Calories and Growth on Indigo-3G

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

I would be particularly interested in MODOK’s opinion on this if he sees this thread, as he’s a pharmacist. I know he’s still coming back to lifting now, but it is sort of interesting to me that he’s not one of the long-time posters who is pumping I3G.[/quote]

MODOK already gave his opinion on why he doesn’t use I3G in another thread. I’m pretty sure it was in his “MODOK, How Do You Train” thread.

Link: M - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I fully understand how much time and capital goes into drug research and testing. That doesn’t mean that the time and capital isn’t necessary to protect consumers (granted, not all at this point–but at least some. That’s a question of degree). All your argument to that point suggests is that if there were less oversight of drugs, they would be cheaper and hit the market sooner. It doesn’t speak to safety or transparency at all.

To your point regarding FDA regulation, see my issue is that while typical whey protein might be more like a “food” (which should itself be subject to some sort of oversight along those lines), I3G and similar supplements are quite similar to Bob using Enzyte.

And as to those able to make informed, intelligent decisions, I suppose my point is that it’s unclear as to how informed a purchaser could possibly be about what he or she is buying. Because the company is subjected to so little oversight, what exactly do you mean by informed, intelligent decision? That one reads the ingredients label and makes a decision based on that, or the nutritional content? That one bases a decision off reputation? I guess my point is that none of this speaks to either a) the truth of the product’s claims or b) the long-term effects of the product.

Now, some products have been much more extensively tested. Creatine comes to mind. But in general, I suppose that what’s surprised me about the reaction to I3G (and really any other “super-supplement” in general) is that folks are reading and willing to give it a shot without really knowing a whole lot about it.

That’s why I was interested in getting people like Stu’s opinions about this issue, as they’ve been at the iron game for a long time and have likely given such issues a good deal of thought.

I would be particularly interested in MODOK’s opinion on this if he sees this thread, as he’s a pharmacist. I know he’s still coming back to lifting now, but it is sort of interesting to me that he’s not one of the long-time posters who is pumping I3G.[/quote]

I’m not necessarily suggesting the drugs would be cheaper. If they fill a particular niche, they can be priced at whatever the developer feels is appropriate and I would think that people who need them would find a way to get them. However, the discovery and research process certainly does give the pharmaceutical companies an argument for charging what they do for some products.

The transparency issue was regarding your comment about how some companies might ‘spike’ their products with a little something extra in order to give dramatic results. That is why I mentioned the importance of finding companies with reputations for putting out quality products without that sort of tomfoolery; the issue regarding labeling was more a random offshoot that speaks to my opinion on various supplements and companies that rely too much on that method of labeling.

“Informed, intelligent” decisions comes not only from finding a company that you can “trust” (as much as you can any other entity out to make money), but also from doing your own legwork and do more reading on what you are going to be putting into your body than what you get from the nutrition label or the article that pimps the product.

As far as innovative supplements that haven’t hit the market before (I3G, for example), sure there is uncertainty regarding the potential long-term effects of this sort of drug, and it would be great if they took the time to thoroughly test these sorts of things on their own accord before marketing them… but I wouldn’t be too psyched if the FDA got in on regulating the supp biz any more than it already does and I’m sure not too many people would want to pay even more for I3G than they already do.

It isn’t a life-saving product that will cure a lethal disease. There is no compelling reason for someone to take this product outside of them wanting to get bigger or leaner. As such, there is little pressure for anyone to take it other than because they “want” to. If they are willing to absorb the risks of potentially unknown long-term effects, I say go for it. Buyer beware.

Besides, it’s not like the pharmaceutical testing is so rigorous that dangerous drugs are always weeded out before hitting the market.

look at the training logs. dont the results speak for themselves? I mean its not like we have all newbies in there that would get results from any coaching and consultation. Professional athletes, military folk, in the trenches guys, all with positive things to say and pictures to back the claims. Forget the science, FDA and all that other shit. Look at what it produces.

Every fitness website/magazine is the mouthpiece for a supplement company. IMO T-Nation does it better than most due to the amount of FREE quality information provided.

Its like getting pissed because you see a Mercedes commercial during your favorite TV show, if you can’t afford it then don’t worry about it.

