T Nation

Can Atheists go to Heaven?

[quote]therajraj wrote:
By any chance did anyone watch the actual vid I posted? Would you guys say he is wrong?[/quote]

Only the atheist and heaven part.

Have I turned away from god?

Dunno.

Still dont know whether heaven is desirable though.

Or hell for that matter.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
he could change the rules that he himself ordained
[/quote]

He didn’t change any of the rules. The rules are still in effect. Whether you follow them or fulfill them is different.[/quote]

But then the rules are like this:

He makes man.[/quote]

Man is good and does God’s will. Decides that God really doesn’t want best for him so doesn’t do God’s will, cast out of Garden of Eden.

[quote]Flawed.

Then he drowns the whole lot, still flawed.

Then he sacrifices son so that he can forgive them that he fucked them up.[/quote]

Man freely choose not to do the best thing for himself, I can’t put that on God.

[quote]Naaaaaa…

Not worship material. [/quote]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Plus, a god that cannot come up with a better sales pitch, probably not worth the effort.
[/quote]

Yes, I got that the first time. Heck, I’ve known this is how you feel for years. And ok, but I’m still not interested. Seriously. You keep repeating yourself as if I’m sitting here trying to share the gospel with you. I’m not. I know you already know it, and have made an informed, consensual, decision to reject it and heaven (in the event of it’s existence). I mean, have I been trying to talk you out of it, or something? It’s like your reacting to a proselyting I’m not even doing. Just to be clear…Ok, I get it. [/quote]

I dont know man, you are telling me for the third time now that you dont care…[/quote]

Because you keep replying as if I said did…

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
he could change the rules that he himself ordained
[/quote]

He didn’t change any of the rules. The rules are still in effect. Whether you follow them or fulfill them is different.[/quote]

But then the rules are like this:

He makes man.[/quote]

Man is good and does God’s will. Decides that God really doesn’t want best for him so doesn’t do God’s will, cast out of Garden of Eden.

[quote]Flawed.

Then he drowns the whole lot, still flawed.

Then he sacrifices son so that he can forgive them that he fucked them up.[/quote]

Man freely choose not to do the best thing for himself, I can’t put that on God.

[quote]Naaaaaa…

Not worship material. [/quote]

[/quote]

God has made you what you are, warts and all.

Its not like he could not have shifted the whole temptation thing in one or the other direction, the point is that he knew what would happen if he made man the way he was.

Allegedly.

To borrow from Hitchens, you are born sick and commanded to be well.

That is not very nice.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Plus, a god that cannot come up with a better sales pitch, probably not worth the effort.
[/quote]

Yes, I got that the first time. Heck, I’ve known this is how you feel for years. And ok, but I’m still not interested. Seriously. You keep repeating yourself as if I’m sitting here trying to share the gospel with you. I’m not. I know you already know it, and have made an informed, consensual, decision to reject it and heaven (in the event of it’s existence). I mean, have I been trying to talk you out of it, or something? It’s like your reacting to a proselyting I’m not even doing. Just to be clear…Ok, I get it. [/quote]

I dont know man, you are telling me for the third time now that you dont care…[/quote]

Because you keep replying as if I said did…
[/quote]

Why would you care?

Maybe I am the stupid?

[quote]orion wrote:

Why would you care?

Maybe I am the stupid?[/quote]

What?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Why would you care?

Maybe I am the stupid?[/quote]

What?[/quote]

I could just be a moron who does not get it.

However, you seem to be determined that I understand without the shadow of a doubt that you do not care.

Why?

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

[quote]orion wrote:

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?
[/quote]

Neither, I’m trying to move forward instead of covering the same ground over and over.

Things I have learned in this thread:

  1. Atheists apparently have very short attention spans.

  2. Orion desperately wants someone to try and convert him - someone, anyone, please.

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Because you keep replying as if I said did… [/quote]I didn’t expect I’d see this from Sloth. A further head dropping disappointment that saddens me greatly. I’m being quite serious. I don’t know how somebody can claim to love Jesus, and claim be saved by His grace from eternal hellfire and tell a fellow human being who is no more deserving of that hellfire than you are that you don’t care about them. =[ I don’t. How is the love of Christ manifested in a heart like that? You’re a Catholic machine Sloth. Ritual in ritual out.

Listen to the heart of the mighty apostle remembering what he endured because he DID love Jesus with everything he was and it showed in his love for the lost. 2 Corinthians 11:23b-29 (nasb)[quote]<<< in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 24-Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25-Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26-I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; 27-I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28-Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 29-Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern? >>>[/quote] Catholicism is pure counterfeit poison. We have a guy here who says he’s a Christian and can’t be bothered to love a lost man through a keyboard and a computer to say nothing of what Paul sacrificed to see men saved. I dunno. I just don’t know what to say to that.

