Free Ex, yes, I agree on the health aspects
of decreased insulin sensitivity. I was referring only to the body composition aspect of it.
You may also well have a point with regard to chronic effect vs. short term. Nothing in my observations is sufficient to contradict that your arguments may be correct. (I have never made an effort to study tendency to rebound after dieting as a function of supplementation used when dieting.) Just as a gestalt sort of intuitive impression, I have a feeling that results in this regard may be as you say, but I’m not sure.
Aha! I was wondering when you were gonna show up on this thread (being probably THE resident insulin sensitivity guru). I vividly remember some of your posts from 6 months to 1 yr ago on how you improved your insulin sensitivity by eliminating caffeine, thermogenics, incorporating certain supplements etc. My question pertaining to the chronic caffeine user vs the amateur caffeine user had to do with this: Are the negative effects of caffeine related to it’s stimulatory effects or by some other mechanism? Afterall, as one becomes accustomed to caffeine the stimulation received from it tends to wane so I’m just wondering if the negative effects on insulin sensitivity would tend to decrease as well. If you take me for instance who doesn’t drink a lot of caffeine and give me a 250 mg dose I’ll be wired and adrenalized a few hours for sure. But if I were to take that dose every day for 2 weeks it wouldn’t be very stimulating so I’m just wondering if the negative effects require a dosage high enough to induce a false energy surge. I definitely agree with you on the rebound effects of caffeine usage and the negative effects on body composition when coming off. It’s for this reason I limit it’s usage for the most part.
Excellent information guys - being a chronic eca/coffe guy, I, like the rest of you find this rather disturbing…It does however raise some interesting and valuable points…and FreeEx…dammit, I panicked last year when you brought up this same info…but didn’t listen…live and learn…anyway - a couple of quick questions: - 1/ Presuming a chronic caffeine user goes off, how long will it take to restore insulin sensitivity, 1,2,3 days? 2/could the affects of ala/vanadyl and other insulin mimickers be a substantial ‘crutch’ to allow the continued consumption of caffeine? 3/as a middle ground - presuming that we only ingest our thermogenics on a p+f meal(s) will 3-6 hours be enough time for clearance - and allow insulin sensitivity to be restored…or is ANY ingestion in 24 hours too much? I can absolutely see the value of caffeine on a ketogenic diet, as I have lost substantial body fat on such protocols, however, the issue of caffeine with p+c meals raises my suspicions, as I have had a much harder time losing fat when transitioning to a more ‘massive eating’ or 40-30-30 approach, while still maintaining a substantial amount of caffeine/thermogenics intake.
As I mentioned, I am not dieting (bulking or cutting) so I have not been keeping track. I will tell you that I eat lots of white rice, pizza, artisan style breads, bagels, potatoes, pasta, and I regurlay hit the desert station at work. I think that it safe to say that I ingest a large amount of high GI carbs. And when I say that I drink tons of coffee, I am taliking about 40-60 ounces a day. I think that it is an individual, thing. I am not saying that it does not have an effect, but that amoungst certain individuals it is mild at best. On the other hand, since it does not seem to affect Patricia negatively, I am wondering if the body develops a tolerance to it. Some people are hyper sensitive to caffeine, and will get the shakes after one cup, others, like me, drink tons of it and still feel the need for a nap.
I don’t know that there is any set length
of time as to how long it would take to
recover insulin sensitivity. I imagine this
would involve several factors, and would
vary from individual to individual. Regarding
offestting the negative effects of caffeine
with supplements, I can’t really say for sure,
as there aren’t any studies on that that I’m
aware of. Certainly taking ALA, chromium,
fish oil, vanadyl, glucosol, d-pinitol,
metformin etc. may be able to largely offset
the negative effect. But I suspect
(speculation) the only way you can fully
avoid the negative effect is to not consume
caffeine. If you consume caffeine with a P+F
meal, it’s not clear how long it would take
for insulin sensitivity to recover. Again, no
studies have been done. JB speculates that
it would be at least the half life of caffeine
(5 hours). I suspect that the time to full
recovery of insulin sensitivity after accute
ingestion is between 12 and 24 hours; and
that the time for full recovery after chronic
ingestion could take at least several days,
if not longer (depending on diet, supplements and training).
To Kelly:
As to whether the negative effect of caffeine is due to the "stimulatory" effect -
that depends on what you mean by "stimulatory". I don't mean to sound all Bill
Clintonish here, but how you define that makes a difference. If you mean the subjective "wired" effect that caffeine gives you at first, then no. But that "wired" effect that caffeine gives you is not representative of the physiological effect. Caffeine still continues to produce the same physiological effect, even after you've adapted to the subjective experience of it. To try to
answer what you're getting at: no I don't
think the loss of insulin sensitivity from
caffeine will decrease with prolonged use.
In fact, I suspect the negative effect
might even be cumulative. For example, if
you took two groups, the first group
consisting of people who had only used caffeine for say, two weeks and then were off
caffeine for one week before an OGTT. The second group consisting of people who had used caffeine for say, two years and then were off caffeine for one week prior to an OGTT. And let's just hypothetically say that they were all trained individuals who ate healthy diets, to avoid any confounding variables. Then
give them both OGTT and measure both blood
glucose and insulin in both groups. I suspect you'll find the second group to have a worse mean insulin sensitivity. I think that answers
your question.
