California Requires Gay History to be Taught

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe we could teach the kids the following information about homosexuality. But for some reason I doubt that there would be any real facts taught by the “teachers”:

[quote]The media portrays the homosexual lifestyle and relationships as happy, healthy and stable. However, the homosexual lifestyle is associated with a large number of very serious physical and emotional health consequences. Many ?committed? homosexual relationships only last a few years. This raises doubts as to whether children raised in same-sex households are being raised in a protective environment.

A. There are very high rates of sexual promiscuity among the homosexual population with short duration of even ?committed? relationships.

A study of homosexual men shows that more than 75% of homosexual men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: approximately 15% claimed to have had 100-249 sex partners, 17% claimed 250-499, 15% claimed 500-999 and 28% claimed more than 1,000 lifetime sexual partners. ( Bell AP, Weinberg MS. Homosexualities. New York 1978) .

Promiscuity among lesbian women is less extreme, but is still higher than among heterosexual women. Many ?lesbian? women also have sex with men. Lesbian women were more than 4 times as likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women. (Fethers K et al. Sexually transmitted infections and risk behaviours in women who have sex with women. Sexually Transmitted Infections 2000; 76: 345-9.)

Far higher rates of promiscuity are observed even within ?committed? gay relationships than in heterosexual marriage: In Holland, male homosexual relationships last, on average, 1.5 years, and gay men have an average of eight partners a year outside of their supposedly ?committed? relationships. (Xiridou M, et al. The contribution of steady and casual partnerships to the incidence of HIV infection among homosexual men in Amsterdam . AIDS. 2003; 17: 1029-38.) Gay men have sex with someone other than their primary partner in 66% of relationships within the first year, rising to 90% of relationships after five years . (Harry J. Gay Couples. New York . 1984)

In an online survey among nearly 8,000 homosexuals, 71% of same-sex relationships lasted less than eight years. Only 9% of all same-sex relationships lasted longer than 16 years. (2003-2004 Gay & Lesbian Consumer Online Census; www.glcensus.org)

The high rates of promiscuity are not surprising: Gay authors admit that ?gay liberation was founded ? on a sexual brotherhood of promiscuity.? (Rotello G. Sexual Ecology. New York 1998)

B. Among homosexuals, highly risky sexual practices such as anal sex are very common.

The majority of homosexual men (60%) engage in anal sex, frequently without condom and even, if they know that they are HIV positive. (Mercer CH et al. Increasing prevalence of male homosexual partnerships and practices in Britain 1990-2000. AIDS. 2004; 18: 1453-8) As a result, a large number of diseases are associated with anal intercourse, many of which are rare or even unknown in the heterosexual population such as: anal cancer, Chlamydia trachomatis, Cryptosporidium, Giardia lamblia, Herpes simplex virus, HIV, Human papilloma virus, Isospora belli, Microsporidia, Gonorrhoea, Syphilis, Hepatitis B and C and others. ( www.netdoctor.co.uk;www.gayhealthchannel.com; )

There is a significant increase in the risk of contracting HIV when engaging in anal sex. Young homosexual men aged 15-22, who ever had anal sex had a fivefold increased risk of contracting HIV than those who never engaged in anal sex. (Valleroy L, et al. HIV prevalence and associated risks in young men who have sex with men. JAMA. 2000; 284: 198-204.)

The term ?barebacking? refers to intentional unsafe anal sex. In a study of HIV-positive gay men, the majority of participants (84%) reported engaging in barebacking in the past three months, and 43% of the men reported recent bareback sex with a partner who most likely is not infected with HIV, therefore putting another man at risk of contracting HIV. (Halkitis PN. Intentional unsafe sex (barebacking) among HIV-positive gay men who seek sexual partners on the Internet. AIDS Care. 2003; 15: 367-78.)

While many homosexuals are aware of HIV risk, a large number are unaware of the increased risk of contracting non-HIV STDs, many of which have serious complications or may not be curable . (K-Y lubricant and the National Lesbian and Gay Health Association survey )

While ?always? condom use reduces the risk of contracting HIV by about 85%, Condoms, even when used 100% of the time, fail to give adequate levels of protection against many non-HIV STDs such as Syphilis, Gonorrhoea, Chlamydia, Herpes, Genital Warts and others. The only safe sex is, apart from abstinence, mutual monogamy with an uninfected partner. (Sex, Condoms, and STDs: What We Now Know. Medical Institute for Sexual Health. 2002)

C. Homosexuals have very high rates of sexually transmitted infections such as HIV which pose a major burden to the health service.

Over 70% of all AIDS diagnoses in Canada in adults over the age of 15 up to June 2004 were in homosexual men (13,019 out of 19,238). 60% of all positive HIV tests are found in homosexual men. This contrasts with just over 15% of all positive HIV tests which are due to heterosexual contact. (Public Health Agency of Canada . HIV and AIDS in Canada . November 2004) .

The recently observed dramatic increases in syphilis in many large cities such as Los Angeles , San Francisco , but also in London and Manchester , UK are in the majority observed in homosexual men. ( Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Trends in primary and secondary syphilis and HIV infections in men who have sex with men. MMWR 2004; 53: 575-8. and Nicoll A. Are trends in HIV, gonorrhoea, and syphilis worsening in western Europe? BMJ 2002; 324:1324-7.)

D. There are increased rates of mental ill health among the homosexual population compared to the general population. Many studies show much higher rates of psychiatric illness, such as depression, suicide attempts and drug abuse among homosexuals then among the general population. The homosexual lifestyle is associated with a shortened life expectancy of up to 20 years.

In a New Zealand study, data were gathered on a range of psychiatric disorders among gay, lesbian, and bisexual young people. At the age of 21, homosexuals/bisexuals were at fourfold increased risks of major depression and conduct disorder, fivefold increased risk of nicotine dependence, twofold increased risk of other substance misuse or addiction and six times more likely to have attempted suicide. (Fergusson DM et al. Is sexual orientation related to mental health problems and suicidality in young people? Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1999; 56: 876-80.)

