Bulking on the AD

Diet and Nutrition
21

Thats what i was thinking as well ghm. Since you’re not in ketosis, you body really can’t tell the difference between 30g and 70g can it? I mean thats what the premise of T-dawg diet. If you only consume carbs Periworkout and keep fat high and protein moderate you should be fine. Lets says you need to consume 3000kcals a day to gain muscle.
On workout days you consume:
100g carbs= 13% (surge and breakfast)
179g fat= 54%
248g protein= 33%.

nonworkout days, you can calorie cycle ~2883
70g carbs max, but going lower cant hurt= ~9%
179g fat= 54%
248g Protein= 33%

just a thought, hopes this helps anyone with questions, this is what i am going to try since carb cycling codex wasn’t for me.

22

I completely agree with you eengrms76, fats give you essential fatty acids, protein gives you essential amino acids and carbs give you nothing.

I think surge is awesome and i feel it really helps my recovery so I always use it. I think a lot of people don’t wanna give up there CHO because they taste good and will use every excuse to get them (not saying anyone here is), i know i did. I find it hard to get in a caloric surplus without carbs but its all about organization and planning out your day.

23

you silly fellows are so LOLrus.

I’m an AD vet, still am. One thing many of you must remember is that the AD is actually a very HIGH carb diet in many ways. You realize this once you’ve been on it for a bit.

Yes you rock the low carb/hi fat for 5 days (sometimes 4 or 3 if you are looking to bulk). but then you take in about 300-500 carbs in 1 day for 2 days. that’s 600-1000 carbs in a week. divided by 7 that’s about 100-160 carbs per day but all jammed into one day.

Thus ones carb ups are the key to controlling the gain of muscle or the loss of fat. A fat loss carb up looks like beans and oatmeal. A size gaining carb up looks like rice and goodies. After being on the regular 5/2 cycle for a few months skinny kids can even get less low CHO days in and go 4/2 or 3/2.

Depends on your goals gents.

-chris

24

But why go so low carb for those 4 or 5 days then eat a shit ton of carbs on the other days instead of just eating moderate carbs everyday?? That way you could get ample carbs in at breakfast and peri-workout, every time you train instead of just on the weekends. I’m not sure I understand the point I guess.

25

[quote]Avocado wrote:
you silly fellows are so LOLrus.

I’m an AD vet, still am. One thing many of you must remember is that the AD is actually a very HIGH carb diet in many ways. You realize this once you’ve been on it for a bit.

Yes you rock the low carb/hi fat for 5 days (sometimes 4 or 3 if you are looking to bulk). but then you take in about 300-500 carbs in 1 day for 2 days. that’s 600-1000 carbs in a week. divided by 7 that’s about 100-160 carbs per day but all jammed into one day.

Thus ones carb ups are the key to controlling the gain of muscle or the loss of fat. A fat loss carb up looks like beans and oatmeal. A size gaining carb up looks like rice and goodies. After being on the regular 5/2 cycle for a few months skinny kids can even get less low CHO days in and go 4/2 or 3/2.

Depends on your goals gents.

-chris[/quote]

I’ll defer to Avocado as to the protocol for the AD. And, thanks for that input on the particulars of the AD. To the extent, there’s a carb-up within the AD protocol, there’s, of course, a bulk-up.

This string started, however, with someoneone inquiring how the AD could be genuinely “anabolic” on the assumption that it is purely of a low-carb nature, which how many of us think of the AD in the generic sense (perhaps erroneously as Avocado points out). With respect to the low-carb aspect of the AD protocol, it’s a great diet, but, as I said, it’s more precisely an anti-catabolic fat loss protocol, as opposed to being “anabolic”.

Respectfully to Engrm and Alaw (sorry if I mispelled your handles), you’re both wrong-- One canNOT appreciably “bulk” up (i.e., gain muscle) without carbs (or as the case may be, during a low-carb dietary phase); a calorie is NOT just a calorie; and carbs do NOT “give you nothing.” Carbs are required for significant production of insulin, which is the naturally occuring hormone that is, far and away, the most crucial to muscle protein synthesis (i.e., protein anabolism) in response to resistance training.

Specifically, insulin is primarily responsible for the transport of aminos and glycogen to muscle tissue that is adapting to stress. It is also responsible for reducing circulating cortisol levels after training. A normal to high-normal level of testosterone is, of course, important to protein synthesis (as well as other perhaps more important functions), but naturally manufactured androgen isn’t anywhere near as “anabolic” as insulin that is naturally produced to clear glucose from the bloodstream.

