T Nation

Caffeine Causes Catabolism?


#1

How much of this is fact or fiction?

This is taken from a site I won't name because they sell supplements:

Morning:
You just slept 8 hours (well most of you), thus you wake up catabolic. AHHHHHH! The
first thing you want to do is drink water. Hydrate the body. If you want to stay lean
and hard you want to make breakfast your biggest meal. I work 8 hours a day. I like
to talk reality. I don't talk like you don't have a job and all you do is sit home all day.
Thus make breakfast your biggest meal because youâ??re about to put the body through
some stress.

Everyone knows how to eat good. So whatever to that. But if you don't eat good make
yourself a good blender shake with fruit in it and some low G.I. carbs. Add some
dietary fat too.
Here is what your breakfast BLENDER shake should look like. You can also find a ton of
recipes on the internet. Just Google â??Whey Protein Shake Recipesâ??.
Put This in A Blender:
1. 16oz. of milk
Better: Lactaid milk (lactose free milk)
2. 1/3 cup of protein powder.
Better: Protein blend of whey, casein, and egg white
What not to use: Whey protein concentrate. Too much lactose and youâ??ll be farting
on your co-workers all day long, no one wants that?
3. 1 fruit of choice
Better: I like fruits with lots of anti-oxidants.
Blueberries and strawberries rock!
4. 1/3 cup of Oats.
Better: Blend of powdered natural carbohydrates
What not to use: (unless you want to get fat) maltodextrin, fructose, dextrose, waxy
maize, and glucose.
5. 2 tbs of flax oil
Better: A blend of dietary fat oils
What not to use. Fish Oil capsules. These capsules give you a max of 1 gram per
capsule. Youâ??d have to swallow at least 14 in a serving.

Supplements To Take:
1) CLA gel capsules. Take 1 with each meal. Only use Tonalin or Clarinol
2) Krill Oil. Unbelievable high quality dietary fat
3) Testosterone supplement. (Iâ??ll give you some that I like alot)
What testosterone supplements NOT to use:
1) Prohormones. Dangerous products, all made in China, and all illegal sold by
supplement companies trying to profit off playing russian roulette with your health.
2) ZMA. complete garbage with its claim that it can raise testosterone.
3) Boron. Again completely worthless to boost test.
4) D-aspartic acid. They thought this product would work, but it doesnt.

Pre workout:
The worst trend to hit the bodybuilding supplement scene is the preworkout powders
containing stimulants. Why you would want to put your body into a catabolic state is
beyond me.

Caffeine also dehydrates you. Why would you want to dehydrate yourself
while working out?
For pre workout I suggest one thing, WATER. Your body will love you for it.

On a side note, just because I like to make my competition look like fools because they
claim to be so cutting edge and great. The first pre workout powder was called
â??Ultimate Orangeâ?? and was invented by Dan Duchaine, the greatest supplement guru
ever to live. But he was at least smart enough to add carbs and hydrolyzed whey
protein into the ephedra containing drink. 15 years or so later the pre workout drink
was reborn, but this time containing no protein and carbs, just DMAA (an illegal
substance) with flavoring.

Here is an advertisement from about 15 years ago for Ultimate Orange, the original pre
workout powder.
Intra Workout:
Nothing is needed during your workout either but water. You could if you wanted drink
a carb drink. But really if you are bodybuidling then your workout shouldn't take more
than 45 minutes. If you can go longer than 45 minutes than you are not really training
hard.

What not to use: amino acids. I see a lot of people swallowing amino acids pills or
powders preworkout. This does absolutely nothing to bring your body out of a catabolic
state. If anything your body converts the aminos to glycogen to give it more energy.

Post Workout:
If someone asked me when should I use this protein powder, the first thing I would say
to him is, â??Post workout definitelyâ??. The body is craving nutrients post workout. Four
things: carbs, protein, anti-oxidants, and electrolytes. This is what the body wants and
needs for recovery. Believe it or not chocolate milk has these four things. And if you
talk to university athletic directors and trainers they will tell you that they recommend
their athletes drink chocolate milk post training. However you can get yourself more
more POWERFUL...haha! had to throw that in....products. Here they are.

Carbs: Anything natural. fruit, such a banana.

â?¢ What not to use. Anything un-natural. I consider dextrose, maltodextrin, waxy
maize, and fructose all un-natural. They are such crap, cheap by-products of the
corn industry. All they do is make you fat.

Protein: Hydrolyzed Protein combined with other protein sources. Make sure you
know the molecular weight of the hydrolyzed protein and then combine with egg whites
and milk proteins.

Anti-oxidants: Fresh fruit or supplements
â?¢ What not to use: Anything with caffeine or any stimulants. We are trying to
avoid catabolism.
Night time supplementation:
Right before you go to bed its a good idea to swig down some protein. Mainly in the
form of milk protein isolate blended with whey and egg white. Add about 2 tbs of flax
oil and more testosterone supplements and you are good to go.