In a recent US study of the mental health of homosexuals, it was found that gay/bisexual men had a more than 3-fold increased risk of major depression and a five-fold increased risk of panic disorder. They were three times as likely to rate their mental health as only ?fair? or ?poor? and to experience high levels of distress. Gay/bisexual women had a nearly four-fold increased risk of general anxiety disorder and both groups were more than three times as likely than the general population to require treatment in a mental health setting. (Cochran S. et al. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental health services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States . J Consult Clin Psychol. 2003; 71 :53-61.)

It is claimed, that the high rates of mental illness among homosexuals are the result of ?homophobia?. However, even in the Netherlands, which has been far more tolerant to same-sex relationships and which has recently legalised same-sex marriages, high levels of psychiatric illness, including major depression, bipolar disorder (?manic depression?), agoraphobia , obsessive compulsive disorder and drug addiction are found. (Sandfort TG, et al. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders: findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS). Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001; 58 :85-91.)

Furthermore, if ?homophobia? and prejudices were the cause of the high rates of psychiatric disorders and suicide attempts among homosexuals, one would similarly expect to find higher rates of suicide attempts and suicide among ethnic minorities exposed to racism. However, this is not usually the case.

In a Vancouver study, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, it is estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. (Hogg RS et al. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men. International Journal of Epidemiology.1997; 26:657-61 )

  1. Homosexuality and pedophilia .

Any attempts to legalise gay marriage should be aware of the link between homosexuality and pedophilia. While the majority of homosexuals are not involved in pedophilia, it is of grave concern that there is a disproportionately greater number of homosexuals among pedophiles and an overlap between the gay movement and the movement to make pedophilia acceptable

One well known historic example on the link between homosexuality and pedophilia is found in ancient Greece . Greek mythology is saturated with stories of pedophilia and ancient Greek literature praises pedophilia. The age group of boys that were used for ?sexual pleasure? was probably in the range of 12-17. Male prostitution was very common with brothels in which boys and young men were available. There is evidence for an extensive trade in boys . (Churchill W. Homosexual Behavior among Males. Hawthorn. New York . 1967)

There are links between pedophilia and homosexuality. The political scientist Prof. Mirkin wrote in a paper that: ?pedophile organizations were originally a part of the gay/lesbian coalition?? (Mirkin H. The pattern of sexual politics: feminism, homosexuality and pedophilia. Journal of Homosexuality 1999; 37: 1-24.). There is an overlap between the ?gay movement? and the movement to make pedophilia acceptable through organisations such as the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), as admitted by David Thorstad, Co-founder of NAMBLA writing in the Journal of Homosexuality. (Thorstad D. Man/boy love and the American gay movement. Journal of Homosexuality. 1990; 20 : 251-74)

The number of homosexuals in essentially all surveys is less than 3%. (Statistics Canada found only 1% of the population who described themselves as homosexual.) However, the percentage of homosexuals among pedophiles is 25%. (Blanchard R et al. Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior 2000; 29: 463-78.) Therefore, the prevalence of pedophilia among homosexuals is about 10-25 times higher than one would expect if the proportion of pedophiles were evenly distributed within the (hetero- and homosexual) populations.[/quote]
[/quote]

Somehow I don’t think thats what they had in mind when they teach gay history. I think they mean they’ll teach that everyone famous was a fag.

22

[quote]clip11 wrote:

That last line was actually rather ingenious.

23

An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.

24

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

I found the Aesopos quote especially entertaining. I hope you have no intention of ever practicing anal sex with a woman, or Zeus will strike you down!

25

No way does this belong in any elementary or middle school classroom with anyone under the age of 15. What this will do is make every kid question their sexuality because they are taught it’s OK and perfectly normal, and they will now think it’s a legitimate choice for them.

Way to go CA!

26

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth.

27

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth. [/quote]

Pish posh, not only did I find that exact same post predominantly on stormfront.org and sites of that ilk, it is also blatant nonsense in that it substitutes our view of homosexuality with theirs, ignores historic development, takes wishful thinking like Platos as fact and is generally icky on an intellectual level.

If that is all you have,you have nothing.

28

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth. [/quote]

Pish posh, not only did I find that exact same post predominantly on stormfront.org and sites of that ilk, it is also blatant nonsense in that it substitutes our view of homosexuality with theirs, ignores historic development, takes wishful thinking like Platos as fact and is generally icky on an intellectual level.

If that is all you have,you have nothing.

[/quote]

If anyone wants actual facts about gays in ancient Greece, here’s some interesting reading on Wiki:

Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

Sacred Band of Thebes (especially interesting, since the entire troop consisted of 150 gay (pederastic) couples which formed the elite force of Thebes and played a crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra).

29

[quote]orion wrote:

Pish posh,[/quote]

“You were taking a bath along about Saturday night!”

Bobby Darrin

(I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago - When you began disrespecting my country.)

30

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth. [/quote]

Pish posh, not only did I find that exact same post predominantly on stormfront.org and sites of that ilk, it is also blatant nonsense in that it substitutes our view of homosexuality with theirs, ignores historic development, takes wishful thinking like Platos as fact and is generally icky on an intellectual level.

If that is all you have,you have nothing.

[/quote]

If anyone wants actual facts about gays in ancient Greece, here’s some interesting reading on Wiki:

Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

Sacred Band of Thebes (especially interesting, since the entire troop consisted of 150 gay (pederastic) couples which formed the elite force of Thebes and played a crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra).[/quote]

You’re not happy with the facts so you choose to disregard them and make up your own. How like you!

Any retort to to the CDC’s statistic that almost 60% of all new HIV positive cases come from gay men? What a lively and carefree bunch you belong to. They don’t care if they spread HIV as long as they can have sex the wold is a happy place.

Sick.

31

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Pish posh,[/quote]

“You were taking a bath along about Saturday night!”

Bobby Darrin

(I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago - When you began disrespecting my country.)

[/quote]

So?

32

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth. [/quote]

Pish posh, not only did I find that exact same post predominantly on stormfront.org and sites of that ilk, it is also blatant nonsense in that it substitutes our view of homosexuality with theirs, ignores historic development, takes wishful thinking like Platos as fact and is generally icky on an intellectual level.

If that is all you have,you have nothing.