You’re fooling yourself if you think you can add appreciable muscle while staying lean through a low-carb protocol simply by maintaining protein intake and upping calories in the form of healthful EFA’s. Now, what might happen on a low-carb (or any) dietary protocol, while one also has superphysiologic levels of androgen from exogenous sources is, of course, another story having nothing to do with this string’s original question relating to whether the low-carb aspect of the AD is genuinely “anabolic”. If you want to gain muscle without simultaneously increasing body fat, you can, of course, try a course of Tren. But, don’t be confusing it with fish oil .

26

[quote]ghm wrote:
Avocado wrote:
you silly fellows are so LOLrus.

I’m an AD vet, still am. One thing many of you must remember is that the AD is actually a very HIGH carb diet in many ways. You realize this once you’ve been on it for a bit.

Yes you rock the low carb/hi fat for 5 days (sometimes 4 or 3 if you are looking to bulk). but then you take in about 300-500 carbs in 1 day for 2 days. that’s 600-1000 carbs in a week. divided by 7 that’s about 100-160 carbs per day but all jammed into one day.

Thus ones carb ups are the key to controlling the gain of muscle or the loss of fat. A fat loss carb up looks like beans and oatmeal. A size gaining carb up looks like rice and goodies. After being on the regular 5/2 cycle for a few months skinny kids can even get less low CHO days in and go 4/2 or 3/2.

Depends on your goals gents.

-chris

I’ll defer to Avocado as to the protocol for the AD. And, thanks for that input on the particulars of the AD. To the extent, there’s a carb-up within the AD protocol, there’s, of course, a bulk-up.

This string started, however, with someoneone inquiring how the AD could be genuinely “anabolic” on the assumption that it is purely of a low-carb nature, which how many of us think of the AD in the generic sense (perhaps erroneously as Avocado points out). With respect to the low-carb aspect of the AD protocol, it’s a great diet, but, as I said, it’s more precisely an anti-catabolic fat loss protocol, as opposed to being “anabolic”.

Respectfully to Engrm and Alaw (sorry if I mispelled your handles), you’re both wrong-- One canNOT appreciably “bulk” up (i.e., gain muscle) without carbs (or as the case may be, during a low-carb dietary phase); a calorie is NOT just a calorie; and carbs do NOT “give you nothing.” Carbs are required for significant production of insulin, which is the naturally occuring hormone that is, far and away, the most crucial to muscle protein synthesis (i.e., protein anabolism) in response to resistance training. Specifically, insulin is primarily responsible for the transport of aminos and glycogen to muscle tissue that is adapting to stress. It is also responsible for reducing circulating cortisol levels after training. A normal to high-normal level of testosterone is, of course, important to protein synthesis (as well as other perhaps more important functions), but naturally manufactured androgen isn’t anywhere near as “anabolic” as insulin that is naturally produced to clear glucose from the bloodstream.

You’re fooling yourself if you think you can add appreciable muscle while staying lean through a low-carb protocol simply by maintaining protein intake and upping calories in the form of healthful EFA’s. Now, what might happen on a low-carb (or any) dietary protocol, while one also has superphysiologic levels of androgen from exogenous sources is, of course, another story having nothing to do with this string’s original question relating to whether the low-carb aspect of the AD is genuinely “anabolic”. If you want to gain muscle without simultaneously increasing body fat, you can, of course, try a course of Tren. But, don’t be confusing it with fish oil .
[/quote]

As smart as you think you are I’m still surprised you think that carbs are the only macronutrient that can elicit an insulin response. I probably have a little more experience in that area seeing as I’m diabetic, so it isn’t really fair I guess. You are basically saying that what I experienced on the AD is not physically possible, even though it did in fact happen. Hmmm…

27

Overall, glucose and insulin scores were highly correlated (r = 0.70, P < 0.001, n = 38). However, protein-rich foods and bakery products (rich in fat and refined carbohydrate) elicited insulin responses that were disproportionately higher than their glycemic responses. Total carbohydrate (r = 0.39, P < 0.05, n = 36) and sugar (r = 0.36, P < 0.05, n = 36) contents were positively related to the mean insulin scores, whereas fat (r = -0.27, NS, n = 36) and protein (r = -0.24, NS, n = 38) contents were negatively related.

So if your main goal is to elicit an insulin response it is possible without carbohydrates.