[quote]anonym wrote:
“Informed, intelligent” decisions comes not only from finding a company that you can “trust” (as much as you can any other entity out to make money), but also from doing your own legwork and do more reading on what you are going to be putting into your body than what you get from the nutrition label or the article that pimps the product.
[/quote]

Agreeing with this. There are a hell of a lot of supplement companies out there. Hell, it’s even pretty damn cheap to have another party mix your own to unique specs if you want. The bottom line though, is that these companies are in it (to some degree) to make a profit. Usually, the originator has some ties to the iron-game, which is what prompts the interest in the first place. I’m not saying that some of 'em aren’t just a bunch of fat suit-types who want to cash in on the uneducated masses (young kids who recently found the gym and have no clue what they’re doing). The ones that seem to last though get reputations as being trust worthy in delivering products that deliver and over time they build a solid foundation on repeat customers. One a company has a decent following, the last thing they’d ever want to do is scam, or harm their consumer base.

With that in mind, I’ve been using the brand that I do (take a wild guess which one that is -lol), for about 10 years now. Sure some products weren’t my all time favorites, I can admit that, but one thing I did realize is that a company of any substantial size and history certainly isn’t going to risk releasing any product that is untested, or that cannot be substantiated with some research. Of course not every customer will be 100% thrilled with every product (Tim actually offers a money back guarantee if you didn’t know), but that’s the way things work with FDA approved medications as well.

I feel a hell of a lot safer trusting a new product from this site than anything I’d just find on the shelf in a GNC with a photo of an IFBB Pro touting it as the reason he looks the way he does.

S

[quote]diamonddelts59 wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]darkhorse1-1 wrote:
I’ve posted 7 times. I’m a newb. You caught me. I’m not a pro athlete and I’m never gonna be, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try and be like the giants that play on the gridiron on Saturdays and Sundays in the gym. I’m working on it… slowly.[/quote]

Decent attitude to have. Think about this though for a moment… if Biotest really made a stupidly expensive product, and higher level trainers and athletes bought into it, don’t you think there would have been a humongous backlash if it didn’t deliver results? There are way too many online arenas and venues for people to hear about bad experiences.

The only negatives you can find are from people who admittedly haven’t used the products, but appear to take some personal injury that Biotest recommends their own products on their own site (They are a business in case you forgot). Seems to be the way the industry works.

S[/quote]

hey stu, or anyone else reading this that can answer my question. just read through this post and it sparked a question in my mind. Why is Biotest not advertised anywhere else besides their own site? Is it for exclusivity purposes or what? i know Vitamin Shoppe carries Alpha Male and thats it.[/quote]

i have noticed this to, even with background webpage advertising based on tracker cookies. never any Biotest stuff - quite refreshiing actually

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

I would be particularly interested in MODOK’s opinion on this if he sees this thread, as he’s a pharmacist. I know he’s still coming back to lifting now, but it is sort of interesting to me that he’s not one of the long-time posters who is pumping I3G.[/quote]

MODOK already gave his opinion on why he doesn’t use I3G in another thread. I’m pretty sure it was in his “MODOK, How Do You Train” thread.[/quote]

Honestly guy, I haven’t looked at the science much at all. I get the general theory behind it, but I haven’t dug any deeper. If the supplement is effective, it will become apparent through use.[/quote]

Fair enough. I just remembered the question coming up before, so I posted the link to the answer before someone took your decision not to take IG3 as an indication that it wasn’t effective (and would happen sooner or later with some of the anti- supp threads being started recently).

For me, that link was a pretty detailed explanation of why you don’t “pump IG3”. Didn’t intend to put words in your mouth.

I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. I think the larger issue is how it is effective. And this isn’t to pick on I3G at all–it’s an observation about all supplements that seem to make a substantial difference based on whatever reasoning. The primary issues are a) actually knowing what you’re putting into your body (i.e., you generally don’t); and b) having any idea of what the long-term effects are.

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

Fair enough, but I guess I would just say that my observations earlier are not related to that issue. I’m not trying to put words into MODOK’s mouth either. The primary reason I’m interested in his perspective is that he’s a pharmacist–i.e., he has a much deeper perspective on all of this supplement stuff than the rest of us do.

But anyway, the issues that I pointed to were my main concern–it seems fairly clear to me that I3G is highly effective; the question is how and how much faith is going into supplement producers in general.

