Bush's Coherent World View

Sure, making nukes is difficult and expensive, but what happened to all those nukes sold off by the Soviet Union? And how many of those terrorist organizations are actually funded by states in some way, as opposed to turning a blind eye? (note I actually don’t know, so inform me)

If Bush’s intentions follow his words, super. But this would signal some sort of change. As far as I remember, he never made such statements before, and his actions never followed this new line of reasoning. And common, those cartoons of Bush are histerical. Anyone remember “That’s my Bush!”? Comic Genius.

Mr. Non Sequitur (aka Limbic)

Once again: FOCUS! Keep your eyes on the discussion here. Take your medicine, stop smoking left-handed cigarettes, and bear down.

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[quote]vroom wrote:
You know what pisses me off? Every time the president or administration comes around and recognizes something one of us has said here, in criticism, nobody recognizes it.

I don’t know how many times I’ve gotten bashed for trying to look into “reasons”. Of course, now that the president might be heading down this path, it’s obviously the right thing to do, right?

Assholes.[/quote]

I sentence you to a lifetime in…

CANADA!

Of course, part of the world view is the exploitation of resources… which is something we often argue back and forth about. However, the results of the following survey are troubling!

Of course, we can disagree on priorities, on whether or not various aspects of a environmentalism and conservation are appropriate, but pressuring people to go against their own professional judgement is stupid.

This goes along with Bush and his administration and his worldview. They keep applying pressure at all levels to support their own preconceived notions. I don’t see how anyone can miss the “management” style employed by these clowns – this is driven top-down y’know.

Again, I’m not complaining about the fact that people have different priorities, but the lengths to which the government is going to find opinions in support of their policies, be it environment, greenhouse gases, education or whatnot.

Very true there are nukes that are unaccounted for and out in the world. But I am not familiar with how they operate or what mechanisms are used to turn them on and off. I highly doubt that there is a timer and you just type in a passcode like in the movies.

I remember the orginal A-bombs were armed by a certain elevation.

But a more apropos question would be… If they could work them… And as you say (and I agree) they have them… Why havn’t they used them?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Of course, we can disagree on priorities, on whether or not various aspects of a environmentalism and conservation are appropriate, but pressuring people to go against their own professional judgement is stupid.

This goes along with Bush and his administration and his worldview. They keep applying pressure at all levels to support their own preconceived notions. I don’t see how anyone can miss the “management” style employed by these clowns – this is driven top-down y’know.

Again, I’m not complaining about the fact that people have different priorities, but the lengths to which the government is going to find opinions in support of their policies, be it environment, greenhouse gases, education or whatnot.[/quote]

First off - it’s the LA Times. A grain of salt has to be taken when using any of their reports as they don’t exactly have the best track record when it comes to accurate reporting.

Secondly - a 30% response? Hardly enoughv ‘proof’ to make a claim - especially if any of those 30% are politially motivated.

Maybe it’s greek to those on the left and the interested parties up north, but when you govern from principles rather than public opinion, you will butt heads, and appear to be “applying pressure at all levels to support their own preconceived notions”.

I’ll take what we have now over what we had from 1992 - 2000 any day - even if it pisses off the Euro-Centric appeasement crowd. And that’s who we’re really talking about here, isn’t it? Those who believe that what Europe thinks is vital to our existenece?

Yeah, I hate it when scientists are politically pressured.

Illarionov Criticizes Censorship Bias at Climatic Conference

LONDON, February 2 (RIA Novosti's Alexander Smotrov) - Presidential economic aide Andrei Illarionov criticizes the policy of censorship practiced at the British Climate Change Conference.

The scientific conference of G8 experts is held in Exeter in the south of Britain on February 1 through 3.

"Its organizers have not accepted reports from many participants whose views are different from that of the organizers,'" Mr. Illarionov told RIA Novosti in the interview.

Asked by the RIA Novosti correspondent why his name is not in the list of speakers, Mr. Illarionov said: "Making a report here is impossible because organizers practice a policy of censorship against people having different points of view."

Mr. Illarionov is against the Kyoto Protocol, which intends the cutting of greenhouse gas emissions.

He draws a parallel between the refusal of organizers of the British conference to allow a number of reports to be made to the similar situation prevailing on eve of the World Economic Forum in Switzerland. "The situation is the same here as well as in Davos and in the organization called the IPCC (Interparliamentary Panel on Climate Change)," the presidential economic aide said.

Last week he refused to participate in the Davos forum because he was not allowed to speak up at the sessions on climate change...