Charles Poliquin says he uses low carb high fat on 75% of his clients. I know he usually exagerattes a little bit but still he swears by low carb.

28

[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
Overall, glucose and insulin scores were highly correlated (r = 0.70, P < 0.001, n = 38). However, protein-rich foods and bakery products (rich in fat and refined carbohydrate) elicited insulin responses that were disproportionately higher than their glycemic responses. Total carbohydrate (r = 0.39, P < 0.05, n = 36) and sugar (r = 0.36, P < 0.05, n = 36) contents were positively related to the mean insulin scores, whereas fat (r = -0.27, NS, n = 36) and protein (r = -0.24, NS, n = 38) contents were negatively related.

So if your main goal is to elicit an insulin response it is possible without carbohydrates.

Charles Poliquin says he uses low carb high fat on 75% of his clients. I know he usually exagerattes a little bit but still he swears by low carb.[/quote]

  1. Of course an insulin response is had from macronutrients other than carbs. Aminos themselves can elicit an insulin response. Also, the right EFA’s can improve hormonal balance and help with insulin sensitivity, which is one of the great things about a low-carb and “smart fats” protocol. But, the question presented was whether one typically can gain an appreciable amount of muscle(i.e., “bulk up”) while losing or maintaining bodyfat with a low-carb diet or in a low-carb phase. The answer is NO. The study “results” you quote (assuming they’re at all relevant) neither bear out your point, nor do they refute my basic premise. (The “results” sound like uneventful confirmation of the fact that the GI of a given carb source does not, by itself, predict its insulin response, because its protein and fat content are factors as well.)

  2. I love low-carb diets for overall body comp, health and performance–not for bulking, which is the crus of the issue at hand. All my posts in this string demonstrate my undying affection for low-carb diets. So, I don’t know why you’re replying as if I have a problem with low-carb diets.

  3. Poliquin primarily (albeit not exclusively) trains athletes for performance, not just bodybuilders for bulking. And, as reflected in my pro-low-carb posts, I’m not at all surprised that he advocates (anti-catabolic, but not appreciably anabolic) low-carb diets for . Poliquin does say that it’s possible to gain muscle while losing bodyfat by improving insulin sensitivity and overall health through the cosumption of “smart fats.” No argument there. But, I’ve never heard him say that one can appreciably “bulk up” without also consuming carbs, especially during or after a workout. Here is a relevant Poliquin quote:

The Best Time to Have a Post-Workout Meal.
The sooner, the better. Scientific research points out that there is a direct correlation between the proximity of the post-workout meal and the rate of glycogen resynthesis. I believe that liquid meals work best, and adding protein to the liquid carbohydrate solution will markedly increase the glycogen content of muscle. HOWEVER, IF YOU’RE TRAINING TO PUT ON MASS, USE 2 G/KG (0.9 GRAMS PER POUND) OF CARBS, AND 0.5 G/KG (0.23 GRAMS PER POUND) OF PROTEIN. IF YOU NEED TO LOSE BODY FAT, KEEP THE CARBS AT 0.6 G/KG OF BODYWEIGHT (ABOUT .27 GRAMS PER POUND).

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2002390

  1. Eengrm brings nothing to the table but juvenile banter and pointless “snarkiness.” All I did was state an opinion about the AD (as to its low-carb component) and he responded with insults. First, if he’s on the true AD protocol (about which Avocado corrected us), then he may well have bulked up BECAUSE OF THE CARB-UP PHASE of the AD, which really has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If, on the other hand, he’s not on the true AD and is strictly low-carb, then I’m not going to try to refute his self-proclaimed empirical bulking “experience” because I don’t know the point from which he started and where he ended, bodycomp-wise. Of course, his diabetic condition can be a factor in his own progression, and if he takes insulin (which I obviously have no way of knowing one way or another), that, of course, would be another factor. I don’t claim to be smarter than anybody else. That’s just Eengrm’s self-serving fiction. I just have my own experience with a low-carb with “smart fats” protocol, and I know the basics.
29

[quote]ghm wrote:
But, the question presented was whether one typically can gain an appreciable amount of muscle(i.e., “bulk up”) while losing or maintaining bodyfat with a low-carb diet or in a low-carb phase. [/quote]

Rubbish! A stable or decreasing bodyfat ratio was never part of the question as asked by the OP.

