .50 M/W/F. They are 1 MG tabs how would i go about splitting it up to get the exact does i am looking for? It seems after 12 weeks my doc is going to discontinue everything and recheck T levels to see if my HPTA restarted at all, if it isn't up much (which i don't expect it to be) i will go on life time TRT (which i don't mind.)


#14

oh my....

1 - your doctor is insane.
2 - I am extremely concerned for you if you continue to follow your doctor's advice.
3 - anything over 500iu HCG EOD can result in permenant Lydeg cell desensitation. do a simple google search HCG densensitation or something like that.
4 - I have never heard of anyone on SERM A + SERM B + MASSIVE doses of HCG + MASSIVE injections of Testosterone + Arimidex. ?!?!? why not throw some crack cocaine and antifreeze injections into the mix while he's at it?


#15

LOL, thank you for your concern, but I am not longer on the serms. As for the HCG we are going down to 1000iu M/W/F. The Test will be down to 100-120 mg then will see where my levels are. I will adjust if needed for optimal levels. The Adex is .50 M/W/F, I do have a question about that since the tabs only come in 1 mg. How do you guys get the specific dose for Adex, does it come in other tabs other then 1mg? I am splitting the pills in half atm. Thanks


#16

Splitting the pills with a pill cutter is what most folks do.


#17

So the new protocol is good? I'm going to get blood levels checked in 2 weeks to see whats up.


#18

HCG dose is still way too high. you are risking permenant damage.
T dose is better.

you also need to test your cortisol to confirm that it is holding up to all of this strain you are putting on your system with such massive fluctuations.


#19

What would be the permanent damage with HCG dose that high?


#20

do a google search - leydig cell desensitization HCG

basically, the cells in your testicles become overwhelmed with LH, and they can just shut down permanently.