Bush Calls For Tighter Borders

DiogenestheCynic 2005-11-29 15:32:01 UTC #1

It's about time... ...or not...

Now it looks like we're going to give 11+ million amnesty.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0511290185nov29,1,4472519.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

"Such a program, he said, would bring undocumented workers "out of the shadows" and allow them to work legally for several years at jobs that he said Americans don't want."

American's DON'T WANT???

sasquatch 2005-11-29 15:46:23 UTC #2

What jobs are they doing that you want?

But, as has been the case with this administration,
they have no clear plan. They are way too slow to react. Who is leading here?

Professor_X 2005-11-29 15:49:08 UTC #3

There are many jobs that Americans don't seem to be running for. Nearly every jobless person could grab a used lawnmower and start working...but how many do so?

DiogenestheCynic 2005-11-29 16:10:58 UTC #4

You can't tell me American's don't want 11+ million jobs in our economy. Just last night I was watching "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel (great show) and they had some guy (caucasian) who was a shit scrapper for a living. He would go into manholes and get chest deep in a river of magma like feces and scrape the mounds of it that were collecting along the walls. He was paid $13.00 an hour.

$13.00 is a very livable wage in many areas. But I doubt he would do it for "under the table" wages that could possibly be below minimum wage.

There is an apple orchard not two miles from here where the owner does just that. Legal? No. Ethical? No.

It's usually not about jobs American's don't want. More often, it's about profiting from third world labor practices.

sasquatch 2005-11-29 16:32:31 UTC #5

Time to pull your head out of the sand.

Legal. Ethical. Since when!

DiogenestheCynic 2005-11-29 17:18:38 UTC #6

Didn't intend for that to be a naive comment. You're preaching to the choir on that count.

swivel 2005-11-29 18:23:21 UTC #7

exactly. i know a guy who envisioned himself an ivy league academic professor. very talented and intelligent and has taught at a couple of top schools before being squeezed out by the ultra specialization of his field.
he's very capable of working, intelligent, in good physical shape, but hasn't at all in a couple years 'cause he's too "proud"(stuck up)to take a job that doesn't somehow relate to his education- but there aren't any. but there are plenty of others available around here, even if temporary,

that would help to stop his finacial hemorrhaging. now he's really in the shitter. i bet he loses his house. just like prof x said nobody, and i mean nobody wants to cut their own lawn around here, but he's too frickn proud.

Professor_X 2005-11-30 00:02:12 UTC #8

DiogenestheCynic wrote:
You can't tell me American's don't want 11+ million jobs in our economy. Just last night I was watching "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel (great show) and they had some guy (caucasian) who was a shit scrapper for a living. He would go into manholes and get chest deep in a river of magma like feces and scrape the mounds of it that were collecting along the walls. He was paid $13.00 an hour.

$13.00 is a very livable wage in many areas. But I doubt he would do it for "under the table" wages that could possibly be below minimum wage.

There is an apple orchard not two miles from here where the owner does just that. Legal? No. Ethical? No.

It's usually not about jobs American's don't want. More often, it's about profiting from third world labor practices.

So, you have honestly convinced yourself that millions of Americans are jobless because the illegal immigrants have taken all of the sewer-shit-scraper jobs away that they all truly wanted.

Over the next 26 days or so, and I do hate doing this, I shall whisk away your reality by informing you that Santa Clause is just some fat old alcoholic who gets paid to dress in all red and take pictures with kids in the mall. No, really. Uh-uh, no flying reindeer either.

DiogenestheCynic 2005-11-30 01:26:50 UTC #9

I didn't say they were all jobless because of it. But some are.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back1104.html

My grief with the original article was two-fold:

1) Bush is pretending to be doing anything about illegal immigration except pandering to the very companies that profit from it.
2) Some corporate stiff-neck gets in a nice little sound byte about how illegal immigration is actually good for our society, because American's aren't really unwilling to work those jobs because of the astoundingly low (and sometimes illegal) pay. No, it's because every single American is unwilling to work because they're too proud, lazy, etc.