[/quote]

If anyone wants actual facts about gays in ancient Greece, here’s some interesting reading on Wiki:

Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

Sacred Band of Thebes (especially interesting, since the entire troop consisted of 150 gay (pederastic) couples which formed the elite force of Thebes and played a crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra).[/quote]

You’re not happy with the facts so you choose to disregard them and make up your own. How like you!

Any retort to to the CDC’s statistic that almost 60% of all new HIV positive cases come from gay men? What a lively and carefree bunch you belong to. They don’t care if they spread HIV as long as they can have sex the wold is a happy place.

Sick.

[/quote]

See, here are the rules.

If you just got caught cruising stormfront.org or vannguard.com or some such in search of inspiration for anti gay rethoric that is blatantly uninformed if not idiotic and reply to that discovery with “I stopped respecting you when you stopped respecting my country” you really do not get to accuse someone else of “ignoring facts”.

But, if that helps, you are still American, USA, USA and so further and so on.

33

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth. [/quote]

Pish posh, not only did I find that exact same post predominantly on stormfront.org and sites of that ilk, it is also blatant nonsense in that it substitutes our view of homosexuality with theirs, ignores historic development, takes wishful thinking like Platos as fact and is generally icky on an intellectual level.

If that is all you have,you have nothing.

[/quote]

If anyone wants actual facts about gays in ancient Greece, here’s some interesting reading on Wiki:

Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

Sacred Band of Thebes (especially interesting, since the entire troop consisted of 150 gay (pederastic) couples which formed the elite force of Thebes and played a crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra).[/quote]

You’re not happy with the facts so you choose to disregard them and make up your own. How like you!

Any retort to to the CDC’s statistic that almost 60% of all new HIV positive cases come from gay men? What a lively and carefree bunch you belong to. They don’t care if they spread HIV as long as they can have sex the wold is a happy place.

Sick.

[/quote]

See, here are the rules.

If you just got caught cruising stormfront.org or vannguard.com or some such in search of inspiration for anti gay rethoric that is blatantly uninformed if not idiotic and reply to that discovery with “I stopped respecting you when you stopped respecting my country” you really do not get to accuse someone else of “ignoring facts”.

But, if that helps, you are still American, USA, USA and so further and so on.

[/quote]

The facts are solid and all you can do is attack the source. So if the Pope says something pro Catholic it is automatically disregarded? Or do you actually need some evidence to attack what he said. Tell me, do you ever think before posting this crap? Never mind I know the answer.

You’re the very opposite of what you worship --LOGIC!

34

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
An old post of mine on gay historical revisionism in ancient Greece:

Homosexuality in ancient Greece:

The Attic word for homosexual is ‘kinaidos’, literally ‘causer of shame’

  • Root: ‘Kineo’ - to move
  • Stem: ‘Aidos’ - shame

Aido was the Goddess who punished moral transgressors.

source Liddell and Scott’s Advanced Greek Lexicon.

The Spartan laws are not known as they were transmitted via word of mouth. All we know of the Spartan constitution comes from Xenophon’s ‘The Politeia of the Spartans’ and it doesn’t cover laws relating to homosexuality. However we DO know about the laws in Athens, the most liberal citystate in all of Greece:

From Aeschines:

If any Athenian shall have ‘Etairese’(same sex relations) he shall not be permitted to:

  1. Become one of the nine archons.

  2. Nor to discharge the office of priest.

  3. Nor to act as an advocate for the state.

  4. Nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or election: he shall not be sent as a herald.

  5. He shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices

  6. He shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of illegal sexual activities contrary to these prohibitions he shall be put to death.

And Demosthenes:

…nor shall they have the right to speak, nor bring a charge before the court.

Plato’s Laws:

‘…male does not touch male for this purpose(sexual gratification) as it is unnatural’

and

‘When male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is natural, but is contrary to nature(i.e. unnatural) when male unites with male or female unites with female, and those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure’

and

‘No one should sow any unholy and barren seed in sodomy’

Aesopos:

‘When Zeus created humans and their souls’ properties he ingrained them in every human being. However he left shame out. Since he didn’t know where to insert it, he commanded that it be inserted in the anus. From this day forth may every sexually inclined person who chooses this method be shameful!’

On homosexual depictions on Greek vases:

ALL depictions are of SATYRS - evil and degenerate demons.

Ancient Greek ‘scholars’ who have built up the lie that homosexuality was common place and normal in Greek society:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
John Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

ALL of them are/were homosexuals themselves! Funny that.[/quote]

This is a great post. I’ve been saying for years that homosexuality has never been accepted (certainly not in the form of marriage) in any long term successful society. This great experiment that the US and other nations are engaged in will not only not work (as homosexuals are statistically far too promiscuous) but will also harm the institution of marriage and send the wrong message to our youth. [/quote]

Pish posh, not only did I find that exact same post predominantly on stormfront.org and sites of that ilk, it is also blatant nonsense in that it substitutes our view of homosexuality with theirs, ignores historic development, takes wishful thinking like Platos as fact and is generally icky on an intellectual level.

If that is all you have,you have nothing.

[/quote]

If anyone wants actual facts about gays in ancient Greece, here’s some interesting reading on Wiki:

Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

Sacred Band of Thebes (especially interesting, since the entire troop consisted of 150 gay (pederastic) couples which formed the elite force of Thebes and played a crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra).[/quote]

You’re not happy with the facts so you choose to disregard them and make up your own. How like you!

Any retort to to the CDC’s statistic that almost 60% of all new HIV positive cases come from gay men? What a lively and carefree bunch you belong to. They don’t care if they spread HIV as long as they can have sex the wold is a happy place.

Sick.

[/quote]

See, here are the rules.

If you just got caught cruising stormfront.org or vannguard.com or some such in search of inspiration for anti gay rethoric that is blatantly uninformed if not idiotic and reply to that discovery with “I stopped respecting you when you stopped respecting my country” you really do not get to accuse someone else of “ignoring facts”.

But, if that helps, you are still American, USA, USA and so further and so on.

[/quote]

The facts are solid and all you can do is attack the source. So if the Pope says something pro Catholic it is automatically disregarded? Or do you actually need some evidence to attack what he said. Tell me, do you ever think before posting this crap? Never mind I know the answer.