We loaded your body up with potential
anabolic substances and try to avoid catabolic substances.
Other tips to avoid catabolism
â?¢ Avoid all form of caffeine
â?¢ Avoid all forms of soy including soy lecithin
â?¢ Avoid pain killers like aspirin, ibuprofin, etc.
â?¢ Avoid stevia. I have seen studies where stevia could increase estrogen
â?¢ As said before, do your best to avoid mental stress
Listen to this routine, print it, post it!
It is real. It will work.
Your Friend,
(and fellow muscle builder)
Alex Rogers


1- Can caffeine cause catabolism?
2- Is Maltodextrin/dextrose/waxy maize bad for you and really make you fat?
3- Do you really need to take 14 fish oil pills for one serving? (I take 2 with each meal x6 times a day)
4- Are Aminos useless pre workout?
5- Is soy lecithin that bad for you? (it's in alot of products)
6- Does stevia increase estrogen?

Does anybody have any info to back up or deny these claims? Please HELP! I realize this guys trying to sell products, but I would like to know if he's preaching the truth or not?


#2

John Keifer advocates pushing your first meal back into the mid-morning to early afternoon and using coffee to keep fat loss rolling. He explains the reasoning for this strategy in Carb Back Loading and its pretty convincing. Keifer also contends that you are most insulin sensitive in the morning so its the worst time to eat carbs. Keifer also recommends dextrose, maltodextrin, and waxy maize post workout to spike insulin and then clear out, because that’s when your body won’t turn carbs into fat. Again, he explains his reasoning in the book and it makes sense to me and so far I’ve had good results backloading.


#3

Thanks for the post. I’m confused…I thought insulin sensitivity was a good thing? Wouldn’t it be best in the morning when you’re most sensitive and bad when your less? Science is not my thing. I use a mix of maltodextrin and dextrose post workout. I have gotten a little softer than I’d like in my midsection. But I also have slowly (though not intentionally) increasing my carbs over the past 3 months. Figured I need a little recomp. I just got finished reading “why we get fat” by Gary Taubes. Was planning on scaling my carbs back alot. Just bought some stevia for my coffee, which I drink 2-3 cups a day. So I’m wondering if what this guys wrote has any validity.


#4

I like Keifer’s stuff, but I’m no expert, and there’s more than one way to skin a cat. If I were you, I’d also look into John Berardi and Shelby Starnes. Between the three, I don’t think you can go too far wrong with diet advice.

For what its worth, I cut 50 pounds or so of fat from March to about mid July using mostly what i know now is consistent with Keifer’s Carb Night Solution. Basically ultra low carbs, high fat, medium protein, except one night a week absolutely blow out the carbs after training. Now I’m in maintenance and I avoid carbs most of the day, and then blow them out every night after I train, with ultra low carbs on non-training days. So far so good, and my lifts are going up without piling on the fat.


#5

Sounds like it’s working for you. What do you do for post workout(carb wise)? Or do you workout at night?


#6

Alex Rogers owns Protein Factory. His article is basically in alignment with the products he sells.

Notice he doesn’t sell any kind of caffeine products, hates waxy maize (but pimps many other carb supps), says zma and daa are worthless, etc.

I think as a general article or write up its ok, but doesn’t necessarily hold truth.

1). no
2). no, but they should be used appropriately
3). i take 4 a day and get 3g total EPA/DHA (pick the right brand)
4). no
5). its an instantizer, which is why its in a lot of protein powders
6). never heard that before

Did he post any sources for his bold statements?


#7

it’s impossible to train fasted first thing in the morning without caffeine


#8

[quote]gabex wrote:

1). no
2). no, but they should be used appropriately
3). i take 4 a day and get 3g total EPA/DHA (pick the right brand)
4). no
5). its an instantizer, which is why its in a lot of protein powders
6). never heard that before

Did he post any sources for his bold statements?[/quote]

Thanks for posting. Of course he doesn’t link any sources to his statements. The caffeine causing catabolism was what threw me. I never heard that and mostly everybody recommends caffeine pre workout(I know there’s plenty peeps that don’t use it or like it). But the stevia statement pissed me off because I just bought some the other day. Was wondering if anyone ever heard that. I mean if you’re on a low/no carb diet, what is the best artificial sweetner (health wise)?


#9
  1. No caffeine will not put you in a catabolic state. What you use the caffeine for may not take you out of a catabolic state. Notice the difference. If you wake up in the morning in a catabolic state and hungry, but instead of giving your body more food ingest caffeine then you will have energy but should be in a catabolic state. People do this when they are trying to lose weight, catabolism can apply to fat too, and it’s likely the protein catabolism is minimal.