Please tell me why illegal immigration is good in your opinion Prof-X.

jsbrook 2005-11-30 01:59:20 UTC #10

Professor X wrote:
DiogenestheCynic wrote:
You can't tell me American's don't want 11+ million jobs in our economy. Just last night I was watching "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel (great show) and they had some guy (caucasian) who was a shit scrapper for a living. He would go into manholes and get chest deep in a river of magma like feces and scrape the mounds of it that were collecting along the walls. He was paid $13.00 an hour.

$13.00 is a very livable wage in many areas. But I doubt he would do it for "under the table" wages that could possibly be below minimum wage.

There is an apple orchard not two miles from here where the owner does just that. Legal? No. Ethical? No.

It's usually not about jobs American's don't want. More often, it's about profiting from third world labor practices.

So, you have honestly convinced yourself that millions of Americans are jobless because the illegal immigrants have taken all of the sewer-shit-scraper jobs away that they all truly wanted.

Over the next 26 days or so, and I do hate doing this, I shall whisk away your reality by informing you that Santa Clause is just some fat old alcoholic who gets paid to dress in all red and take pictures with kids in the mall. No, really. Uh-uh, no flying reindeer either.

You're both wrong. It is about jobs about jobs Americans don't want. But they will take them if there's adequate compensation. If the illegal labor market is stymied, employers will be forced to raise wages to an adequate level. Americans aren't exactly jumping for joy at unrewarding, low-paying (but not patently unreasonable) jobs we have now. But they take them. Not many people particularly want to be janitors, bathroom attendants, bathroom cleaners, etc... They do so because the money is enough to be better than the alternative. That's not the case for the jobs illegal aliens are currently working. Those jobs one just disappear if that labor market dries up. Employers will be forced to raise the wage or go out of business.

jsbrook 2005-11-30 02:05:32 UTC #11

There's no justification. It's true that the job issue would hardly be solved by limiting illegal immigration though it would probably be improved. There are certainly those who are unemployed who wouldn't take those jobs even at a higher wage. But many others would. Regardless, the only argument for illegal immigration is that we stand for the principles of freedom and are a nation of immigrants. I don't think it holds much water. Most of the immigrants in times past came here legally.

Professor_X 2005-11-30 07:26:46 UTC #12

I didn't write that it was good. However, trying to act as if the proper reaction to it should be immediate forceful removal of them all with complete disregard for what they were escaping by coming here isn't the way either. Everyone on this continent aside from the original Native Americans is a product of immigrants. How is it so many have accepted that it may take decades before we actually completely pull out of Iraq, if ever, but then want "immediate" action when it comes to the lives of people in this country? These aren't coatracks we're talking about here. Whether the future solution is tighter border control or even enhanced relations with Mexico or any other country, it will take more dimplomacy than the act of simply kicking everyone the fuck out.

As far as jobs, yes, there are some jobs that many Americans wouldn't do. Yes, raising the pay to legal Americans may help solve some of that. However, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Bush has corporate interests in mind. Isn't that what his whole administration has been about?

Zap_Branigan 2005-11-30 08:52:53 UTC #13

This is partly true. No matter how you slice it most of these jobs are minimum wage anyhow.

We are losing skilled construction jobs as well as the crappy jobs.

Walmart just got busted in Allentown, PA for having 100 illegals working on a construction site. Some of them were simple laborers, but it is my understanding that some were skilled craftsmen as well. These are jobs Americans do want.

thabigdon24 2005-12-01 02:45:07 UTC #14

Here's my case for letting the illeagal immigrants in.

The immigrants do jobs that white people just don't want to do. Everything from working in a chinese restaurant , to picking fruit, to working in construction in the summer or landscaping , you have to admit that the white people in america are getting fat and lazy. They will work hard and get a better wage than they could ever get in mexico. I have never met a dumb or lazy mexican in my life , im sure they exist but the people that come over here are smarter, more ambitous than the ones they left behind. Given the fact that they do lots of work that many americans dont want to do, if we DID sucessfully have border control, and kept the illeagals out, we would have a much higher degree of inflation. Fruit and Vegetables , Houses, and restaraunt meals will all experience a price leap just because we will have to pay laborors more, who would probably be unionized anyway. Don't discount this point because nobody wants every thing to get expensive all of a sudden. Heck , the housing boom has been cited as
the force that has kept our economy going lately. That would wither and die if the prices for new homes suddenly flew up.