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/what_happens_when_[/quote]

Fair enough, but I guess I would just say that my observations earlier are not related to that issue.[/quote]

Of course it doesn’t relate to your earlier observations - that last statement of yours came afterwards…That second link was a direct response to your assertion that nobody has “alleged IG3 is ineffective”. They have. Same thing happened when the Anaconda protocol was released.

I assumed that to make such a remark you hadn’t seen anybody slating IG3, so I posted an example of someone who did. Why am I having to explain my explanations?

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

Fair enough, but I guess I would just say that my observations earlier are not related to that issue.[/quote]

Of course it doesn’t relate to your earlier observations - that last statement of yours came afterwards…That second link was a direct response to your assertion that nobody has “alleged IG3 is ineffective”. They have. Same thing happened when the Anaconda protocol was released.

I assumed that to make such a remark you hadn’t seen anybody slating IG3, so I posted an example of someone who did. Why am I having to explain my explanations?

[/quote]
I thought that guy was just bitching about Biotest in general… I’m not sure he even used I3G.

I’m not “bitching about” Biotest; I just think that one interesting and rarely addressed topic is how comfortable we as consumers should be with the supplement industry in general (i.e., not just Biotest–I’m speaking more generally). I know it’s a topic that’s often discussed on, e.g., Iron Radio with Dr. Lowrey, but it doesn’t get much discussion here (likely for obvious reasons).

I3G is just an example of a “get great results” drug (or we can call it a supplement if you prefer) on the market, where the producer gives a biological explanation of what’s in it and how it works and then some of us take it. My initial post was just to ask someone like Stu or MODOK what their feeling is about potential long-term effects of taking these sort of supplements that are very new to the market when there hasn’t been very much oversight regarding their safety, as well as what their feeling is about the potential that what we might think is doing the work (i.e. what we are told is doing the work) isn’t really the whole story regarding the supplement.

So, to use a hyperbolic example, a supplement that promises big gains due to [insert partitioning theory/etc], only to have it turn out that there was some sort of low-concentration oral steroid or something like that doing some of the additional work; or as another alternative, taking whatever new supplement only to find a number of years down the road that it was carcinogenic/caused kidney or liver damage/whatever.

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I’m not “bitching about” Biotest;[/quote]
not you, the guy who started the thread.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

Fair enough, but I guess I would just say that my observations earlier are not related to that issue.[/quote]

Of course it doesn’t relate to your earlier observations - that last statement of yours came afterwards…That second link was a direct response to your assertion that nobody has “alleged IG3 is ineffective”. They have. Same thing happened when the Anaconda protocol was released.

I assumed that to make such a remark you hadn’t seen anybody slating IG3, so I posted an example of someone who did. Why am I having to explain my explanations?

[/quote]
I thought that guy was just bitching about Biotest in general… I’m not sure he even used I3G.[/quote]

He hadn’t, but he was clearly trying to infer that Indigo-3G was ineffective, anyway…

Opening paragraph:

"What happens when…

You have a large amount of faithful readers… which you give this extremely over priced supplement to claiming massive gains? But not only give them the supplement… strongly encourage them to record all their meals, workouts etc? Is it not bloody obvious that maybe its not the supplement doing the work, that perhaps thats what happens 95% of the time when someone begins recording their stuff? "

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

I would be particularly interested in MODOK’s opinion on this if he sees this thread, as he’s a pharmacist. I know he’s still coming back to lifting now, but it is sort of interesting to me that he’s not one of the long-time posters who is pumping I3G.[/quote]

MODOK already gave his opinion on why he doesn’t use I3G in another thread. I’m pretty sure it was in his “MODOK, How Do You Train” thread.[/quote]

Honestly guy, I haven’t looked at the science much at all. I get the general theory behind it, but I haven’t dug any deeper. If the supplement is effective, it will become apparent through use.[/quote]

Fair enough. I just remembered the question coming up before, so I posted the link to the answer before someone took your decision not to take IG3 as an indication that it wasn’t effective (and would happen sooner or later with some of the anti- supp threads being started recently).

For me, that link was a pretty detailed explanation of why you don’t “pump IG3”. Didn’t intend to put words in your mouth. [/quote]

I didn’t mean to single you out by saying “guy”, I meant to type “guys”. You all have gotten my intellectual curiosity upa little about the compound thanks to your interesting questions about it. I will dig around in OVID over the next couple of days and see what I can come up with for us.
[/quote]

It’s cool. I only posted that link because you said you were happy enough with your diet that you didn’t need to use it. That was in reference to his " why doesn’t MODOK pump IG3?" question and that question only.

