[quote]Digity wrote:
As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless. [/quote]
What you did there is anything but “thinking”.
There is and has always been consensus that protein is the building block of muscles. Why would you want to temper with established facts? It’s not “thinking”.
[quote]Digity wrote:
I don’t buy that for a second. Newbs needs direction and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think being given proper direction from those who know what they are talking about improves the chances that a beginner will stick to bodybuilding.
For instance, imagine you’re a newb who doesn’t eat enough and does curls and bench presses all day. Now, you have another newb who is told to eat a lot more and follow the “Starting Strength” program. The first person goes nowhere and ends up getting frustrated and quits. The second person, who listened to experienced lifters, starts to see his weight go up and muscles grow and becomes even more motivated to keep going.
[/quote]
Has the concept of watching other people who are more experienced than you never crossed your mind? Jumping on the internet when you are completely clueless makes even less sense because the information you get is questionable to begin with. How would a beginner tell the difference between good information and schemes about getting them “ripped in 90 days”?
[quote]Digity wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Digity wrote:
<<< As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless. >>>
I won’t make any friends with this one, but here goes anyway.
For somebody who will ultimately get it in this game, thinking for yourself as a clueless noob with all the mistakes and stumbling around is the single most valuable learning experience they will ever go through.
Someone who can’t get rolling in a relatively short amount of time without being led by the hand and babysat will probably never REALLY get it.
That doesn’t mean they should just become a sedentary slug and ditch the weights, any exercise is good, but they’ll be following whatever they read last around in circles forever.
I don’t buy that for a second. Newbs needs direction and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think being given proper direction from those who know what they are talking about improves the chances that a beginner will stick to bodybuilding.
For instance, imagine you’re a newb who doesn’t eat enough and does curls and bench presses all day. Now, you have another newb who is told to eat a lot more and follow the “Starting Strength” program. The first person goes nowhere and ends up getting frustrated and quits. The second person, who listened to experienced lifters, starts to see his weight go up and muscles grow and becomes even more motivated to keep going.
[/quote]
I’m not saying not to listen to experienced lifters or that noobs should be given NO direction. What I AM saying is that for someone who will wind up achieving high in this game everything, information wise, they need for their first year can be conveyed on a single side of a single piece of looseleaf and one intelligent 15 minute conversation. Any more than that is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive.
Working in with some experienced lifters would be fabulous, but truly experienced lifters will know that they can only help so much and he will have to develop a philosophy of his own like they did.
Noobs today are buried up to their nostrils in information that is entirely irrelevant to them and robs them of the experience of learning on their own.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Digity wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Digity wrote:
<<< As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless. >>>
I won’t make any friends with this one, but here goes anyway.
For somebody who will ultimately get it in this game, thinking for yourself as a clueless noob with all the mistakes and stumbling around is the single most valuable learning experience they will ever go through.
Someone who can’t get rolling in a relatively short amount of time without being led by the hand and babysat will probably never REALLY get it.
That doesn’t mean they should just become a sedentary slug and ditch the weights, any exercise is good, but they’ll be following whatever they read last around in circles forever.
I don’t buy that for a second. Newbs needs direction and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think being given proper direction from those who know what they are talking about improves the chances that a beginner will stick to bodybuilding.
For instance, imagine you’re a newb who doesn’t eat enough and does curls and bench presses all day. Now, you have another newb who is told to eat a lot more and follow the “Starting Strength” program. The first person goes nowhere and ends up getting frustrated and quits. The second person, who listened to experienced lifters, starts to see his weight go up and muscles grow and becomes even more motivated to keep going.
I’m not saying not to listen to experienced lifters or that noobs should be given NO direction. What I AM saying is that for someone who will wind up achieving high in this game everything, information wise, they need for their first year can be conveyed on a single side of a single piece of looseleaf and one intelligent 15 minute conversation. Any more than that is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive.
Working in with some experienced lifters would be fabulous, but truly experienced lifters will know that they can only help so much and he will have to develop a philosophy of his own like they did.