30

[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
also, another question…

if someone is very lean already, would they have better results “bulking” with a carb-type diet rather than an anabolic type diet, since their insulin sensitivity would be better than those with higher bodyfat?[/quote]

Lixy:

Above is the post to which I was responding. That’s a natural lead-in to the question presented, as I described it–i.e, whether one can bulk up from the AD, as distinct from what the OP described as “a carb-type diet”. In fact, just look at the OP’s subject line–“Bulking on the AD.”

And, regardless of whether the OP intended that to be the question, my premise, from the get-go, was that the AD (to the extent low-carb) was primarily anti-catabolic, as opposed to being “anabolic,” and that is the premise with which Alaw and Eegrm seem to take issue.

31

[quote]lixy wrote:
skinnymuscles wrote:
Something I don’t understand about bulking on the anabolic diet… if the excess cals are coming from fat, why do they not get stored as bodyfat? By what mechanism is the fat converted into lean muscle tissue?

Fat is not converted into lean muscle tissue. Where did you hear this preposterous claim?[/quote]

Lixy:

I see from your initial response to the OP that you have no interest in even trying to respond constructively to a genuine question. Instead, you just want to denegrate. You and Eegrm should become penpals, so you can needlessly exchange insults and refine your skill of being offended and offensive for no good reason.

32

I’m not a believer in the bulk-up/get lean approach in hypertrophy training. For 75% of the population, I strongly believe that if you want to GAIN LEAN BODY MASS while losing fat, the low-carb approach will do it better than anything, especially if you’re taking supplements that enhance insulin sensitivity.
-Charles Poliquin

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1138762

I know we have kind of changed this thread from the Anabolic Diet to low-carb bulking, but I still wanna grasp this concept.

In order to gain muscle you have to be in a caloric surplus, so since its a low-carb diet not a ketogenic diet, we can still consume some carbs, it just depends on your definition of low carbs is (say 50g a day, some say 100g, some say <10%). Since we don’t want our protein to be used for energy, we have to increase uptake in fats.

If you are in a caloric surplus with adequate protein and fat intake with minimal carbs then it is possible to gain muscle. I think this falls right along the lines of the t-dawg diet except for gaining mass rather than losing fat.

33

[quote]ghm wrote:
lixy wrote:
skinnymuscles wrote:
Something I don’t understand about bulking on the anabolic diet… if the excess cals are coming from fat, why do they not get stored as bodyfat? By what mechanism is the fat converted into lean muscle tissue?

Fat is not converted into lean muscle tissue. Where did you hear this preposterous claim?

Lixy:

I see from your initial response to the OP that you have no interest in even trying to respond constructively to a genuine question. Instead, you just want to denegrate. You and Eegrm should become penpals, so you can needlessly exchange insults and refine your skill of being offended and offensive for no good reason.[/quote]

You’re on the wrong site chief. We’re not polite around here.

34

OK, as the OP, sorry I have been away from the thread… I have been studying for finals and actually have a life outside of T-Nation… haha

anyways, I didnt want this to turn into a battle of carbs versus no carbs. I was just asking a simple science question. if the exta cals come from fat, why arent they stored as bodyfat?

35

[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
OK, as the OP, sorry I have been away from the thread… I have been studying for finals and actually have a life outside of T-Nation… haha

anyways, I didnt want this to turn into a battle of carbs versus no carbs. I was just asking a simple science question. if the exta cals come from fat, why arent they stored as bodyfat? [/quote]

And this was answered back on the first page. On the AD your body is primed to use fat as fuel. So any excess (within reason) is just used as fuel and not stored.

Seriously if you are considering the diet read the book.

36

[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
I’m not a believer in the bulk-up/get lean approach in hypertrophy training. For 75% of the population, I strongly believe that if you want to GAIN LEAN BODY MASS while losing fat, the low-carb approach will do it better than anything, especially if you’re taking supplements that enhance insulin sensitivity.
-Charles Poliquin

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1138762

I know we have kind of changed this thread from the Anabolic Diet to low-carb bulking, but I still wanna grasp this concept.

In order to gain muscle you have to be in a caloric surplus, so since its a low-carb diet not a ketogenic diet, we can still consume some carbs, it just depends on your definition of low carbs is (say 50g a day, some say 100g, some say <10%). Since we don’t want our protein to be used for energy, we have to increase uptake in fats.