You’re the very opposite of what you worship --LOGIC![/quote]

Lol…

Those “facts” are garbage.

Not only was the concept of homosexuality a different one, one that was more concerned with social status and you public “face” than the act in and of itself, it was also fairly common from the 4-5 century onward.

Athens not only erected atatues to gay lovers but also had a firm tradition of male male relationships where one partner would be from 13 to 18 years old and the other one decidedly older, which is incidentally the exact same pattern you find in their marriages.

The condescending remarks in literature are almost always against two adult males, since it was assumed that one of them was the passive part which was seen as effeminate and not fit for a full citizen.

Platos ramblings had no real effects in real life and the very fact that he wanted to revive the very sexual relationship between an older man and a teenage boy, just without the sexuality confirms that yes, this tradition very much existed.

You see, Greek and Roman morality was completely untainted by Judeo Christian values, it was a code of rules that linked shame to status and not to sexuality.

35

[quote]orion wrote:

You see, Greek and Roman morality was completely untainted by Judeo Christian values, it was a code of rules that linked shame to status and not to sexuality.

[/quote]

Homosexuality during this time period was tolerated in some places, but never accepted. It was in fact looked down on in most circles. Do your homework! Once again, you attack the facts as garbage yet singularly they are each true. But, not unlike forlife (sorry) you WANT things to be a certain way so in your mind they are.

36

I don’t know about ancient Rome or Greece, but I do know homosexuals have been responsible for the spread of AIDS the last 30 years.

37

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

You see, Greek and Roman morality was completely untainted by Judeo Christian values, it was a code of rules that linked shame to status and not to sexuality.

[/quote]

Homosexuality during this time period was tolerated in some places, but never accepted. It was in fact looked down on in most circles. Do your homework! Once again, you attack the facts as garbage yet singularly they are each true. But, not unlike forlife (sorry) you WANT things to be a certain way so in your mind they are.[/quote]

Oh contraire, it was to some degree expected.

It was a perfectly valid lifestyle, complete with cookie cutter patterns for proper homosexual relationships.

They did not care, get over it.

Now, if you could link Athenian homosexuality to their Sicilian adventures, maybe you would have something to work with?

38

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

You see, Greek and Roman morality was completely untainted by Judeo Christian values, it was a code of rules that linked shame to status and not to sexuality.

[/quote]

Homosexuality during this time period was tolerated in some places, but never accepted. It was in fact looked down on in most circles. Do your homework! Once again, you attack the facts as garbage yet singularly they are each true. But, not unlike forlife (sorry) you WANT things to be a certain way so in your mind they are.[/quote]

Oh contraire, it was to some degree expected.

It was a perfectly valid lifestyle, complete with cookie cutter patterns for proper homosexual relationships.

They did not care, get over it.

Now, if you could link Athenian homosexuality to their Sicilian adventures, maybe you would have something to work with?[/quote]

Expected? Sure in some places. Perhaps the way we expect to see two men making out on a street corner in San Fransico. But, it was in fact ALWAYS looked down on…just like two men making out on a street corner.

You should know that the greeks were into NATURE. And what was natural. They appreciated what was natural. And two men having sex was about as unnatural as…well as it is today. And far,. far less accepted than it is today.

Here you go enlighten yourself. And don’t post back to me with your general opinion and how you think things used to be without that one word that the pro homosexual folks just hate FACTS!

[quote]Laws:
July 4, 2007 â?? Orphic Hymn
Here we will post a list of laws against homosexual and pederastic relations as recorded in the text of Aeschines known as Against Timarchus.

But first lets add a little bit of info. Weâ??re in the middle of the 4th cent. BC during which the 2nd Athenean Alliance is in a great crisis due to the continuous growing power of Philip. The Atheneans, are separated into two major groups, one lead by Demosthenes and Hyperides which considers Philip nothing more than a tyrranic conqueror which will enslave and alienate the Atheneans and the rest of the Hellenes from their democratic norms and a secondlead by Isocrates, Phokion and Aeschines which see him as the great hope to finally unite the Hellenes under one leader and destroy the Barbarian threat (see Persian empire). Under the circumstances one can understand that backstabing, accusations of treason, bribery…etc were common.

In an attempt to present the agreement made by the Athenean ambassadors and Philip as void (since it desolved 2nd Athenean Alliance), Demosthenesâ?? â??groupâ?? accused Aeschines of taking bribes from Philip. Aeschinesâ?? prosecutor is Timarchus, a member of Demosthenes â??groupâ??. Aeschines, instead of trying to refute the accusations against him, takes a totally different turn and tries to totally avoid the trial by making reference to laws that existed since the time of Solon (7th cent. BC) and by doing so, literally deprived Timarchus of all his political rights.

Laws:

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 12

Hellenic Original

[Î?á¼± δὲ Ï?ῶν Ï?αίδÏ?ν διδάÏ?καλοι á¼?νοιγέÏ?Ï?Ï?αν μὲν Ï?á½° διδαÏ?καλεá¿?α μὴ Ï?Ï?á½¹Ï?εÏ?ον ἡλίοÏ? á¼?νιόνÏ?οÏ?, κλειέÏ?Ï?Ï?αν δὲ Ï?Ï?ὸ ἡλίοÏ? δύνονÏ?οÏ?. καὶ μὴ á¼?ξέÏ?Ï?Ï? Ï?οá¿?Ï? á½?Ï?á½²Ï? Ï?ὴν Ï?ῶν Ï?αίδÏ?ν ἡλικίαν οá½?Ï?ιν εἰÏ?ιέναι Ï?ῶν Ï?αίδÏ?ν á¼?νδον á½?νÏ?Ï?ν, á¼?ὰν μὴ Ï?ἱὸÏ? διδαÏ?κάλοÏ? á¼¢ á¼?δελÏ?ὸÏ? á¼¢ θÏ?γαÏ?Ï?ὸÏ? á¼?νήÏ?: á¼?ὰν δέ Ï?ιÏ? Ï?αÏ?á½° Ï?αῦÏ?á¾½ εἰÏ?á½·á¿?, θανάÏ?ῳ ζημιούÏ?θÏ?. καὶ οἱ γÏ?μναÏ?ιάÏ?Ï?αι Ï?οá¿?Ï? á¼?Ï?μαίοιÏ? μὴ εá¼?Ï?Ï?Ï?αν Ï?Ï?γκαθιέναι μηδένα Ï?ῶν á¼?ν ἡλικίᾳ Ï?Ï?á½¹Ï?ῳ μηδενί: á¼?ὰν δὲ á¼?Ï?ιÏ?Ï?á½³Ï?á¿? καὶ μὴ á¼?ξείÏ?γá¿? Ï?οῦ γÏ?μναÏ?ίοÏ?, á¼?νοÏ?οÏ? á¼?Ï?Ï?Ï? á½? γÏ?μναÏ?ιάÏ?Ï?ηÏ? Ï?á¿· Ï?á¿?Ï? á¼?λεÏ?θέÏ?Ï?ν Ï?θοÏ?ᾶÏ? νόμῳ. οἱ δὲ Ï?οÏ?ηγοὶ οἱ καθιÏ?Ï?άμενοι á½?Ï?ὸ Ï?οῦ δήμοÏ? á¼?Ï?Ï?Ï?Ï?αν Ï?ὴν ἡλικίαν á½?Ï?á½²Ï? Ï?εÏ?Ï?αÏ?άκονÏ?α á¼?Ï?η