Noobs today are buried up to their nostrils in information that is entirely irrelevant to them and robs them of the experience of learning on their own.[/quote]
Well said. I would actually recommend most beginners AVOID reading many of the articles here until they at least understand what actually causes their muscles to get bigger. There is too much mismatched info even on this website, especially with half of the authors expressing their personal hatred of bodybuilding at every opportunity when most of that approach is exactly what they should be following.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Digity wrote:
As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless.
What you did there is anything but “thinking”.[/quote]
That was my whole point!
[quote]Digity wrote:
lixy wrote:
Digity wrote:
As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless.
What you did there is anything but “thinking”.
That was my whole point![/quote]
That beginners don’t think? Look, the ones who are that in the dark that they lack all ability to think for themselves aren’t exactly cut out for an activity that has the end goal of knowing your own body better than anyone else does. I am all for helping a newbie, but someone unmotivated to help themselves needs to find another hobby. Most of these people should be starting by actually going to a gym on a regular basis and OBSERVING OTHERS while spending more time learning biology and basic anatomy rather than worrying about what Chad Waterbury has to say about whatever it is he writes about.
There have literally been people on this site who have claimed that they spent two years reading the articles here before they ever actually started lifting because there was SO much information and they thought they had to go through all of it. Someone that unmotivated to actually start lifting on their own because they need someone to hold their hand every step of the way is a weightlifting loser.
Helping others who will benefit from it and helping others who expect to be spoonfed are two completely different things. I don’t do spoonfeedings.
[quote]Digity wrote:
lixy wrote:
Digity wrote:
As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless.
What you did there is anything but “thinking”.
That was my whole point![/quote]
Well, it sure wasn’t ProfX’s.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Digity wrote:
I don’t buy that for a second. Newbs needs direction and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think being given proper direction from those who know what they are talking about improves the chances that a beginner will stick to bodybuilding.
For instance, imagine you’re a newb who doesn’t eat enough and does curls and bench presses all day. Now, you have another newb who is told to eat a lot more and follow the “Starting Strength” program. The first person goes nowhere and ends up getting frustrated and quits. The second person, who listened to experienced lifters, starts to see his weight go up and muscles grow and becomes even more motivated to keep going.
Has the concept of watching other people who are more experienced than you never crossed your mind? Jumping on the internet when you are completely clueless makes even less sense because the information you get is questionable to begin with. How would a beginner tell the difference between good information and schemes about getting them “ripped in 90 days”?[/quote]
Other than books, the internet was the only other resource I had available to me. Sure, if I knew people that were big and muscular I’d talk to them…unfortunately, I don’t. That being said, it was through this forum that I finally came to terms with the concept of eating more. That’s just one example of how using the internet helped me. That being said, I wouldn’t completely dismiss it as a resource for beginners.
A beginner will get confused by all the information out there. That’s why I think the onus is on the authors to make it clear who the material is intended for. If that was clearly laid out then there’d be a lot less confusion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Most of these people should be starting by actually going to a gym on a regular basis and OBSERVING OTHERS while spending more time learning biology and basic anatomy rather than worrying about what Chad Waterbury has to say about whatever it is he writes about.
[/quote]
Only problem is that most gyms have very few people worth observing. Not trying to excuse anyone’s inability to succeed here… just a sad, sad observation.
[quote]Digity wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Digity wrote:
I don’t buy that for a second. Newbs needs direction and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think being given proper direction from those who know what they are talking about improves the chances that a beginner will stick to bodybuilding.
For instance, imagine you’re a newb who doesn’t eat enough and does curls and bench presses all day. Now, you have another newb who is told to eat a lot more and follow the “Starting Strength” program. The first person goes nowhere and ends up getting frustrated and quits. The second person, who listened to experienced lifters, starts to see his weight go up and muscles grow and becomes even more motivated to keep going.