If you are in a caloric surplus with adequate protein and fat intake with minimal carbs then it is possible to gain muscle. I think this falls right along the lines of the t-dawg diet except for gaining mass rather than losing fat.[/quote]

Thanks, Alaw. Your Poliquin quote not only is perfectly consistent with what I’ve been saying, it corroborates what I’ve been saying. There’s a difference between “gain[ing] lean body mass while losing fat” using the low-carb approach that Poliquin rightly prefers to the “bulk up/get lean approach in hypertrophy training.” If one is looking to truly “bulk up,” carbs are necessary (as Poliquin even noted in the quote I provided in my preceding post to you.) The problem is that much of that muscle is lost when dieting to get lean. The “low-carb” approach, such as the low-carb aspect of the AD, is never designed to foster bulking-up. Rather, it’s designed to enable one to stay lean. Smart fats, along with supplements that (as Poliquin puts it) “enhance insulin sensitivity” (e.g., R-ALA, as well as certain EFA’s), help fend off catabolism.

Thanks again for the respectful discourse.

37

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
ghm wrote:
lixy wrote:
skinnymuscles wrote:
Something I don’t understand about bulking on the anabolic diet… if the excess cals are coming from fat, why do they not get stored as bodyfat? By what mechanism is the fat converted into lean muscle tissue?

Fat is not converted into lean muscle tissue. Where did you hear this preposterous claim?

Lixy:

I see from your initial response to the OP that you have no interest in even trying to respond constructively to a genuine question. Instead, you just want to denegrate. You and Eegrm should become penpals, so you can needlessly exchange insults and refine your skill of being offended and offensive for no good reason.

You’re on the wrong site chief. We’re not polite around here.[/quote]

Being impolite is fine with me. But, being pointlessly impolite is another thing entirely.

38

but in order to gain mass, you have to take in more calories than you burn. So you ARE taking in more fuel (from fat) than you are burning each day. So why isnt the excess fat stored?

39

[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
OK, as the OP, sorry I have been away from the thread… I have been studying for finals and actually have a life outside of T-Nation… haha

anyways, I didnt want this to turn into a battle of carbs versus no carbs. I was just asking a simple science question. if the exta cals come from fat, why arent they stored as bodyfat? [/quote]

No need to apologize. You didn’t run into a battled of carbs versus no carbs. I merely stated that the AD (at least the low carb aspect of it) was primarily intended to be anti-catabolic, as opposed to “anabolic,” in relation to your question regarding “bulking”. Then somebody who’s apparently been in ketosis for too long took offense (even though I love the low-carb approach myself).

As to your question, Eengrm, believe it or not, essentially got it right in his last post to you. Healthful dietary fats help you burn body fat, and is more readily used as energy than glucose, which is more readily stored as body fat.

40

[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
but in order to gain mass, you have to take in more calories than you burn. So you ARE taking in more fuel (from fat) than you are burning each day. So why isnt the excess fat stored?[/quote]

Uggh… Look at it this way… if your BMR is 2700 calories and you take in 2400 in fat (265g) and 800 in protein (200g) then you bring in a combined 3200 calories (or 500 over maintenance). You are still taking in less than your BMR in fat so you really aren’t taking in an excess of fat. The 2400 cals of fat go toward energy expenditure and the 800 cals of protein to building lean mass. Obviously I neglected carbs from the equation to keep it simple and the explanation was simplified some too, but you get the point.

Now… if you take in 5000 cals of fat and 800 cals of protein and your BMR is 2700 calories then yes you might gain fat since the excess cals may not be needed. The numbers are highly individual and should be adjusted based on whether you’re an ecto, meso, endo and also your actual activity level. If you didn’t need 5K to gain on a “standard” bulking diet you won’t need it on the AD.

I can take that same question you asked and ask it about any mass building diet by just manipulating the words- “…you have to take in more calories than you are burning each day. So why aren’t the extra carbs turned into fat?” It’s the same idea. On the AD your body becomes adapted to use fat like it used to use carbs- therefore all of the same processes are in place and if you go way over you may gain fat.

To the guy who said earlier that the only reason you gain anything is because of the carb ups- this is partially true. The carb ups have a positive effect on hormone levels, namely leptin and cortisol, so they help regulate you in a sense. I’m sure that has an effect on the ability to gain, but really the crux is you are taking in more than you burn and it isn’t junk food. Of course you’re going to gain lean mass- carbs or not. I won’t reattack the subject of what is the BEST method, as most would agree it’s individual and there is no one cookie cutter answer for all. If you don’t agree then I guess you can remain closeminded.