-From the Russian News and Information Agency Novosti, February 2, 2005

[quote]vroom wrote:
Of course, part of the world view is the exploitation of resources… which is something we often argue back and forth about. However, the results of the following survey are troubling!

Of course, we can disagree on priorities, on whether or not various aspects of a environmentalism and conservation are appropriate, but pressuring people to go against their own professional judgement is stupid.

This goes along with Bush and his administration and his worldview. They keep applying pressure at all levels to support their own preconceived notions. I don’t see how anyone can miss the “management” style employed by these clowns – this is driven top-down y’know.

Again, I’m not complaining about the fact that people have different priorities, but the lengths to which the government is going to find opinions in support of their policies, be it environment, greenhouse gases, education or whatnot.[/quote]

Now, let’s take a look at that article in the LA Times.

“More than half of the biologists and other researchers who responded to the survey said they knew of cases in which commercial interests, including timber, grazing, development and energy companies, had applied political pressure to reverse scientific conclusions deemed harmful to their business.”

What the hell does that mean anyway? They “knew of cases”? That’s a little different than someone saying “I was pressured by so-and-so.”

Not only that, but it only says pressure was applied by commerical interests. It does not say pressure was applied by higher-ups in the department, and it does not say that conclusions were changed. No, it says they “knew of cases” in which pressure was applied. What kind of methodology asks for such second-hand gobbledy gook?

Not to mention that the number of those who “know of” something does not necessarily correlate to the number of times that thing happens. There are probably a billion people who know of the Super Bowl, but only 1 game (in other words, there is probably at least some double-counting going on, especially if some people complain a lot).

There are a few individual claims included in the article, but that cannot lead to the necessary conclusion that those individual claims are consistent with the overall numbers from the survey.

Here’s a more troubling survey result:

More than 20% of survey responders reported they had been “directed to inappropriately exclude or alter technical information.”

A couple things to note here. First, this is solely in the judgment of the respondent. I would love to see if all the respondents even agreed on the definition of “inappropriately.” We really have no idea why they were asked to exclude things – perhaps their finding lacked scientific rigor, but they didn’t think so, ergo “inappropriately.” Given that 69% responded that they had not been so directed, I think that says a lot.

Perhaps they should look into it more – however, it would not seem that any conclusions can be drawn from this survey.

One other thing I found troubling – there is no indication in this survey that the questions were posed with any particular date parameters. When you are talking about career scientists at Fish & Wildlife, you are talking about people who could have been there back through the Carter Administration. Yet the LA Times and the Union of Concerned Scientists (a recognized liberal front group, BTW) seem to want there to be an implication that the whole of the survey results should reflect on the policies of the current administration.

[quote]vroom wrote:

This goes along with Bush and his administration and his worldview. They keep applying pressure at all levels to support their own preconceived notions. I don’t see how anyone can miss the “management” style employed by these clowns – this is driven top-down y’know.

Again, I’m not complaining about the fact that people have different priorities, but the lengths to which the government is going to find opinions in support of their policies, be it environment, greenhouse gases, education or whatnot.[/quote]

Exactly - this administration’s so-called environmental policy is completely driven by the industries themselves. If anyone thinks they give a shit about the environment they’re a fool.

Why is everything about “liberalism” and not the truth? Oh, they’re liberals that’s why they’re so concerned about global warming and clean air.

The scientists numbering in the thousands are SCREAMING about environmental concerns along with evidence suppression and data manipulation with this administration - but just a few industry funded counter studies to their concerns and the “right” only see the scientists as the liberals that they are.

These scientists are some of the most knowledgeable, experienced experts in their field and their work is being dismissed for political and capital gain. Considering the input the environmentalists had on Bush’s energy policy, why should we be suspicious?

Environmentalists Had Limited Access to the White House Energy Task Force

A March 25 Department of Energy (DOE) press release claimed that environmental organizations refused offers to provide recommendations to the White House energy task force. The department also claimed it “actively sought all viewpoints.” The press release specifically quoted an August 10, 2001, letter from DOE to the General Accounting Office that claimed the department contacted environmental organizations to solicit recommendations and “encountered a lack of responsiveness.”

In fact, DOE’s attempt to solicit input was not a serious one. One of the DOE documents released on April 10, 2002, shows that the task force gave one of its staff members 48 hours to contact 11 environmental groups to obtain their policy recommendations. The March 21, 2001, memo (attached) from a DOE official, Margot Anderson, to another DOE staff member, Peter Karpoff, asks Karpoff to review any submitted proposals and “recommend some we might like to support that are consistent with the Administration energy statements to date.” Although NRDC was not among the 11 environmental groups listed in the memo, we did receive a call around this time from a DOE staff member, who gave us 24 hours to provide recommendations to the task force.

Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham met with more than 100 representatives from the energy industry and trade associations from late January to May 17, 2001, when the task force released its report. Environmentalists requested one meeting with him and another with Vice President Cheney. Both requests were denied.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Exactly - this administration’s so-called environmental policy is completely driven by the industries themselves. If anyone thinks they give a shit about the environment they’re a fool.

Why is everything about “liberalism” and not the truth? Oh, they’re liberals that’s why they’re so concerned about global warming and clean air.[/quote]

JTF - you wouldn’t know the truth if it was giftwrapped in “Death to Israel” wrapping paper, and handed to you by the president of the Tin-foil Hat Brigade.

Why is it that you left-wing nut jobs only bitch and moan about the environment when a conservative is in office? Remember how Reagan ‘raped the environment’? And Bush I?

[quote]The scientists numbering in the thousands are SCREAMING about environmental concerns along with evidence suppression and data manipulation with this administration - but just a few industry funded counter studies to their concerns and the “right” only see the scientists as the liberals that they are.

These scientists are some of the most knowledgeable, experienced experts in their field and their work is being dismissed for political and capital gain. Considering the input the environmentalists had on Bush’s energy policy, why should we be suspicious?

Environmentalists Had Limited Access to the White House Energy Task Force

A March 25 Department of Energy (DOE) press release claimed that environmental organizations refused offers to provide recommendations to the White House energy task force. The department also claimed it “actively sought all viewpoints.” The press release specifically quoted an August 10, 2001, letter from DOE to the General Accounting Office that claimed the department contacted environmental organizations to solicit recommendations and “encountered a lack of responsiveness.”

In fact, DOE’s attempt to solicit input was not a serious one. One of the DOE documents released on April 10, 2002, shows that the task force gave one of its staff members 48 hours to contact 11 environmental groups to obtain their policy recommendations. The March 21, 2001, memo (attached) from a DOE official, Margot Anderson, to another DOE staff member, Peter Karpoff, asks Karpoff to review any submitted proposals and “recommend some we might like to support that are consistent with the Administration energy statements to date.” Although NRDC was not among the 11 environmental groups listed in the memo, we did receive a call around this time from a DOE staff member, who gave us 24 hours to provide recommendations to the task force.[/quote]

You know what would be really cool? If you could actually reference something that is more recent that 2001. I’m sure you could find revealing article about Bush’s hatred of labor unions if you were to quote something from the mid 1930’s.

People don’t take you serious because your “Facts” are bullshit, you blame Israel for all that is evil, and you work harder to criminalize the President than anyone else on this board.

Your name should be JustTheFiction.

Please explain these facts and studies that are used. Bullshit science is worse than no science.

Yes, the world is getting warmer. Unknown, we are causing it. Until you can find another 15 Earths, keep one as the control, and pump them full of varying levels of harmful chemicals etc. and then come up with a statistical analysis of how varying levels of chemicals react with the atmosphere and alter the temperature of the planets… Please, don’t specify a reason for a phenomana.

Which brings me to the following point. We’ve been following weather data for how long… 150 years… 100 years… How long are the natural heating and cooling cycles of the Earth (Ice Age to Ice Age) 10k, 20k years?

Without massive hysteria these “scientists” cause… They’d be unemployed.

Here’s a novel concept, the truth, as in all things, is probably somewhere in the middle.

Yes, there are hysterical scientists out there who make a living by being hysterical; but then, not all scientists are hysterical and some of them have valid points.

Of course neither side is prepared to admit that the other side may have some small measure of validity to their point of view, because logical, rational debate, heaven forfend, is a slippery slope to consensus and practical action…call me optimistic.

As for Bush’s world view. Well, he has a point - and, of course, he doesn’t. Certainly, tyrannies and dictators create a climate for terrorism to reign/ operate exist; but then, if we consider some of the wonderful political activism of the happy folks in the CIA over the years, the US government is the last bunch of folk who should be telling anyone else they have holes in their political system. This doesn’t make Bush’s statements wrong, or any less relevant, but it does make you wonder…

By strict definition, the US also has terrorists living in its borders. People, who are American citizens and who, like the late, unlameted Timothy McVeigh, sincerely believe that the US has betrayed its people/ way of life/ governmental mandate etc. Amusingly, it would seem that the difference between US-bred terrorists and other countries’ terrorists is that US terrorists seem to have developed a cottage industry attacking themselves, while the foreigners seem to have cornered the market in exporting their terrorists to the US.