Those that are hungry and want work can , will, and should find work in the US i am happy to accept them here.

Seriously, the fact that walmart just got busted for having some illeagals means jack. The federal government knows that it is in over its head , and these efforts are just a drop in the bucket, but also, that illeagal immigration has a positive or more likely a slightly or fairly positive impact on america.

lumbernac 2005-12-01 03:20:32 UTC #15

Actually, even the so-called " native americans " are beleived to have originally crossed over from Asia , over the bering straits. Humans probably originated in either Africa or the Middle East, and by then Earth's continets were split up quite nicely. I really don't beleive that the native americans have any greater rights to this peice of land , the americas, than anglos from Europe or black people or asians for that matter but this is really besides the point.

isr 2005-12-01 07:41:12 UTC #16

Interesting.

Are you saying that their possession of American land over the last few millenia did not give them any extra "rights" over this land than newcomer Anglo-Saxons fresh off the boat in the 16th century,

In which case, what "extra rights" should you have over this land, as compared with newcomer asians/mexicans/etc, fresh off the plane/boat? After all, you've only been here for a century or so (maybe less, don't know your family history).

Kuz 2005-12-01 09:31:22 UTC #17

thabigdon24 wrote:
Here's my case for letting the illeagal immigrants in.

The immigrants do jobs that white people just don't want to do. Everything from working in a chinese restaurant , to picking fruit, to working in construction in the summer or landscaping , you have to admit that the white people in america are getting fat and lazy. They will work hard and get a better wage than they could ever get in mexico. I have never met a dumb or lazy mexican in my life , im sure they exist but the people that come over here are smarter, more ambitous than the ones they left behind. Given the fact that they do lots of work that many americans dont want to do, if we DID sucessfully have border control, and kept the illeagals out, we would have a much higher degree of inflation. Fruit and Vegetables , Houses, and restaraunt meals will all experience a price leap just because we will have to pay laborors more, who would probably be unionized anyway. Don't discount this point because nobody wants every thing to get expensive all of a sudden. Heck , the housing boom has been cited as
the force that has kept our economy going lately. That would wither and die if the prices for new homes suddenly flew up.

Those that are hungry and want work can , will, and should find work in the US i am happy to accept them here.

Seriously, the fact that walmart just got busted for having some illeagals means jack. The federal government knows that it is in over its head , and these efforts are just a drop in the bucket, but also, that illeagal immigration has a positive or more likely a slightly or fairly positive impact on america.

OK, there are several problems with your line of reasoning.

First, it ignores the issue of why people are leaving places like Mexico in the first place. The Mexican government is basically encouraging illegal immigration into the U.S. because it apparently has zero interest in any kind of economic reform to improve the conditions of its own people. Hell, they even provided pamphlets to people explaining the best ways to sneak into the U.S.

Second, its a national security risk to have completely open and unregulated borders.

Third, if the labor we are currently getting from illegal immigrants is indeed so important to our economy or they are doing the jobs no one else will, then we should do something to revise the immigration law, not just continue to allow illegal immigration. I do not know if President Bush's temporary worker program is the answer or not, but maybe its a step in the right direction. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/27/bush.immigration/

thabigdon24 2005-12-01 12:35:52 UTC #18

Kuz wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:
Here's my case for letting the illeagal immigrants in.

The immigrants do jobs that white people just don't want to do. Everything from working in a chinese restaurant , to picking fruit, to working in construction in the summer or landscaping , you have to admit that the white people in america are getting fat and lazy. They will work hard and get a better wage than they could ever get in mexico. I have never met a dumb or lazy mexican in my life , im sure they exist but the people that come over here are smarter, more ambitous than the ones they left behind. Given the fact that they do lots of work that many americans dont want to do, if we DID sucessfully have border control, and kept the illeagals out, we would have a much higher degree of inflation. Fruit and Vegetables , Houses, and restaraunt meals will all experience a price leap just because we will have to pay laborors more, who would probably be unionized anyway. Don't discount this point because nobody wants every thing to get expensive all of a sudden. Heck , the housing boom has been cited as
the force that has kept our economy going lately. That would wither and die if the prices for new homes suddenly flew up.