  2. Yes if you take in too much. Enough to sweeten your shake shouldn’t hurt you unless you are trying to do an exteme cut

  3. NO. I take fish oil and I don’t even think it should be the requirement everybody says. It thins the blood a lot, can drastically increase bruising. People hear a new supplement and every guru swears you need to take it. If you have joint pain sure, you eat no fish, nuts and omega-3 containing food then yes.

  4. I doubt it, I think it probably helps. If you’re at the top and need any little edge you can find to win then yes. Otherwise if you can do it then why not.

  5. Haven’t decided, have been researching that one for quite some time now

  6. Supposedly everything is estrogenic. The less sweeteners you use the less you need for your taste buds. When it gets low enough then you can just use regular sugar and it won’t really matter. I find that better then all this alternative stuff. Either way I doubt normal consumption causes the estrogen amounts of whatever studies he used to backup his claim.


#10

Thanks Air…I appreciate all the imput. The whole estrogenic craze has got me in a panic that I’m gonna wake up one day with gyno…lol Just trying to put on as much muscle as possible with minimal fat as I go. All the hype just adds to my confusion.


#11

[quote]Bmad wrote:
Thanks for the post. I’m confused…I thought insulin sensitivity was a good thing? Wouldn’t it be best in the morning when you’re most sensitive and bad when your less? Science is not my thing. I use a mix of maltodextrin and dextrose post workout. I have gotten a little softer than I’d like in my midsection. But I also have slowly (though not intentionally) increasing my carbs over the past 3 months. Figured I need a little recomp. I just got finished reading “why we get fat” by Gary Taubes. Was planning on scaling my carbs back alot. Just bought some stevia for my coffee, which I drink 2-3 cups a day. So I’m wondering if what this guys wrote has any validity.[/quote]

Insulin Sensitivity is good in MUSCLE cells, not fat cells. The problem is insulin sensitivity is increased in both muscle and fat cells in the morning increasing the odds of fatty acid and protein synthesis.

Keifer’s recommendations of caffeine before your workouts is because it blunts insulin sensitivity in both muscle cells and fat cells. But, insulin sensitivity is irrelevant in muscle cells during activity because there are non insulin mediated glucose transporters that will take in sugar.

As far as caffeine being catabolic, I guess the only thing I could see is that caffeine can increase cortisol in certain instances which is an inherently catabolic hormone.


#12

Jeez, lifting weights is catabolic. You are thinking about this stuff too much. If you want to do carb back loading(or any other nutrition plan out there)do it. Give it 6 weeks and see if you like it or not. If it sucks, try something else. There is a reason/study/idea/fuck given/etc that says everything is bad or good, just try things out for yourself. You aren’t going to do any damage that can’t be undone.


#13

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
it’s impossible to train fasted first thing in the morning without caffeine[/quote]

Amen!


#14

â?¢ Avoid all form of caffeine
4 cups of coffe a day + PWO

â?¢ Avoid all forms of soy including soy lecithin
200g soy protein a day

â?¢ Avoid pain killers like aspirin, ibuprofin, etc.

â?¢ Avoid stevia. I have seen studies where stevia could increase estrogen
10-12 servings a day

afk growing vag


#15

I realize this is an old thread, but just in case others have similar questions:

  1. Yes. Caffeine has a mild testosterone boosting quality, but it’s cortisol boosting is stronger, making it mildly catabolic. See this study:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18458357
  2. Two camps on this. One advocates natural carbs, like Alex Rogers, Tony Horton, and the late Jack LaLanne. The other prefers dextrose (glucose), as it rapidly restores lost glycogen faster than fructose, which has to be converted to glucose. Both sides seem to eschew waxy maize.
  3. Depends on the per capsule dose. Daily intake should be 3-5 grams, as per Dr. Brett Osbourn.
  4. Yes and no. Beneficial when on a calorie-restricted diet, and attenuates muscle fatigue during endurance exercise. During bodybuilding, there’s no real evidence that they improve muscle gain, particularly if you’re consuming adequate protein. See here:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25566428
  5. Soy in general is bad. It’s an incomplete protein (lacks l-methionine), blocks absorption of several key vitamins and minerals, and a study from McMasters University found that soy protein builds muscle slightly better than water, as the amino acids-particularly leucine- are used for oxidation instead of muscle synthesis. Soy lecithin isn’t a protein, but a waste product. It’s the sludge left over after the soybeans are soaked in hexane. Avoid.
  6. The stevia/estrogen link is found mostly on alternative health sites. The studies they refer to regarding mutagenic and estrogenic properties of stevia should be approached with caution as they: Are a minority of studies, involve one compound, stevioside, at extremely high concentrations, and are female rat studies.