Has the concept of watching other people who are more experienced than you never crossed your mind? Jumping on the internet when you are completely clueless makes even less sense because the information you get is questionable to begin with. How would a beginner tell the difference between good information and schemes about getting them “ripped in 90 days”?
Other than books, the internet was the only other resource I had available to me. Sure, if I knew people that were big and muscular I’d talk to them…unfortunately, I don’t. That being said, it was through this forum that I finally came to terms with the concept of eating more. That’s just one example of how using the internet helped me. That being said, I wouldn’t completely dismiss it as a resource for beginners.
A beginner will get confused by all the information out there. That’s why I think the onus is on the authors to make it clear who the material is intended for. If that was clearly laid out then there’d be a lot less confusion.[/quote]
I have mentioned that about the authors many times before, so many that I wonder if anyone is actually listening. I told CT this when that article was first released and had many beginners act like I was the one who didn’t know what he was talking about. Many of those same beginners have since sent me pm’s apologizing for that, but none of that changes the fact that you NEED to learn from someone directly who has more experience if the goal is to actually stand out from the crowd. I find it hard to believe that there is no one who actually looks like they have big muscles in ANY gym you’ve been to. I would think the more likely issue is that some of you are afraid to speak to them.
I searched out people like that. I asked every question I could think of and they responded to the fact that I didn’t act like I knew it all just because I read some fucking on line articles…like many beginners do today.
Most of you simply WANT to believe certain things which is why so many beginners latched onto that “10% Rule”. You did so because it meshed with some preconceived notion that you will somehow look like a cover model for Men’s Health within the first 3 weeks of lifting.
Not only that, but we should all be putting an end to people giving advice on this forum when they themselves haven’t built shit’s worth of muscle mass yet are telling others to avoid direct biceps work.
[quote]Christine wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Most of these people should be starting by actually going to a gym on a regular basis and OBSERVING OTHERS while spending more time learning biology and basic anatomy rather than worrying about what Chad Waterbury has to say about whatever it is he writes about.
Only problem is that most gyms have very few people worth observing. Not trying to excuse anyone’s inability to succeed here… just a sad, sad observation.[/quote]
I think many more people just choose shitty gyms. You can’t train at some place like Planet Fitness and expect to see someone who can bench 400+lbs.
If your gym serves coffee and doughnuts, chances are some huge dude with the nickname TANK with a 21" neck will avoid the place.
I train at 24 Hour Fitness in Houston and if you go to the gym anytime between 5-8:30pm, all you will see are clueless fuckers running into each other. Most of the serious people wait until they leave.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Digity wrote:
lixy wrote:
Digity wrote:
As you see, thinking for yourself can be a recipe for disaster if you’re completely clueless.
What you did there is anything but “thinking”.
That was my whole point!
That beginners don’t think? Look, the ones who are that in the dark that they lack all ability to think for themselves aren’t exactly cut out for an activity that has the end goal of knowing your own body better than anyone else does. I am all for helping a newbie, but someone unmotivated to help themselves needs to find another hobby. Most of these people should be starting by actually going to a gym on a regular basis and OBSERVING OTHERS while spending more time learning biology and basic anatomy rather than worrying about what Chad Waterbury has to say about whatever it is he writes about.
There have literally been people on this site who have claimed that they spent two years reading the articles here before they ever actually started lifting because there was SO much information and they thought they had to go through all of it. Someone that unmotivated to actually start lifting on their own because they need someone to hold their hand every step of the way is a weightlifting loser.
Helping others who will benefit from it and helping others who expect to be spoonfed are two completely different things. I don’t do spoonfeedings.[/quote]
I agree. If you need that much spoonfeeding then your head is probably not in the game enough. I had the problem of paralysis by analysis. I had so much information in front of me…some contradictory…I didn’t know what to do. Eventually, I said fuck it and I picked one program and went with it. I’m glad I just jumped into it. I probably could have better results than I currently do three months into it, but at least I started. If I didn’t, I’d still be at square one reading a million more articles on how to build muscle without having really done any of the real work.