Those that are hungry and want work can , will, and should find work in the US i am happy to accept them here.

Seriously, the fact that walmart just got busted for having some illeagals means jack. The federal government knows that it is in over its head , and these efforts are just a drop in the bucket, but also, that illeagal immigration has a positive or more likely a slightly or fairly positive impact on america.

OK, there are several problems with your line of reasoning.

First, it ignores the issue of why people are leaving places like Mexico in the first place. The Mexican government is basically encouraging illegal immigration into the U.S. because it apparently has zero interest in any kind of economic reform to improve the conditions of its own people. Hell, they even provided pamphlets to people explaining the best ways to sneak into the U.S.

Second, its a national security risk to have completely open and unregulated borders.

Third, if the labor we are currently getting from illegal immigrants is indeed so important to our economy or they are doing the jobs no one else will, then we should do something to revise the immigration law, not just continue to allow illegal immigration. I do not know if President Bush's temporary worker program is the answer or not, but maybe its a step in the right direction. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/27/bush.immigration/

I have looked at the " problems " you have presented with my arguements and i will adress them now.

Your first point is irrelevant. Granted, the mexican government doesn't care about economic reform when it is easier to encourage unemployed mexicans to go to the U.S. The benefit to America is getting dirt cheap labor. Seriously, people b!tch now about illeagal aliens but once those housing and food prices start jumping up....

IMHO the best thing to encourage economic development in Mexico is NAFTA kind of treaties where free trade is encouraged. The U.S. has moved probably hundred of large garment factories over to Mexico, b/c of the cheap labor factor , their minimum wages is 3 or 4 american dollars so it works out. More jobs in mexico = less Mexicans swimming the Rio Grande.

Your second point is valid IMO. I agree with this, of course, the whole reason why we have terrorism in the first place is that the US has some heavy handed policies in dealing with other countries. I like GWB's approach of taking the fight to the terrorists
( with Afghanistan anyway), b/c it discourages future acts if their homeland is invaded, but Iraq is not and has not been involved w/ 9/11 and is making the problem worse as far as terrorist activity/recruitment/providing a breeding ground for terror-related ideology is concerned.

Your third point about revising immigration laws is also irrelevant. B/c our government has been giving amnesty every few years to the workers that have been here since ____ , probably just as often as they raise the minimum wage. Of course it might look better for our government to not turn a blind eye to the illeagal immigration, and somehow changing current laws to fit the situation would be less cynical.

But ignore the affront to america, that these laws are being broken and instead try to think about the benefits or disadvantages this issue brings.

lumbernac 2005-12-01 12:43:49 UTC #19

Now, i could be wrong. There has been evidence of cultures in the America's before the particular ice age that the asians are thought to have come over on and are called indians now. If this is true, then the Indians would have conquered this land just like the Anglos did.

And you have a point about the length of time a particular people has been around, but time will invalidate your reasoning, b/c anglos, african americans and real " asians " not " indians" will have been here for a few millenia as well. So b!tch while you can for several thousand years but after that, well we have moral ground for being here. This isn't just some stupid awnser b/c even though i am saying it will take a few thousand years for it to be " ok " to liver here under your reasoning, it will be ok ever after.

At least with America's way of doing things, we have an acceptance of a multi cultural society versus the stictly " native american" even though they did not originate in america. So more culturals, more races can be here now. From what your seem to be proposing, that one people has a moral right to live somewhere more than anybody else, would mean that only one culture is to be there.

So, thats pretty racist in my book dude. Not to mention that conquest has been a fact of life for everybody , apparantly even for the so-called native americans b/c there may have been people living here before that. So quit whining and build an indian casino and help your people out. Its more constructive than whining about what was lost.

Im white, btw, im sure that in several thousand years when other races are on the top, white people will be whining to no effect about how they aren't any more. Its best to get over it and get productive.

Thanks, oh and my family has came in with the pilgrims. We are very much a new england family have lots of relatives in virginia

Professor_X 2005-12-01 12:53:18 UTC #20

What? No, seriously, when you wrote this, it sounded like a logical response to what was previously posted? We have "moral ground" for being here? I thought it was because Native Americans were invaded, battled and thrown into Reservations. Now it is because of morals?