Maybe the US is just a convenient target for a whole lot of unresolved childhood issues :slight_smile:

Some more interesting info concerning the overall strategic thinking w/r/t the War on Terror:

Testimony Before Congress

The Counterterrorism blog ( The news room ) links to the testimony of intelligence ( http://intelligence.senate.gov/0502hrg/050216/witness.htm ), finance ( http://financialservices.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=detail&hearing=348&comm=4 ), defense ( http://www.house.gov/hasc/testimony/109thcongress/RumsfeldBudgetTestimony2-16-05.pdf ) and military ( http://www.house.gov/hasc/testimony/109thcongress/CJCSPostureStatement2-16-05.pdf )officials before Congress on the status of the War on Terror.

The intelligence testimony unanimously identifies the key threat to America as Al Qaeda and the ‘Sunni Jihadist movement’, referring to both in the same phrase as essentially comprising the same set; their choice of weapons a Chemical, Biological, Radiological or Nuclear (CBRN) attack on America. Operationally, they are adapting to the heightened Homeland Security defenses using covert methods or under the guise of charities, religious organizations, academe and the like. The intelligence community unanimously believed that ‘Al Qaeda’ – shorthand for the Sunni jihadist movement – was successfully using US operations in Iraq to create a favorable political environment for their cause not only in the Middle East, but in Muslim communities and in the Left of center political spectrum. Great power rivals, although not directly in league with terrorists, could potentially use the threat of tactical collaboration with terrorist organizations to checkmate the United States as part of their national policy by providing the enemy with enabling technologies and weapons…

All in all, the intelligence briefings painted a picture of an enemy that had not yet realized its power potential. It had been stayed, but not fatally wounded. On the contrary, if it could overcome its disorganization and mend fences with enablers it could become even more dangerous. To illustrate the resilience of the enemy, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Director Vice Admiral Lowell E. Jacoby described enemy forces in Iraq with these words ( http://intelligence.senate.gov/0502hrg/050216/jacoby.pdf ):

[i]"The insurgency in Iraq has grown in size and complexity over the past year. Attacks numbered approximately 25 per day one year ago. Today, they average in the 60s. Insurgents have demonstrated their ability to increase attacks around key events such as the Iraqi Interim Government (IIG) transfer of power, Ramadan and the recent election. Attacks on Iraq's election day reached approximately 300, double the previous one day high of approximately 150 reached during last year's Ramadan."[/i]

Yet it was not an invincible force, spreading like wildfire. It remained a curiously local devil, deriving its particular strength from the social soil of the area.

"The pattern of attacks remains the same as last year. Approximately 80% of all attacks occur in Sunni-dominated central Iraq. The Kurdish north and Shia south remain relatively calm. … We believe Sunni Arabs, dominated by Ba’athist and Former Regime Elements (FRE) comprise the core of the insurgency … collaborating, providing funds and guidance across family, tribal, religious and peer group lines.’

It was interesting that Porter Goss chose to characterize Iran as a WMD proliferation threat rather than as the direct source of a terrorist threat ( http://intelligence.senate.gov/0502hrg/050216/goss.pdf ), reflecting perhaps not so much a different intent, as a different strategy of hostility towards the United States. Even more curious was Admiral Jacoby’s intriguing reference to the Syrian WMD capability ( http://intelligence.senate.gov/0502hrg/050216/jacoby.pdf ). “Longstanding Syrian policies of supporting terrorism, relying on WMD for strategic deterrence, and occupying Lebanon remain largely unchanged.” Both Syria and Iran are depicted as having specific regional goals. Iran’s objective according to Jacoby, is regional power. “Iran’s long-term goal is to see the US leave Iraq and the region. Another Iranian goal is a weakened, decentralized and Shia-dominated Iraq that is incapable of posing a threat to Iran.” A fairly sharp distinction is drawn between ‘Al Qaeda or Sunni Jihadism’, with its apocalyptic vision of an incinerated America, and the ambitions of Syria and Iran, which seek merely specific gain. Yet the threats of course, run together, with the suppliers of weapons and their users indistinguishable at the last.

Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Zarate’s testimony ( http://financialservices.house.gov/media/pdf/021605jz.pdf ) takes us down from the heights of religious and geopolitical motivation to the way the enemy works. It is a world of crooked charities, suborned ‘non-traditional’ funds transfer systems, blackmarket currency exchanges, couriers and the trade in precious commodities. Author Douglas Farah described the workings of the Al Qaeda in the African gold, gems and precious minerals market ( http://financialservices.house.gov/media/pdf/021605df.pdf ). These descriptions, far more than Koranic quotations and nationalistic rhetoric, describe the day-to-day working of the terror networks.