Translation

The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter’s husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 13

Hellenic Original

á¼?άν Ï?ινα á¼?κμιÏ?θώÏ?á¿? á¼?Ï?αιÏ?εá¿?ν Ï?αÏ?á½´Ï? á¼¢ á¼?δελÏ?ὸÏ? á¼¢ θεá¿?οÏ? á¼¢ á¼?Ï?á½·Ï?Ï?οÏ?οÏ? á¼¢ á½?λÏ?Ï? Ï?ῶν κÏ?Ï?á½·Ï?ν Ï?ιÏ?, καÏ?á¾½ αá½?Ï?οῦ μὲν Ï?οῦ Ï?αιδὸÏ? οá½?κ á¼?á¾· γÏ?αÏ?ὴν εἶναι, καÏ?á½° δὲ Ï?οῦ μιÏ?θώÏ?ανÏ?οÏ? καὶ Ï?οῦ μιÏ?θÏ?Ï?αμένοÏ?, Ï?οῦ μὲν á½?Ï?ι á¼?ξεμίÏ?θÏ?Ï?ε, Ï?οῦ δὲ á½?Ï?ι, Ï?ηÏ?ίν, á¼?μιÏ?θώÏ?αÏ?ο

Translation

if any boy is let out for hire as a prostitute, whether it be by father or brother or uncle or guardian, or by any one else who has control of him, prosecution is not to he against the boy himself, but against the man who let him out for hire and the man who hired him

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 16

Hellenic Original

[á¼?ν Ï?ιÏ? á¼?θηναίÏ?ν έλεύθεÏ?ον Ï?αá¿?δα á½?βÏ?á½·Ï?á¿?, γÏ?αÏ?á½³Ï?θÏ? á½? κύÏ?ιοÏ? Ï?οῦ Ï?αιδὸÏ? Ï?Ï?ὸÏ? Ï?οὺÏ? θεÏ?μοθέÏ?αÏ?, Ï?ίμημα á¼?Ï?ιγÏ?αÏ?άμενοÏ?. οá½? δ᾽ á¼?ν Ï?ὸ δικαÏ?Ï?á½µÏ?ιον καÏ?αÏ?ηÏ?á½·Ï?ηÏ?αι, Ï?αÏ?αδοθεὶÏ? Ï?οá¿?Ï? á¼?νδεκα Ï?εθνάÏ?Ï? αá½?θημεÏ?όν. á¼?ὰν δὲ εἰÏ? á¼?Ï?γύÏ?ιον καÏ?αÏ?ηÏ?ιÏ?θá¿?, á¼?Ï?οÏ?ειÏ?á½±Ï?Ï? á¼?ν á¼?νδεκα ἡμέÏ?αιÏ? μεÏ?á½° Ï?ὴν δίκην, á¼?ὰν μὴ Ï?αÏ?αÏ?Ï?á¿?μα δύνηÏ?αι á¼?Ï?οÏ?ίνειν: á¼?Ï?Ï? δὲ Ï?οῦ á¼?Ï?οÏ?εá¿?Ï?αι εἱÏ?Ï?θήÏ?Ï?. á¼?νοÏ?οι δὲ á¼?Ï?Ï?αÏ?αν Ï?αá¿?Ï?δε Ï?αá¿?Ï? αἰÏ?ίαιÏ? καὶ οἱ εἰÏ? Ï?á½° οἰκεÏ?ικὰ Ï?ώμαÏ?α á¼?ξαμαÏ?Ï?άνονÏ?εÏ?.]

Translation

If any Athenian shall outrage a free-born child, the parent or guardian of the child shall demand a specific penalty. If the court condemn the accused to death, he shall be delivered to the constables and be put to death the same day. If he be condemned to pay a fine, and be unable to pay the fine immediately, he must pay within eleven days after the trial, and he shall remain in prison until payment is made. The same action shall hold against those who abuse the persons of slaves.