The studies cited in the articles above
have been duplicated in other studies. There
were some studies on Medline covering this,
but I can't find them at the moment. If you do
search for "caffeine" + "arteries" on Medline
on on the web, I'm sure you'll find a bunch
more references.
I’ve used EC many times in the past and i am currently using T2 with a 14 day fat fast. I’m a little confused with what everybody’s saying.
my question is this...i have some coffee in my cupboard and i was wondering if it would help me out with my diet (fat fast). should i drink it? and if it could help, is there a certain amount i should have a day? I hope you guys can answer me back...thanks.
OK, so since I’m about to start a dieting phase this week, here are my initial thermogenic/cutting supplement ideas: ephedrine (25mg, 3 times/day, before meals), ALA (200 mg, 3 times/day, before meals), omega-3 fish oils (total of 6 grams/day of EPA plus DHA), T2-Pro, and guggulbolic (?). Any thoughts/suggestions? Thanks.
Free Ex, I am glad you mentioned the possible adverse effects of caffeine on cardio-vascular disease, I have seen studies showing both filtered and unfiltered coffee can raise homocysteine levels, an important predictor of CVD risk.
Do you have any references handy on the research with diabetics that showed increased insulin sensitivity in fat cells, and vice versa in muscle cells? I would be most interested in having a look at this.
Cheers.
Regarding your question, I'm not quite
clear on what you're asking me, so let me see
if I've got it: you want to know if I have any
studies that show that type 2 diabetics have
increased insulin sensitivity in fat but a
decreased insulin sensitivity in muscle? Is
that right? If that's what you're asking, then
no. In the literature I've seen, what happens
in type 2 diabetics is that progression is
that muscle cells will lose insulin
sensitivity first, and then fat cells lose
insulin sensitivity later. Type 2 diabetics
don't have an increase in insulin sensitivity
at all. But there are several studies that
show when type 2 diabetics go on certain types
of drug therapy (specifically the
glitazones/TZD drugs like pioglitazone) the drug causes a re-upregulation of insulin sensitivity, but that this occurs first in fat cells, and later in muscle cells. Paradoxically, people who go on pioglitazone
therapy get healthier in terms of blood
glucose, blood insulin and cardiovascular
risk factors, but they also get fatter. Go
figure.
FreeEx- thanks for the great info, your input is always invaluable - it looks like continued, chronic caffeine use is out the window for us folks - is anyone a ‘recovering’ caffeine addict? I’d be lying to you if I said I wasn’t a bit perplexed to take the plunge due to the potential drop off in work and workout productivity - though I will still probably keep the md-6 preworkout dosage the same. I will begin ‘tapering’ off the stuff this week - anyone else joining me?
Recovering caffeine addict here. I do nothing in moderation, so if I drink any, I was swallowing 2 ltrs with ease. So there is no, ‘cut down’ on it for me. I’m simply not drinking any. The next few weeks should be fun, coupled with a keto diet.
Green Tea and 7-keto. A 7-keto containing product that I have heard good reviews on is Lean System 7 by Isatori…the product also contains forskolin and some other indgredients to amplify it’s effects. T2 is always a good choice when going on a severe diet.
Elzi Volke touched on this briefly over at MFW. And she stated it basically becomes a non-issue in regards to body composition due to increased lypolisis. Here is what she had to say:
"As usual, one or two science reports are misconstrued as they trickle
down the media line.
Caffeine-induced impairment of glucose tolerance is abolished by
b-adrenergic receptor blockade in humans. Farah S. L. T. and T. E.
Graham. J Appl Physiol 92: 2347-2352, 2002.
Just read the paper a few weeks ago and it confirmed my suspicions:
that the transient caffeine-induced decrease in glucose
tolerance/clearance is caused by our old friends: epinephrine and the
beta-AR, not adenosine receptor antagonism.
To make a long story (6 pages) short, male over-night fasted subjects
were given a placebo, 5 mg/kg caffeine, 80 mg of propanolol (a beta-AR
blocker), or same amounts of caffeine and propanolol together. After
90 minutes, an oral glucose tolerance test was administered (ingestion
of 75 g glucose). Blood samples were taken at various times post-OGTT.
OGTT increased blood glucose in all groups (no difference between
treatments). Caffeine ingestion increased insulin levels by 42% and
reduced whole body insulin sensitivity index by 25%. The major site of
net reduction of glucose was in skeletal muscle. When caffeine was
administered with propanolol (C+P), the increased insulin response was
no different than the placebo and propanolol only. Epinephrine levels
were increased in the caffeine only and C+P groups. Free fatty acids
and glycerol levels were increased as well in caffeine only group
(indicative of increased lipolysis). These changes were absent in C+P.
Mechanisms: increased epinephrine levels and the subsequent inhibition
of insulin-stimulated glucose uptake in skeletal muscle. This
cross-talk between the b-ARs and insulin in muscle is well known.
Another additive effect may possibly be elevated epi levels enhancing
B-cell responsiveness to glucose and transiently increasing heptatic
glucose production, with insulin response trying to compensate for
increased glucose level.
However, note that lipolysis was also increased.
So the balance of the universe is again maintained.
That conclusion both overly simplifies the
situation, and is misleading when applied to
long term caffeine consumption. Here is why:
long term caffeine consumption will continue
to degrade insulin sensitivity. But over time the amount of lipolysis that caffeine provides
decreases, thus leading to an inbalance (eleveated) of blood glucose. As usual, there
is a difference between a one time or short
term use, and long term use. And if you’ll
read my other comments on this topic I have
said as much.