The transition from Farah’s testimony to that of Secretary Donald Rumsfeld ( http://www.house.gov/hasc/testimony/109thcongress/RumsfeldBudgetTestimony2-16-05.pdf ) is somewhat startling for two reasons. First, the DOD .pdf files are the only ones formatted for copy-and-past operations, but more secondly, the testimony and its prequels raise the implicit question of how much of the War on Terror should actually be of a military nature. Rumsfeld addresses the issue up front.

[i]After more than three years of conflict, two central realities of this war are clear. The first is that this struggle cannot be won by military means alone. The Defense Department must continue to work with other government agencies to successfully employ all instruments of national power. ... A second central reality of this new era is that the United States cannot win a global struggle alone. It will take cooperation among a great many nations to stop weapons proliferation. It will take a great many nations working together to locate and dismantle global extremist cells. It takes a great many nations to gather and share the intelligence crucial to stopping future attacks. Our friends and allies are increasingly aware that the danger confronting America is at their doorstep as well, as underscored by attacks in Madrid, Bali, Beslan, Casablanca, Riyadh, Istanbul, and elsewhere.[/i]

My own personal impression of the testimonies is that Rumsfeld alone, of all the witnesses, articulated a complete grand strategic view. In particular, he understood that the threat, so well described in component by the representatives of intelligence and finance, menaced the world as a whole and not simply the United States and that it had been emerging over a long period of time.

[i]Ours was a dangerous world in the years leading up to September 11, even though it might have seemed otherwise. Consider the world as it was on September 10, 2001. Terrorists trained and plotted in Afghanistan while America?s sworn enemy in Iraq sought ways to expand his power and regularly fired at U.S. aircraft patrolling in the Northern and Southern No Fly Zones. And the next day, on that bright September morning, 19 men killed over 3,000 people in the Pentagon, Lower Manhattan and Pennsylvania. The extremists continue to plot to attack again. They are, at this moment, recalibrating and reorganizing. And so are we. This thinking enemy continues to adapt to new circumstances. And so must we refocus our efforts to defeat a network dispersed across the world and which lacks a fixed territory to defend.[/i]

Against this menace, the United States had set the following counterstrategy in train.

[i] The President?s strategy has been to create and lead an international effort to deny terrorists the resources and support they need to operate and survive. And since, ultimately, what they need to survive is the support of those who they can indoctrinate, this is an ideological battle as well. The strategy has three main components that require the support and coordination of all agencies of government and all aspects of national power:

    * First, defending the homeland: which has led to the creation of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the National Counter-Terrorism Center, the military?s Northern Command, and this Department?s homeland defense division.
    * Second, attacking and disrupting terrorist networks: With the help of allies and partners the U.S. has had considerable success in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Horn of Africa, Northwest Pakistan, and elsewhere. Some three-quarters of known al-Qaeda leaders have been captured or killed;
    * Third, countering ideological support for terrorism: This war has required not only the vigorous pursuit of known terrorists, but finding ways to stop extremists from gaining recruits and adherents. It is this ideological component, I suggest, that is the essential ingredient for victory.[/i]

Rumsfeld went on to describing the marvelous increase in American fighting capacity. The threefold increase in firepower; the 30% increase in available manuever brigades by restructuring the ground forces. He alluded indirectly to the increased offensive role of the Special Forces Command, “a sports car nobody wanted to drive for fear of denting the fender” now being utilized to its fullest extent – a fact reflected in the statistic that its operating budget has doubled although it remains at virtually the same manpower strength. Nothing captured the global reality of the struggle more than the incessant movement of personnel. Sixty three thousand military personnel were in movement at any given instant to and from their duty stations somewhere on the planet.

Yet despite the successes of the military, Rumsfeld remained acutely aware that the decisive area of operations – the political and cultural fields – remained largely outside his remit. He ended his testimony with these words:

[i]Terrorists have brains and use them. They adapt and improvise quickly. Despite the size of our bureaucracies, we must learn to be equally agile. Our enemies are nimble and media savvy, and through networks like Al Jazeera deliver their message undiluted to their target audiences. Victory in this global struggle will require a military configured and funded to defend against the security threats of this century, not the conventional battles or the conventional wisdom of the last.[/i]

It was a remarkably inarticulate peroration for a man who is anything but, and may have reflected the frustration of someone who knew that the decisive blows against the enemy were reserved for someone else; and those persons yet asleep and wholly unaware.