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 17

Hellenic Original

á¼´Ï?Ï?Ï? á¼?ν οá½?ν Ï?ιÏ? θαÏ?μάÏ?ειεν á¼?ξαίÏ?νηÏ? á¼?κούÏ?αÏ?, Ï?á½· δή Ï?οÏ?á¾½ á¼?ν Ï?á¿· νόμῳ Ï?á¿· Ï?á¿?Ï? á½?βÏ?εÏ?Ï? Ï?Ï?οÏ?εγÏ?á½±Ï?η Ï?οῦÏ?ο Ï?ὸ á¿¥á¿?μα, Ï?ὸ Ï?ῶν δούλÏ?ν. Ï?οῦÏ?ο δὲ á¼?ὰν Ï?κοÏ?á¿?Ï?ε, ὦ á¼?νδÏ?εÏ? á¼?θηναá¿?οι, εá½?Ï?á½µÏ?εÏ?ε á½?Ï?ι Ï?άνÏ?Ï?ν á¼?Ï?ιÏ?Ï?α á¼?Ï?ει: οá½? γὰÏ? á½?Ï?á½²Ï? Ï?ῶν οἰκεÏ?ῶν á¼?Ï?Ï?ούδαÏ?εν á½? νομοθέÏ?ηÏ?, á¼?λλὰ βοÏ?λόμενοÏ? á½?μᾶÏ? á¼?θίÏ?αι Ï?ολὺ á¼?Ï?á½³Ï?ειν Ï?á¿?Ï? Ï?ῶν á¼?λεÏ?θέÏ?Ï?ν á½?βÏ?εÏ?Ï?, Ï?Ï?οÏ?έγÏ?αÏ?ε μηδ᾽ εἰÏ? Ï?οὺÏ? δούλοÏ?Ï? á½?βÏ?ίζειν. á½?λÏ?Ï? δὲ á¼?ν δημοκÏ?αÏ?á½·á¾³ Ï?ὸν εἰÏ? á½?νÏ?ινοῦν á½?βÏ?ιÏ?Ï?ήν, Ï?οῦÏ?ον οá½?κ á¼?Ï?ιÏ?ήδειον ἡγήÏ?αÏ?ο εἶναι Ï?Ï?μÏ?ολιÏ?εύεÏ?θαι.

Translation

Now perhaps some one, on first hearing this law, may wonder for what possible reason this word â??slavesâ?? was added in the law against outrage. But if you reflect on the matter, fellow citizens, you will find this to be the best provision of all. For it was not for the slaves that the lawgiver was concerned, but he wished to accustom you to keep a long distance away from the crime of outraging free men, and so he added the prohibition against the outraging even of slaves. In a word, he was convinced that in a democracy that man is unfit for citizenship who outrages any person whatsoever.

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 21

Hellenic Original

á¼?άν Ï?ιÏ? á¼?θηναá¿?οÏ? á¼?Ï?αιÏ?á½µÏ?á¿?, μὴ á¼?ξέÏ?Ï?Ï? αá½?Ï?á¿· Ï?ῶν á¼?ννέα á¼?Ï?Ï?όνÏ?Ï?ν γενέÏ?θαι, μηδ᾽ ἱεÏ?Ï?Ï?ύνην ἱεÏ?á½½Ï?αÏ?θαι, μηδὲ Ï?Ï?νδικá¿?Ï?αι Ï?á¿· δήμῳ, μηδὲ á¼?Ï?Ï?ὴν á¼?Ï?Ï?á½³Ï?Ï? μηδεμίαν, μήÏ?ε á¼?νδημον μήÏ?ε á½?Ï?εÏ?á½¹Ï?ιον, μήÏ?ε κληÏ?Ï?Ï?ὴν μήÏ?ε Ï?ειÏ?οÏ?ονηÏ?ήν, μηδ᾽ á¼?Ï?ὶ κηÏ?Ï?κείαν á¼?Ï?οÏ?Ï?ελλέÏ?θÏ?, μηδὲ γνώμην λεγέÏ?Ï?, μηδ᾽ εἰÏ? Ï?á½° δημοÏ?ελá¿? ἱεÏ?á½° εἰÏ?á½·Ï?Ï?, μηδ᾽ á¼?ν Ï?αá¿?Ï? κοιναá¿?Ï? Ï?Ï?εÏ?ανηÏ?οÏ?ίαιÏ? Ï?Ï?εÏ?ανούÏ?θÏ?, μηδ᾽ á¼?νÏ?ὸÏ? Ï?á¿?Ï? á¼?γοÏ?ᾶÏ? Ï?ῶν Ï?εÏ?ιÏ?Ï?ανÏ?ηÏ?á½·Ï?ν Ï?οÏ?εÏ?á½³Ï?θÏ?. á¼?ὰν δέ Ï?ιÏ? Ï?αÏ?á½°1 Ï?αῦÏ?α Ï?οιá¿?, καÏ?αγνÏ?Ï?θένÏ?οÏ? αá½?Ï?οῦ á¼?Ï?αιÏ?εá¿?ν, θανάÏ?ῳ ζημιούÏ?θÏ?

Translation

If any Athenian shall have prostituted his person, he shall not be permitted to become one of the nine archons, nor to discharge the office of priest, nor to act as an advocate for the state, nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or by election; he shall not be sent as a herald; he shall not take part in debate, nor be present at public sacrifices; when the citizens are wearing garlands, he shall wear none; and he shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of prostitution act contrary to these prohibitions, he shall be put to death.

Here we must note a mistake in the translation.
While the translation speaks of â??prostituting his personâ?? the original makes no reference what so ever to â??prostitutionâ?? but clearly states á¼?Ï?αιÏ?á½µÏ?á¿? .
According to the comprehensive â??Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexiconâ?? á¼?Ï?αιÏ?á½µÏ?á¿? = unchastity.

The difference is indicated further in the text:

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 29

Hellenic Original

Ï?ηÏ?á½·, â??μὴ á¼?Ï?Ï?Ï?αÏ?εÏ?μένοÏ?, á½?Ï?αι á¼?ν αá½?Ï?á¿· Ï?Ï?οÏ?Ï?αÏ?θῶÏ?ιν, á¼¢ Ï?ὴν á¼?Ï?Ï?ίδα á¼?Ï?οβεβληκώÏ?,â?? δίκαια λέγÏ?ν. Ï?á½· δή Ï?οÏ?ε; á¼?νθÏ?Ï?Ï?ε, Ï?á¿? Ï?όλει, á½?Ï?á½²Ï? ἧÏ? Ï?á½° á½?Ï?λα μὴ Ï?ίθεÏ?αι á¼¢ διὰ δειλίαν μὴ δÏ?ναÏ?ὸÏ? εἶ á¼?Ï?αμῦναι, μηδὲ Ï?Ï?μβοÏ?λεύειν βοÏ?λεύειν á¼?ξίοÏ?. Ï?Ï?á½·Ï?ον Ï?á½·Ï?ι διαλέγεÏ?αι; â??á¼¢ Ï?εÏ?οÏ?νεÏ?μένοÏ?,â??Ï?ηÏ?ίν, â??á¼¢ ἡÏ?αιÏ?ηκώÏ?:â?? Ï?ὸν γὰÏ? Ï?ὸ Ï?ῶμα Ï?ὸ á¼?αÏ?Ï?οῦ á¼?Ï?á¾½ á½?βÏ?ει Ï?εÏ?Ï?ακόÏ?α, καὶ Ï?á½° κοινὰ Ï?á¿?Ï? Ï?όλεÏ?Ï? ῥᾳδίÏ?Ï? ἡγήÏ?αÏ?ο á¼?Ï?οδώÏ?εÏ?θαι. Ï?á½³Ï?αÏ?Ï?ον Ï?á½·Ï?ι διαλέγεÏ?αι