I’m not condoning “armchair bodybuilding” here. I think someone who sits there for months reading about bodybuilding and not applying any of it is wasting a ton of valuable time. That being said, we still need some information…not tons, but still some. The combination of proper direction and action leads to success. I decided to think for myself and was misdirected. Misdirection and action leads to failure. My whole point was that beginners should get SOME advice so they don’t waste precious times following a misdirected plan. However, it’s when beginners overdo it and want to read everything out there that things fall apart.
[quote]Digity wrote:
I agree. If you need that much spoonfeeding then your head is probably not in the game enough. I had the problem of paralysis by analysis. I had so much information in front of me…some contradictory…I didn’t know what to do.[/quote]
Thusly why most beginners should avoid most of these articles. Advanced lifters know what to take and what to leave from what they see from an author. Clueless beginners believe EVERYTHING they read, including every single ridiculous ad in the magazines.
[quote]
I’m not condoning “armchair bodybuilding” here. I think someone who sits there for months reading about bodybuilding and not applying any of it is wasting a ton of valuable time. That being said, we still need some information…not tons, but still some. The combination of proper direction and action leads to success. I decided to think for myself and was misdirected. Misdirection and action leads to failure. My whole point was that beginners should get SOME advice so they don’t waste precious times following a misdirected plan. However, it’s when beginners overdo it and want to read everything out there that things fall apart.[/quote]
Some advice is “Keep it simple”. Some advice is “eat until you see a weight increase and lift HEAVY weights in the gym that actually cause you to strain to lift it”.
Some advice is not giving beginners some hyper-specific routine to follow that tells them they all need to drop to 10% body fat before they gain any weight in spite of the fact that most reading have a lean body mass equal to most 3rd grade boys.
Too many of these authors have confused the issue to such a degree that most don’t know if they should run away screaming from bodybuilding or embrace it. They are being told that “functionality” (which means absolutely NOTHING and is about as useful a term as “toning”) should be the main goal as if eating more and lifting heavy falls beneath kettleballs and one legged deadlifts on a Bosu ball.
As someone relatively new to doing this thing correctly, I figured I’d chime in on my experience in learning, lifting and information overload.
When I first started lifting, I went to the gym in college with my bigger buddies who were football players. I lifted heavy weights like they did and ate like they did. Surprise! I grew a bunch.
Then I started reading stuff on the internet about lifting. I ignored nutrition stuff and ate like shit. I stopped growing no matter what new program I switched to. I overloaded myself with info FAR beyond my understanding. I got frustrated and stopped lifting. Then I got fat. I stayed fat for a long time.
I got sick of being fat and got back in the game, lifting and learning about nutrition (and eating right) while ignoring the stuff beyond my progress. I’m not fat anymore (40+ lbs later) and now I’m going to start adding mass. I’m starting from scratch here with beginner stuff, heavy deads and squats and proper nutrition, above all. All that advanced information? I’ve got it compartmentalized “for later use” (like when I have arms over 16"). The overabundance of information can be daunting and it’s very easy to get wrapped up in small details inconsequential to one’s own situation, body and progress.
I am going to chime in because I have views from both sides of the fence. Last semester I found this website. I was training at the time. When I started reading this website I actually switched programs every week after I read something from a different author every night. I have finally dropped my ADD and have been making gains since, utilizing the info I have learned. I also believe that if I just watched the guys at my home gym I would still be doing triple drop sets for every isolation exercise because that is what the bodybuilders at my gym do.
If what your doing is correct how much does it matter whether you get to 10% first or not?
Either way your going to bulk up and cut down. Thats the natural cycle of nearly all professional bodybuilders.
If you didn’t gain then maybe your bulk cycle sucked and if you didn’t cut then your cutting cycle sucked.
I’m about 200 pounds and anywhere from 195-200 pounds and 15-18% bf. I don’t look bad with a shirt off but you ain’t seeing any abs
my ultimate goals are strength and performance related but I also would like to get cut for once in my life. I also do a LOT of physical activity and eat clean but my maintenance is probably around 4500 calories.