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

I would be particularly interested in MODOK’s opinion on this if he sees this thread, as he’s a pharmacist. I know he’s still coming back to lifting now, but it is sort of interesting to me that he’s not one of the long-time posters who is pumping I3G.[/quote]

MODOK already gave his opinion on why he doesn’t use I3G in another thread. I’m pretty sure it was in his “MODOK, How Do You Train” thread.[/quote]

Honestly guy, I haven’t looked at the science much at all. I get the general theory behind it, but I haven’t dug any deeper. If the supplement is effective, it will become apparent through use.[/quote]

Fair enough. I just remembered the question coming up before, so I posted the link to the answer before someone took your decision not to take IG3 as an indication that it wasn’t effective (and would happen sooner or later with some of the anti- supp threads being started recently).

For me, that link was a pretty detailed explanation of why you don’t “pump IG3”. Didn’t intend to put words in your mouth. [/quote]

I didn’t mean to single you out by saying “guy”, I meant to type “guys”. You all have gotten my intellectual curiosity upa little about the compound thanks to your interesting questions about it. I will dig around in OVID over the next couple of days and see what I can come up with for us.
[/quote]

I will be very interested to hear the thoughts and what your research turns up.

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

Fair enough, but I guess I would just say that my observations earlier are not related to that issue.[/quote]

Of course it doesn’t relate to your earlier observations - that last statement of yours came afterwards…That second link was a direct response to your assertion that nobody has “alleged IG3 is ineffective”. They have. Same thing happened when the Anaconda protocol was released.

I assumed that to make such a remark you hadn’t seen anybody slating IG3, so I posted an example of someone who did. Why am I having to explain my explanations?

[/quote]
I thought that guy was just bitching about Biotest in general… I’m not sure he even used I3G.[/quote]

He hadn’t, but he was clearly trying to infer that Indigo-3G was ineffective, anyway…

Opening paragraph:

"What happens when…

You have a large amount of faithful readers… which you give this extremely over priced supplement to claiming massive gains? But not only give them the supplement… strongly encourage them to record all their meals, workouts etc? Is it not bloody obvious that maybe its not the supplement doing the work, that perhaps thats what happens 95% of the time when someone begins recording their stuff? "[/quote]
I know, that’s my point. His opinion is irrelevant on Indigo-3G as he hasn’t tried it. I just got back on Indigo-3G two days ago and am already noticing a leaner body, with fuller muscle bellies. Haven’t changed nutrition or lifting one bit.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
I don’t think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. [/quote]

Already happened:

Fair enough, but I guess I would just say that my observations earlier are not related to that issue.[/quote]

Of course it doesn’t relate to your earlier observations - that last statement of yours came afterwards…That second link was a direct response to your assertion that nobody has “alleged IG3 is ineffective”. They have. Same thing happened when the Anaconda protocol was released.

I assumed that to make such a remark you hadn’t seen anybody slating IG3, so I posted an example of someone who did. Why am I having to explain my explanations?

[/quote]
I thought that guy was just bitching about Biotest in general… I’m not sure he even used I3G.[/quote]

He hadn’t, but he was clearly trying to infer that Indigo-3G was ineffective, anyway…

Opening paragraph:

"What happens when…

You have a large amount of faithful readers… which you give this extremely over priced supplement to claiming massive gains? But not only give them the supplement… strongly encourage them to record all their meals, workouts etc? Is it not bloody obvious that maybe its not the supplement doing the work, that perhaps thats what happens 95% of the time when someone begins recording their stuff? "[/quote]

I know, that’s my point. His opinion is irrelevant on Indigo-3G as he hasn’t tried it. I just got back on Indigo-3G two days ago and am already noticing a leaner body, with fuller muscle bellies. Haven’t changed nutrition or lifting one bit.[/quote]

Well he wasn’t bitching about Biotest supps in general to begin with. He started this thread targeting Indigo-3G, then started another one on ANACONDA shortly after I mentioned it in another thread. So yeah, he has no interest in it and he’s a troll. There’s no doubt that he hasn’t used it - he’s a level 0.

Edit: meant to say when I mentioned Anaconda in this thread…