T Nation

Calories and Growth on Indigo-3G


#1

I'm not trying to be a negative nancy or anything, but I was under the impression that when you eat something in excess no matter what it is (protein,carbs,fat) that it will turn into fat. I don't know what kind of diet Indigo-3G users are on, but It doesn't make sense that calories can be diverted to one location or another in the metabolic pathway (IDK if metabolic pathway is the right term but it sounded good so I said it).

I'm a believer in "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is" Indigo-3G sounds fricken awesome so I'm guessing I probably won't see shit from it. For $160 a bottle at the suggested servings per day it better be guaranteed by God himself to yield results. If you do the math ((180 capsules/4)/3 meals a day))=15 365/15= about 25 bottles 25*160= 4 grand a year. You need to have a salary like that linebacker who plays for the Texans who uses Indigo-3G T-Nation just ran an article on today. I haven't used any Biotest stuff, but for the prices this stuff runs it better be secret shit that nobody can get except for elite Olympic coaches and professional sports teams.


#2

It's not just calories in vs calories out that determines gains, no matter what some people seem to think. Your body will make use of certain macronutrients at specific times of the day (due to hormonal profiles at the time) with better efficiency than others. It's not that the I3G product magically makes fat into muscle, it just makes your body more receptive to using ingested nutrients during periods where its uptake of them in order to synthesize new proteins in vital.

Questioning any new supplement is normal, especially the really expensive ones, but even Shugart and Thibs will tell you repeatedly that it's not a newbie supplement. That's why Tim picked the individuals he did this past Summer, and the newer ones for BC2 in a couple of months.

These are folks who know how to train, how to eat, how to supplement, and they know that nothing will magically put 10-15 lbs of muscle on them overnight, but that shifting the metabolic scales even slightly can lead to impressive (realistically impressive, not "I'm gonna look like Cutler in a few weeks!"-impressive) gains.

If you haven't used any Biotest supplements, maybe you should step back before becoming one of the many who criticize with absolutely no experience from which to speak from. I didn't always use as many of the products as I do now, but once I switched to Metabolic Drive years ago, that became my staple protein source and I never had the need to look for an alternative.

If you're happy with your current results (I read your other posts, IMHO you've got a ways to go), then by all means maintain what you're doing, and keep complaining about people who do differently. If not, you might just do yourself a favor and open your mind (and no, I'm not saying to buy Indigo, I think it would be wasted on your current level of current progress).

S


#3

I wasn't criticizing. I was just saying it's expensive and for the money it better be good. I do apologize for the sarcasm, but it is an attitude common to many TNation articles so I figured it'd be taken lightly. I don't train hard enough to need this stuff. You're right though. I don't have the volume in my workouts that requires supps like I3G.

I wasn't gonna let the "appeal to ego" on the I3G page get me that easily. I'm making gains right now too so until I need a plateau breaker and I have 12 sets of 2 on squats I'm going to stick with what I got. I've posted 7 times. I'm a newb. You caught me. I'm not a pro athlete and I'm never gonna be, but that doesn't mean I can't try and be like the giants that play on the gridiron on Saturdays and Sundays in the gym. I'm working on it... slowly.


#4

Stu, I appreciate and understand your perspective, but I do wonder about a few things about the supplement industry in general that maybe you can give your perspective regarding.

First, regarding Indigo and other "miracle" products (not to say that I3G is supposed to be a miracle worker, but it's clearly marketed to be giving some serious benefits vis-a-vis other non-AAS supplementation), isn't the whole decision to take it a giant leap of faith?

I sometimes think of this even when I buy whey protein. I buy my whey from my supplier, and my supplier gives me an ingredients label and nutritional information about the product. But the product isn't FDA approved, nor is it regulated by any oversight of which I'm aware. Ultimately, my taking the whey is a big leap of faith on my part.

I feel like the same applies a fortiori to something like I3G. I've read the biological explanation they give as to why it does what it does, and it seems sensible enough. But for you, as someone who uses the stuff, is there anything else to go on besides their word that they haven't put something else in it that's generating the benefit?

I'm not trying to be a 'conspiracy theorist' or anything, but it's just sort of disturbing to me that companies (including Biotest) are able to market and sell these products without any meaningful testing structure along the lines of, say, pharmaceuticals (begin with animal testing, etc).