[quote]orion wrote:
God has made you what you are, warts and all.

Its not like he could not have shifted the whole temptation thing in one or the other direction, the point is that he knew what would happen if he made man the way he was.

Allegedly.

To borrow from Hitchens, you are born sick and commanded to be well.

That is not very nice. [/quote]

Lol…what am i fundy now? You’re forgetting free will and Original Sin.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Because you keep replying as if I said did… [/quote]I didn’t expect I’d see this from Sloth. A further head dropping disappointment that saddens me greatly. I’m being quite serious. I don’t know how somebody can claim to love Jesus, and claim be saved by His grace from eternal hellfire and tell a fellow human being who is no more deserving of that hellfire than you are that you don’t care about them. =[ I don’t. How is the love of Christ manifested in a heart like that? You’re a Catholic machine Sloth. Ritual in ritual out.

Listen to the heart of the mighty apostle remembering what he endured because he DID love Jesus with everything he was and it showed in his love for the lost. 2 Corinthians 11:23b-29 (nasb)[quote]<<< in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 24-Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25-Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26-I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; 27-I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28-Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 29-Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern? >>>[/quote] Catholicism is pure counterfeit poison. We have a guy here who says he’s a Christian and can’t be bothered to love a lost man through a keyboard and a computer to say nothing of what Paul sacrificed to see men saved. I dunno. I just don’t know what to say to that.

[/quote]

Inflammatory.

[quote]Orion wrote:<<< To borrow from Hitchens, you are born sick and commanded to be well.

That is not very nice. [/quote] “you will say to me then. Why does He still find fault, for who resists His will? But who are YOU oh man who answers back to God?” Paul in Roman 9 in response to the question of how God can hold men responsible if He has determined who will be saved and who will be lost. Check it out. You won’t care what it says, but that’s the biblical Christian response. God is not running for God. He is the almighty sovereign King of all that is and is entirely unimpressed with anyone’s opinion except His own.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Because you keep replying as if I said did… [/quote]I didn’t expect I’d see this from Sloth. A further head dropping disappointment that saddens me greatly. I’m being quite serious. I don’t know how somebody can claim to love Jesus, and claim be saved by His grace from eternal hellfire and tell a fellow human being who is no more deserving of that hellfire than you are that you don’t care about them. =[ I don’t. How is the love of Christ manifested in a heart like that? You’re a Catholic machine Sloth. Ritual in ritual out.

Listen to the heart of the mighty apostle remembering what he endured because he DID love Jesus with everything he was and it showed in his love for the lost. 2 Corinthians 11:23b-29 (nasb)[quote]<<< in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 24-Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25-Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26-I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; 27-I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28-Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 29-Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern? >>>[/quote] Catholicism is pure counterfeit poison. We have a guy here who says he’s a Christian and can’t be bothered to love a lost man through a keyboard and a computer to say nothing of what Paul sacrificed to see men saved. I dunno. I just don’t know what to say to that.[/quote]

I know exacly what to say to that - give it a rest. There isn’t a thread you won’t distract from with your jeremiad against the Catholic Church and your arrogant insistence on being the arbiter of everyone’s else religion and whether it “measures up”.

First rule of Christianity, Tirib - there is a God, and you aren’t him. So, enough.

So, an acquaintance of mine crashed Dawkins party. http://www.patrickcoffin.net/?p=932

[quote]kamui wrote:
Where do pantheists go after death ?
[/quote]

I know I am dealing with people that know all :)? but do you know what a Pantheist is ???

I’m with Orion on this one. I don’t see the point serving an unseen entity. I’d rather serve fellow human beings who are with me here on Earth, than take a leap of faith on something so unbelievably ludicrous, that it has created more destruction and death than it has good.

But I like Sloth’s stance also. He’s not trying to save us like those damn Witnesses that keep showing up on my door every Sunday like clockwork.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
God has made you what you are, warts and all.

Its not like he could not have shifted the whole temptation thing in one or the other direction, the point is that he knew what would happen if he made man the way he was.

Allegedly.

To borrow from Hitchens, you are born sick and commanded to be well.

That is not very nice. [/quote]

Lol…what am i fundy now? You’re forgetting free will and Original Sin.[/quote]

Both attributes you were created with, at least with the potential.

He knew.

[quote]orion wrote:
Do we want to?
[/quote]

Not this honkey…

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Things I have learned in this thread:

  1. Atheists apparently have very short attention spans.

  2. Orion desperately wants someone to try and convert him - someone, anyone, please.[/quote]

Ja, thats what I am all about.

Though a god that would not insult my intelligence would be nice I suppose.