Do I “cut” and try to shed 10-15 pounds of bf the next couple months, or do I continue on the path I am on and just hope the fat comes off?
The whole cutting and bulking thing is tough to judge because I hear it’s pretty difficult to make any gains while cutting, but it’s also like- if not now, then when?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I find it hard to believe that there is no one who actually looks like they have big muscles in ANY gym you’ve been to. I would think the more likely issue is that some of you are afraid to speak to them.
[/quote]
Believe it. I’ve told you this before. The idea that I’d “be afraid” of asking someone some questions is laughable.
[quote]Digity wrote:
I agree. If you need that much spoonfeeding then your head is probably not in the game enough. I had the problem of paralysis by analysis. I had so much information in front of me…some contradictory…I didn’t know what to do. Eventually, I said fuck it and I picked one program and went with it. I’m glad I just jumped into it. I probably could have better results than I currently do three months into it, but at least I started. If I didn’t, I’d still be at square one reading a million more articles on how to build muscle without having really done any of the real work.
I’m not condoning “armchair bodybuilding” here. I think someone who sits there for months reading about bodybuilding and not applying any of it is wasting a ton of valuable time. That being said, we still need some information…not tons, but still some. The combination of proper direction and action leads to success. I decided to think for myself and was misdirected. Misdirection and action leads to failure. My whole point was that beginners should get SOME advice so they don’t waste precious times following a misdirected plan. However, it’s when beginners overdo it and want to read everything out there that things fall apart.[/quote]
The point you’re missing is that it’s not the thinking that’s important it’s the use of common sense.
If you were using common sense when you realised that your diet was inadequate what do you think would have been the logical outcome?
Eat more.
I’m not insulting you because I used to be just like you are but luckily for me I naturally question everything and can learn from my mistakes. I could have used common sense from the beginning but I assumed that “they must know better than I do, right?”, “they must know my body better than I do, right?”.
Wrong.
Being pointed in the right direction is valuable but you should find your own path after that. It’s through trial and error that you learn what’s really valuable i.e. what actually works for YOU.
The sooner you can reach a point where you believe that you may actually be able to contribute something worthwhile to your own progress, instead of looking for guidance and validation the better.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< Has the concept of watching other people who are more experienced than you never crossed your mind? >>>[/quote]
That’s what I did. There was one group of three guys who were really big where I first started and I use to kinda clandestinely hang around where they were so as to overhear what they were saying. I was afraid to even talk to them for fear that one would palm the top of my head and lift me off the floor. Here’s the interesting part. Even though at that point I had no idea where I wanted to end up and never dreamed I could be that big it just naturally seemed logical to me that if I wanted to get ANYWHERE guys like this were a good bet for information.
Here’s the Ripley’s level amazing logic I used.
These were the biggest guys I had even seen in person.
I had been all over North America and lived in 4 states thus personally seeing multitudes of people.
Those 2 points led me to believe that since out of all the people I’d ever seen these guys were bigger by a mile it followed that they probably weren’t that way before training.
That meant that they knew how make themselves that big and even though as a scrawny toothpick my whole life I didn’t think I had much potential, at the very least listening to these guys would let me know I did some of this right.
This whole thought process happened unconsciously in about 20 or 30 seconds. All I really picked up from them because I didn’t understand most of what they were talking about, was work you $%&@# ass off, eat lots of food and make sure you hit every body part including back and legs. I also did pick up some exercises watching them.
Within a year or so with practically no other help I had a reasonably solid foundational grip on everything that really really matters. I am actually grateful for the internet not being around yet then which is no knock on T-Nation or the web, but that early pilgrimage was priceless.
If I were ever to train anybody else one of the rules would be that they are not allowed to surf muscle sites until I said they were ready. That may sound arrogant, but I am not up to hours of useless bantering about the latest stuff they read.