T Nation

Bye Bye Pervez

[quote]pat wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat wrote:
Who would they use them against and not expect a full retaliatory strike…?

A hated country that does not have nukes.

or allies, which would be???[/quote]

Who ever Allah (PEACE BE UPON HIM) tells them too?

[quote]pat wrote:
Or exterminating non-believers like in Sudan. [/quote]

Sudan is still ruled by a legacy of Nimeiri’s religious laws, but the ongoing conflict in Darfur (if that is what you have in mind), is not religious in nature. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a dolt.

The Pakistani constitution, at least, guarantees equal status for all religions. In practice, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs and other minorities enjoy more involvement in crucial sectors such as health, education, economics, etc.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Who ever Allah (PEACE BE UPON HIM) tells them too?[/quote]

Allah is Arabic for God. “Peace be upon him” is an tentative translation of “sala’llahou 'alayhi wassallam”, which is a customary prayer to the memory of dead prophets (all prophets of Monotheism, not just Mohammed). It’s sort of an elaborate RIP.

Invoking God to bless Himself makes no sense.

But I agree with the sentiment of your post. People who claim to do God’s work are scary to say the least.

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Or exterminating non-believers like in Sudan.

Sudan is still ruled by a legacy of Nimeiri’s religious laws, but the ongoing conflict in Darfur (if that is what you have in mind), is not religious in nature. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a dolt.
[/quote]
Oh brother.

[quote]
The Pakistani constitution, at least, guarantees equal status for all religions. In practice, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs and other minorities enjoy more involvement in crucial sectors such as health, education, economics, etc.[/quote]

And I am sure that will last!

This one’s a hoot. So it’s not Muslims killing Christians and animists?

[quote]lixy wrote:
People who claim to do God’s work are scary to say the least.[/quote]

This is completely off topic but I have always found it fascinating that we consider some who claim to talk to god legitimate and others crazy.

Isn’t it amazing how people will give more legitimacy to those in history whom they have no real way of knowing than they do to their contemporaries?

Just to be clear, I am skeptical of anyone who claims god talks to them. I do like a good mythological story though.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Sudan is still ruled by a legacy of Nimeiri’s religious laws, but the ongoing conflict in Darfur (if that is what you have in mind), is not religious in nature. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a dolt.

This one’s a hoot. So it’s not Muslims killing Christians and animists? [/quote]

No, they are freedom fighters! Get your terminology strait. And they are killing most non-arabs even though they are so intermingled they all look the same…Let’s not forget the little girl rapings and stuff, those sluts! It pays to be a jinjaweed soldier.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
lixy wrote:
People who claim to do God’s work are scary to say the least.

This is completely off topic but I have always found it fascinating that we consider some who claim to talk to god legitimate and others crazy.

Isn’t it amazing how people will give more legitimacy to those in history whom they have no real way of knowing than they do to their contemporaries?

Just to be clear, I am skeptical of anyone who claims god talks to them. I do like a good mythological story though.[/quote]

There’s this bit about miracles which you don’t take into account in your amazement and fascination.

[quote]lixy wrote:
There’s this bit about miracles which you don’t take into account in your amazement and fascination.[/quote]

hmmm…I am skeptical of miracles too.

[quote]lixy wrote:
There’s this bit about miracles which you don’t take into account in your amazement and fascination.[/quote]

If you have a picture or some video of the angel Gabriel, or even of that flying horse, now would be a good time to produce it.

No?

Miracles by hearsay are not convincing.

[quote]pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
There’s this bit about miracles which you don’t take into account in your amazement and fascination.

If you have a picture or some video of the angel Gabriel, or even of that flying horse, now would be a good time to produce it.

No?

Miracles by hearsay are not convincing.
[/quote]

Hobbes’ argument was that miracles are often the product of deception, people differed in what they believed to be a miracle, and that a report of a miracle is not identical to the miracle itself; by believing it you place faith not in miracles, but in the testimony of men.

So, pretty much what you said, but I wanted to say something about Hobbes.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
There’s this bit about miracles which you don’t take into account in your amazement and fascination.

If you have a picture or some video of the angel Gabriel, or even of that flying horse, now would be a good time to produce it.

No?

Miracles by hearsay are not convincing.

Hobbes’ argument was that miracles are often the product of deception, people differed in what they believed to be a miracle, and that a report of a miracle is not identical to the miracle itself; by believing it you place faith not in miracles, but in the testimony of men.

So, pretty much what you said, but I wanted to say something about Hobbes.[/quote]

I recently saw a British documentary titled “End of the World Cult”. The film is a great demonstration of just how easy it is to manipulate people into believing ridiculous things.

The cult leader is a creepy old guy who is possibly a pedophile, and he claims to be the Messiah.

I can guarantee that if the members of his church decided to collaborate together and write a text on his prophecy, the text would include eye witness accounts of miracles. This is despite the fact that to an outside observer it is comically obvious that the guy is a fraud. Most of his followers don’t seem to be of particularly low intelligence either, so their willingness to believe his bullshit can’t be explained by that.

Anyway, my point is that Hobbes’ argument makes a lot of sense. I am not willing to blindly trust the testimony of men who claim to have witnessed miracles.

Edit - For anyone interested in seeing the documentary, type “End of the World Cult” into youtube. It’s quite sickening.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I can guarantee that if the members of his church decided to collaborate together and write a text on his prophecy, the text would include eye witness accounts of miracles. This is despite the fact that to an outside observer it is comically obvious that the guy is a fraud. Most of his followers don’t seem to be of particularly low intelligence either, so their willingness to believe his bullshit can’t be explained by that.
[/quote]

He actually raises this point! In six minutes I am out for the next two days… but when I come back, I will try to post the section of Leviathan where he discusses exactly that.

[quote]lixy wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Who ever Allah (PEACE BE UPON HIM) tells them too?

Allah is Arabic for God. “Peace be upon him” is an tentative translation of “sala’llahou 'alayhi wassallam”, which is a customary prayer to the memory of dead prophets (all prophets of Monotheism, not just Mohammed). It’s sort of an elaborate RIP.

Invoking God to bless Himself makes no sense.

But I agree with the sentiment of your post. People who claim to do God’s work are scary to say the least.[/quote]

How do you tell him to fuck himself?

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Hobbes’ argument was that miracles are often the product of deception, people differed in what they believed to be a miracle, and that a report of a miracle is not identical to the miracle itself; by believing it you place faith not in miracles, but in the testimony of men.

So, pretty much what you said, but I wanted to say something about Hobbes.[/quote]

Poor Hobbes, he hasn’t been the same since he met Calvin.

[quote]pookie wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Hobbes’ argument was that miracles are often the product of deception, people differed in what they believed to be a miracle, and that a report of a miracle is not identical to the miracle itself; by believing it you place faith not in miracles, but in the testimony of men.

So, pretty much what you said, but I wanted to say something about Hobbes.

Poor Hobbes, he hasn’t been the same since he met Calvin.
[/quote]

He’s a bad influence.

[quote]NateOrade wrote:
pookie wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Hobbes’ argument was that miracles are often the product of deception, people differed in what they believed to be a miracle, and that a report of a miracle is not identical to the miracle itself; by believing it you place faith not in miracles, but in the testimony of men.

So, pretty much what you said, but I wanted to say something about Hobbes.

Poor Hobbes, he hasn’t been the same since he met Calvin.

He’s a bad influence.[/quote]

Oh, most excellent. Love that image.

As I predicted in the beginning of the thread, the People’s Party is now in power.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7575958.stm

And the party broke up.

damn!

How long before they start shooting at each other like in Gaza?