Translation

â??Or the man who has failed to perform all the military service demanded of him, or who has thrown away his shield.â?? And he is right. Why? Man, if you fail to take up arms in behalf of the state, or if you are such a coward that you are unable to defend her, you must not claim the right to advise her, either. Whom does he specify in the third place? â??Or the man,â?? he says, â??who has debauched or prostituted himself.â?? For the man who has made traffic of the shame of his own body, he thought would be ready to sell the common interests of the city also. But whom does he specify in the fourth place?

The use of both terms Ï?εÏ?οÏ?νεÏ?μένοÏ? (according to Liddle & Scott â??to prostitueâ?? and ἡÏ?αιÏ?ηκώÏ? ( according to Liddle & Scott = to keep company) clearly indicates that the laws did NOT apply ONLY to those that had prostituted themselves, but also to those that had formed homosexual relations.

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 46

Hellenic Original

á¼?ὰν μὲν οá½?ν á¼?θελήÏ?á¿? á½? Î?ιÏ?γόλαÏ? δεῦÏ?ο Ï?αÏ?ελθὼν Ï?á¼?ληθá¿? μαÏ?Ï?Ï?Ï?εá¿?ν, Ï?á½° δίκαια Ï?οιήÏ?ει: á¼?ὰν δὲ Ï?Ï?οαιÏ?á¿?Ï?αι á¼?κκληÏ?εÏ?θá¿?ναι μᾶλλον á¼¢ Ï?á¼?ληθá¿? μαÏ?Ï?Ï?Ï?εá¿?ν, á½?μεá¿?Ï? Ï?ὸ á½?λον Ï?Ï?ᾶγμα Ï?Ï?νίδεÏ?ε. εἰ γὰÏ? á½? μὲν Ï?Ï?άξαÏ? αἰÏ?Ï?Ï?νεá¿?Ï?αι καὶ Ï?Ï?οαιÏ?á½µÏ?εÏ?αι Ï?ιλίαÏ? μᾶλλον δÏ?αÏ?μὰÏ? á¼?Ï?οÏ?εá¿?Ï?αι Ï?á¿· δημοÏ?ίῳ, á½¥Ï?Ï?ε μὴ δεá¿?ξαι Ï?ὸ Ï?Ï?á½¹Ï?Ï?Ï?ον Ï?ὸ á¼?αÏ?Ï?οῦ á½?μá¿?ν, á½? δὲ Ï?εÏ?ονθὼÏ? δημηγοÏ?á½µÏ?ει, Ï?οÏ?ὸÏ? á½? νομοθέÏ?ηÏ? á½? Ï?οὺÏ? οá½?Ï?Ï? βδελÏ?Ï?οὺÏ? á¼?ξείÏ?γÏ?ν á¼?Ï?ὸ Ï?οῦ βήμαÏ?οÏ?.

Translation

If therefore Misgolas is willing to come forward here and testify to the truth, he will be doing what is right; but if he prefers to refuse the summons rather than testify to the truth, the whole business will be made clear to you. For if the man who did the thing is going to be ashamed of it and choose to pay a thousand drachmas into the treasury rather than show his face before you, while the man to whom it has been done is to be a speaker in your assembly, then wise indeed was the lawgiver who excluded such disgusting creatures from the platform.

We move on to Misgolas, Timarchusâ?? â??loverâ??sâ?? testimony, (who makes no reference to payment) the accounts of others and the conclusion that he not only had homosexual relations but also prosituted himself.

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 52

Hellenic Original

á¼?ὰν δ᾽ á½?μᾶÏ? á¼?ναμνήÏ?αÏ? á¼?Ï?ιδείξÏ?, á½?Ï?εÏ?βαίνÏ?ν Ï?ούÏ?δε Ï?οὺÏ? á¼?γÏ?ίοÏ?Ï?, Î?ηδÏ?νίδην καὶ Î?á½?Ï?οκλείδην καὶ Î?á½³Ï?Ï?ανδÏ?ον, αá½?Ï?οὺÏ? δὲ λέγÏ?ν ὧν á¼?ν Ï?αá¿?Ï? οἰκίαιÏ? á¼?νειλημμένοÏ? γέγονε, μὴ μόνον Ï?αÏ?á½° Ï?á¿· Î?ιÏ?γόλᾳ μεμιÏ?θαÏ?νηκόÏ?α αá½?Ï?ὸν á¼?Ï?ὶ Ï?á¿· Ï?ώμαÏ?ι, á¼?λλὰ καὶ Ï?αÏ?á¾½ á¼?Ï?á½³Ï?ῳ καὶ Ï?άλιν Ï?αÏ?á¾½ á¼?λλῷ, καὶ Ï?αÏ?á½° Ï?ούÏ?οÏ? ὡÏ? á¼?Ï?εÏ?ον á¼?ληλÏ?θόÏ?α, οá½?κέÏ?ι δήÏ?οÏ? Ï?ανεá¿?Ï?αι μόνον ἡÏ?αιÏ?ηκώÏ?, á¼?λλὰ ï¼?μὰ Ï?ὸν Î?ιόνÏ?Ï?ον οá½?κ οἶδ᾽ á½?Ï?Ï?Ï? δÏ?νήÏ?ομαι Ï?εÏ?ιÏ?λέκειν á½?λην Ï?ὴν ἡμέÏ?ανï¼? καὶ Ï?εÏ?οÏ?νεÏ?μένοÏ?: á½? γὰÏ? εἰκá¿? Ï?οῦÏ?ο καὶ Ï?Ï?ὸÏ? Ï?ολλοὺÏ? Ï?Ï?á½±Ï?Ï?Ï?ν καὶ μιÏ?θοῦ, αá½?Ï?á¿· μοι δοκεá¿? Ï?ούÏ?ῳ á¼?νοÏ?οÏ? εἶναι.