Because I hardly see the difference between something like I3G and medicine, at least insofar as it impacts whether there should be studies conducted before companies are allowed to sell them. Because how much do we honestly know about the long-term effects of I3G, or any other supplement of that sort? And moreover, how do you know that what is purported to be in it is the only thing doing the work?

This isn't to impugn or allege anything about Biotest. It's just something that crosses my mind every time I see a new supplement, and I'm curious as to what someone with far more experience than I thinks about that/whether you have any concerns about it.

I3G isn't right for me for a number of reasons--price, my own intermediate experience level, ha, and did I mention price? But I also wouldn't choose to take it because I don't know that I trust Biotest enough to take something like that, which hasn't been extensively tested and about which there is almost no information about the long-term effects of its use.


#5

Decent attitude to have. Think about this though for a moment.. if Biotest really made a stupidly expensive product, and higher level trainers and athletes bought into it, don't you think there would have been a humongous backlash if it didn't deliver results? There are way too many online arenas and venues for people to hear about bad experiences.

The only negatives you can find are from people who admittedly haven't used the products, but appear to take some personal injury that Biotest recommends their own products on their own site (They are a business in case you forgot). Seems to be the way the industry works.

S


#6

hey stu, or anyone else reading this that can answer my question. just read through this post and it sparked a question in my mind. Why is Biotest not advertised anywhere else besides their own site? Is it for exclusivity purposes or what? i know Vitamin Shoppe carries Alpha Male and thats it.


#7

This is not the case. The (online) seller that I transact with sells Biotest stuff, albeit a limited selection compared to this site (which is to be expected).


#8

The idea is they take out the middle man to keep costs as low as they can for customers. If they sold it to retail stores, the store would have to mark it up to make a profit, where Biotest selling only from their site basically sells us the product for the price they would sell to a store for.


#9

I guess when my nervous system requires that I lift like a man I'll know where to turn for the man supplements. Hopefully I'll have a job then. I'll buy Biotest and live out of my car not being able to afford gas to drive anywhere. I'll just have to make sure there is a shanty town close to a gym. Seriously pardon my sarcasm. I honestly think Biotest's products sound awesome.


#10

Do a little reading into the time and money necessary for new drug development.

Ask yourself if you are willing to wait that much longer and pay that much more for your supplements.

I DO like the idea of better transparency as far as the ingredient list goes (I typically avoid "proprietary" blends for this reason), but I suppose that doesn't matter if they are using "off label" ingredients.

The supplement industry can be pretty shady at times, and that highlights the importance of putting in the time and energy to find a company with a good reputation. But I am very much all set with any more regulations regarding what I can or can not put into my body.

Asking the FDA to step in and keep the dietary supplement industry in line might help with, say, people trying to be like Bob by using Enzyte or who indiscriminately throw multiple kitchen sink supplements into their body... but ultimately I think it would screw over those of us who are able to research and make informed, intelligent decisions.


#11

I fully understand how much time and capital goes into drug research and testing. That doesn't mean that the time and capital isn't necessary to protect consumers (granted, not all at this point--but at least some. That's a question of degree). All your argument to that point suggests is that if there were less oversight of drugs, they would be cheaper and hit the market sooner. It doesn't speak to safety or transparency at all.

To your point regarding FDA regulation, see my issue is that while typical whey protein might be more like a "food" (which should itself be subject to some sort of oversight along those lines), I3G and similar supplements are quite similar to Bob using Enzyte.

And as to those able to make informed, intelligent decisions, I suppose my point is that it's unclear as to how informed a purchaser could possibly be about what he or she is buying. Because the company is subjected to so little oversight, what exactly do you mean by informed, intelligent decision? That one reads the ingredients label and makes a decision based on that, or the nutritional content? That one bases a decision off reputation? I guess my point is that none of this speaks to either a) the truth of the product's claims or b) the long-term effects of the product.

Now, some products have been much more extensively tested. Creatine comes to mind. But in general, I suppose that what's surprised me about the reaction to I3G (and really any other "super-supplement" in general) is that folks are reading and willing to give it a shot without really knowing a whole lot about it.

That's why I was interested in getting people like Stu's opinions about this issue, as they've been at the iron game for a long time and have likely given such issues a good deal of thought.

I would be particularly interested in MODOK's opinion on this if he sees this thread, as he's a pharmacist. I know he's still coming back to lifting now, but it is sort of interesting to me that he's not one of the long-time posters who is pumping I3G.