Translation

But if, saying nothing about these bestial fellows, Cedonides, Autocleides, and Thersandrus, and simply telling the names of those in whose houses he has been an inmate, I refresh your memories and show that he is guilty of selling his person not only in Misgolasâ?? house, but in the house of another man also, and again of another, and that from this last he went to still another, surely you will no longer look upon him as one who has merely been a kept man, butâ??by Dionysus, I donâ??t know how I can keep glossing the thing over all day longâ??as a common prostitute. For the man who follows these practices recklessly and with many men and for pay seems to me to be chargeable with precisely this.

While the translation â??kept manâ?? may be misleading, the definition provided by the Liddle and Scott provides little doubt to what is actually written.

Finally a quote that actually depicts what they believed about such relations:

Aeschines, Against Timarchus 185

Hellenic Original

á¼?Ï?ειθ᾽ οἱ μὲν Ï?αÏ?á½³Ï?εÏ? á½?μῶν οá½?Ï?Ï? Ï?εÏ?ὶ Ï?ῶν αἰÏ?Ï?Ï?ῶν καὶ καλῶν διεγίγνÏ?Ï?κον, á½?μεá¿?Ï? δὲ ΤίμαÏ?Ï?ον Ï?ὸν Ï?οá¿?Ï? αἰÏ?Ï?á½·Ï?Ï?οιÏ? á¼?Ï?ιÏ?ηδεύμαÏ?ιν á¼?νοÏ?ον á¼?Ï?á½µÏ?εÏ?ε; Ï?ὸν á¼?νδÏ?α μὲν καὶ á¼?Ï?Ï?ενα Ï?ὸ Ï?ῶμα, γÏ?ναικεá¿?α δὲ á¼?μαÏ?Ï?ήμαÏ?α ἡμαÏ?Ï?ηκόÏ?α; Ï?á½·Ï? οá½?ν á½?μῶν γÏ?ναá¿?κα λαβὼν á¼?δικοῦÏ?αν Ï?ιμÏ?Ï?á½µÏ?εÏ?αι; á¼¢ Ï?á½·Ï? οá½?κ á¼?Ï?αίδεÏ?Ï?οÏ? εἶναι δόξει Ï?á¿? μὲν καÏ?á½° Ï?á½»Ï?ιν á¼?μαÏ?Ï?ανούÏ?á¿? Ï?αλεÏ?αίνÏ?ν, Ï?á¿· δὲ Ï?αÏ?á½° Ï?á½»Ï?ιν á¼?αÏ?Ï?ὸν á½?βÏ?á½·Ï?ανÏ?ι Ï?Ï?μβούλῳ Ï?Ï?ώμενοÏ?;

Translation

Such, then, was the judgment of your fathers concerning things shameful and things honorable; and shall their sons let Timarchus go free, a man chargeable with the most shameful practices, a creature with the body of a man defiled with the sins of a woman? In that case, who of you will punish a woman if he finds her in wrong doing? Or what man will not be regarded as lacking intelligence who is angry with her who errs by an impulse of nature, while he treats as adviser the man who in despite of nature has sinned against his own body?[/quote]

39

[quote]orion wrote:

Lol…

Those “facts” are garbage.

Not only was the concept of homosexuality a different one, one that was more concerned with social status and you public “face” than the act in and of itself, it was also fairly common from the 4-5 century onward.

Athens not only erected atatues to gay lovers but also had a firm tradition of male male relationships where one partner would be from 13 to 18 years old and the other one decidedly older, which is incidentally the exact same pattern you find in their marriages.

The condescending remarks in literature are almost always against two adult males, since it was assumed that one of them was the passive part which was seen as effeminate and not fit for a full citizen.

Platos ramblings had no real effects in real life and the very fact that he wanted to revive the very sexual relationship between an older man and a teenage boy, just without the sexuality confirms that yes, this tradition very much existed.

You see, Greek and Roman morality was completely untainted by Judeo Christian values, it was a code of rules that linked shame to status and not to sexuality.

[/quote]

Orion, let me remind you that history is not your forte. You are regurgitating revisionist tripe here. I’ve been through all this before with someone else. It’s getting tiresome. The ‘firm tradition of male on male relationships’ you mention was not just an Athenian tradition. It was practiced in all the citystates and the relationships were non-sexual in nature.

Xenophon on the subject:

‘the relationship among Spartan man and boys ‘were opposed to’ pederasty, that man should make ‘ideal friends’ out of boys, and if the man was sexually attracted to the boy, it was considered ‘an abomination’ tantamount to incest’

Xenophon felt comfortable enough to send his sons to Sparta to be educated BTW.

Plutarch on the subject:

Plutarch also describes the relationships as chaste, and states that it was as unthinkable for a ‘lover’(Platonic love) to sexually consummate a relationship with his beloved as for a father to do so with his own son.

Key words ‘unthinkable’, ‘tantamount to incest’, ‘father and son’ etc

The sacred band of Thebes comprised the pederast couples I have been describing. It was NOT a bloody homosexual unit. And I would credit Epaminondas’s oblique order(refused flank) as more of a contributing factor to victory at Leuctra than 150 Thebens in a battle involving something like 10,000+ men on each side.

40

Okay, before I respond to any posts in here…I’m not sure if I’m supposed to take that guy seriously. I mean, zoophilia? Zoo-sexual? There is nothing right or could become right and “normal” about having sex with animals. Definitely don’t want my kids learning about that unless it’s some kind of collegiate class and they’re studying that kind of thing. There is definitely no benefit in teaching kids about “Mr. Hands”. I think that informing kids, during sex ed or a health class about different sexualities, but that’s about it. And definitely NOT elementary school kids! I think my first sex ed class was in 7th grade and that was early enough for me. Of course, the only two things I remember from that class is a kid named Kyle asking if periods and female orgasms were the same thing and my teacher telling about her son’s first erection when he was like 3 days old or something and how cute it was.