#12

MODOK already gave his opinion on why he doesn't use I3G in another thread. I'm pretty sure it was in his "MODOK, How Do You Train" thread.


#13

Link: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/modok_how_do_you_train?pageNo=6


#14

I'm not necessarily suggesting the drugs would be cheaper. If they fill a particular niche, they can be priced at whatever the developer feels is appropriate and I would think that people who need them would find a way to get them. However, the discovery and research process certainly does give the pharmaceutical companies an argument for charging what they do for some products.

The transparency issue was regarding your comment about how some companies might 'spike' their products with a little something extra in order to give dramatic results. That is why I mentioned the importance of finding companies with reputations for putting out quality products without that sort of tomfoolery; the issue regarding labeling was more a random offshoot that speaks to my opinion on various supplements and companies that rely too much on that method of labeling.

"Informed, intelligent" decisions comes not only from finding a company that you can "trust" (as much as you can any other entity out to make money), but also from doing your own legwork and do more reading on what you are going to be putting into your body than what you get from the nutrition label or the article that pimps the product.

As far as innovative supplements that haven't hit the market before (I3G, for example), sure there is uncertainty regarding the potential long-term effects of this sort of drug, and it would be great if they took the time to thoroughly test these sorts of things on their own accord before marketing them... but I wouldn't be too psyched if the FDA got in on regulating the supp biz any more than it already does and I'm sure not too many people would want to pay even more for I3G than they already do.

It isn't a life-saving product that will cure a lethal disease. There is no compelling reason for someone to take this product outside of them wanting to get bigger or leaner. As such, there is little pressure for anyone to take it other than because they "want" to. If they are willing to absorb the risks of potentially unknown long-term effects, I say go for it. Buyer beware.

Besides, it's not like the pharmaceutical testing is so rigorous that dangerous drugs are always weeded out before hitting the market.


#15

look at the training logs. dont the results speak for themselves? I mean its not like we have all newbies in there that would get results from any coaching and consultation. Professional athletes, military folk, in the trenches guys, all with positive things to say and pictures to back the claims. Forget the science, FDA and all that other shit. Look at what it produces.


#16

Every fitness website/magazine is the mouthpiece for a supplement company. IMO T-Nation does it better than most due to the amount of FREE quality information provided.

Its like getting pissed because you see a Mercedes commercial during your favorite TV show, if you can't afford it then don't worry about it.


#17

Agreeing with this. There are a hell of a lot of supplement companies out there. Hell, it's even pretty damn cheap to have another party mix your own to unique specs if you want. The bottom line though, is that these companies are in it (to some degree) to make a profit. Usually, the originator has some ties to the iron-game, which is what prompts the interest in the first place. I'm not saying that some of 'em aren't just a bunch of fat suit-types who want to cash in on the uneducated masses (young kids who recently found the gym and have no clue what they're doing). The ones that seem to last though get reputations as being trust worthy in delivering products that deliver and over time they build a solid foundation on repeat customers. One a company has a decent following, the last thing they'd ever want to do is scam, or harm their consumer base.

With that in mind, I've been using the brand that I do (take a wild guess which one that is -lol), for about 10 years now. Sure some products weren't my all time favorites, I can admit that, but one thing I did realize is that a company of any substantial size and history certainly isn't going to risk releasing any product that is untested, or that cannot be substantiated with some research. Of course not every customer will be 100% thrilled with every product (Tim actually offers a money back guarantee if you didn't know), but that's the way things work with FDA approved medications as well.

I feel a hell of a lot safer trusting a new product from this site than anything I'd just find on the shelf in a GNC with a photo of an IFBB Pro touting it as the reason he looks the way he does.

S


#18

i have noticed this to, even with background webpage advertising based on tracker cookies. never any Biotest stuff - quite refreshiing actually


#19

Fair enough. I just remembered the question coming up before, so I posted the link to the answer before someone took your decision not to take IG3 as an indication that it wasn't effective (and would happen sooner or later with some of the anti- supp threads being started recently).

For me, that link was a pretty detailed explanation of why you don't "pump IG3". Didn't intend to put words in your mouth.


#20

I don't think that anyone would allege I3G to be ineffective. I think the larger issue is how it is effective. And this isn't to pick on I3G at all--it's an observation about all supplements that seem to make a substantial difference based on whatever reasoning. The primary issues are a) actually knowing what you're putting into your body (i.e., you generally don't); and b) having any idea of what the long-term effects are.