T Nation

Bulking Cycle : Workout and Diet Advice


#1

Hi everyone!

I'm thinking about starting my next cycle. Plan to start by early or mid-june.

Been working out seriously for the past 3 years. Could'nt do much this year , as I was put off by a shoulder injury, which got even worse when I ignored it initially.

But now it seems fine, and I plan to start again. I'm 25 , 5' 8" tall and weigh in at 190 lbs currently. BF 18-19% (I believe I've gained around 15 lbs of fat, which is why I'm considering the Velocity diet. I hope to drop my BF% to the 12-13% range; Am I expecting too much from the V-diet? I'm not sure)

I've done three cycles in the past.

cycle 1 : sust and deca
cycle 2 : sust
cycle 3 : sust, deca, masteron (was about a 8 months ago). i made decent gains, and shredded some fat, cycle lasted around 15 weeks including pct, which included nolva and pct).

I'm considering a cycle soon after my V-diet is done with. Aiming at lean bulk...

This is how the cycle looks like:

Wk 1-4: Dbol 30mg/day
Wk 1-10: Deca 400 mg/wk (split into 2 shots; Mon and Thurs)
Wk 1-12: Sust 500mg/wk (split into 2 shots; Mon and Thurs)
Wk 3-15: HCG 500 iu/wk (split into 2 shots; not sure when to inject them)
Wk 3-15: Arimidex 0.5mg/ EOD
Wk 11-15: Winny 50mg/day

PCT
Wk 16-20: Nolva 20mg/day
Wk 16-18: Clomid 100 mg/day
Wk 19-20: Clomid 50 mg/day

-Is this too big a cycle, given my situation???

I'm really confused regarding my diet.

My goal is to put on some quality bulk while on the cycle.. (Aiming at 25-30 pounds if possible).

I have a few ideas.. like i would like to be on a bulking diet until i finish off with sust and deca. (until week 12 of the cycle. ) I'm thinking of switching to carb deficient diet after that to aid cutting...

  • I'm thinking of adding 1000 cals or so to my maintainence level for bulking... Would that be too high/low??

My maintainance level is around 2900 as of now..

  • Current diet aim includes the inclusion of around 350 gs of protein. Given the fact that I'd be juicing, can I up the protein levels? (maybe upto to 400 or 425?)

  • Can I drastically cut my carbs while on the juice, from week 13 - 16, whilst on Winstrol? (Not entirely zero). Would that be counter productive???

  • Also, once on roids, do you think its best to up the frequency or volume of my workouts (for ex: doing 2 bicep workouts a week, as opposed to lifting for a longer time for each workout? Any decent mass building routines anyone? I recently got to know about the P/RR/S workout philosophy. Is it any good to try while on roids?

  • Does anyone think that the Velocity diet for cutting is a bad idea/good idea? Do I have to alter the Velocity diet (Up ma nutrient levels or cals coz I'm on gear?) or do I just follow it like that??

  • With all the above factors in consideration, can someone suggest a decent diet for me, aimed at putting on some quality bulk?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Cheers,

Hypo!!!


#2

anyone?


#3

Overall it looks good. Sust could be injected ideally ED to maximize stable blood levels of the different esters. I don't know if both SERMs are needed for PCT and 5 weeks is a little long. Maybe just do 40mg Nolva for Wks 16-17 and 20mg Nolva for Wks 18-19.

I would also consider shortening the cycle to maybe 10 weeks sust and 8 weeks deca and moving the PCT and Winny appropriately for that change. hCG should contribute to an easier recovery.

Also, if you want to keep your gains, I wouldn't change diet too much in the final weeks and especially going into PCT. Just aim for maintenance at that point to lock in your gains.


#4

Thanks...

I finally get a reply. and that too a good one.
A friend of mine had a look at the cycle and freaked out, saying its too long...

I added Clomid and Nolva just to be on the safe side.

How much can I expect to put on from this cycle??

And do I have to start HCG earlier on?/ (from Wk 1 or 2?)


#5

How many extra calories do i need to put on some bulk?


#6

Revised cycle

This is how the revised cycle would look like:

Wk 1-4: Dbol 30mg/day
Wk 1-8: Deca 400 mg/wk (split into 2 shots; Mon and Thurs)
Wk 1-10: Sust 500mg/wk (split into 2 shots; Mon and Thurs) (I dont have any means for storing juice once drawn into the syringe) :frowning:
Wk 3-13: HCG 500 iu/wk (split into 2 shots; not sure when to inject them)
Wk 3-13: Arimidex 0.5mg/ EOD
Wk 9-13: Winny 50mg/day

PCT
Wk 14-18: Nolva 20mg/day
Wk 14-16: Clomid 100 mg/day
Wk 17-18: Clomid 50 mg/day

Does this look good?

ANd do I inject HCG in split doses ? or just one shot of 500 iu/week??


#7

It is for the most part a well thought out and decent cycle. Safe and effective - only minor changes would be made by me, and mostly just a matter of taste/preferance, etc. It is clearly a cycle designed by either someone who has good common sense and the ability to read and assimilate information on this site - or someone who is experienced with AAS.

You are approximately 20% bodyfat, yet you are asking about help with your diet? I suggest you learn how to eat effectively for your goals, before using Androgenic Anabolic Steroids. You will be glad you did.
I am aware that you will not be running the cycle until you finish the V diet, but it is my opinion (and this is all this is) that one should know how to eat to lose fat or gain muscle before deciding to use AAS at all.. ie. They should understand about how many more or how many less calories to eat, insulin management, macro-nutrient ratios and why they are important.. the usual.

Relying on a diet to lose weigt is fine, i have nothing against that - and the V diet is a good (albeit difficult and unenjoyable) way to lose fat. But i do think that a basic knowledge of nutrition is a basic requirement of any 'physique enhancement trainee' or bodybuilder.

It is clear you have either read enough to design a cycle - or had some decent help (this is more than most can do who post cycles here and is not necessarily a bad thing). However, it is a concern that, 1) you are struggling with nutrition to such a degree that you do not know how to eat to lose fat OR gain muscle, and 2) you feel the need to ask "How much will i gain" - which to me suggests there is a fundamental lack of experience or knowledge of AAS here, which is very well disguised by a well thought out and planned cycle.

JMO..

JJ


#8

I used to be too reliant on protein shakes cause I used to be on the run all the time. So eating 'real',solid food was never an issue for me. I used to make sure I had all macros covered. But now, I've decided I'll mix them (natural sources and supplements) both as I have the time to do so. Please forgive my ignorance....

PS:- Thanks for your input

Hypo!!!


#9

Simply for the sake of cycle design, and not on if you should use AAS or not, i would make the following changes:

1) Drop the Deca under 400mg/wk - most find that the negative effects on libido are bad enough with 400+/wk that increasing Test no longer works, and unless Caber is to be used - lowering the Deca will give great gains still - but less negative impact on libido.

2) There is noting wrong with a) storing gear in a sryinge, or b) leaving it in a multi-use vial.

3) HCG injected at equal points EOD, E3D or 2x/wk is fine.

4) Start the Adex from the first day.. you are using Sust which has fast esters in, and Dbol which has a half life of 3-4hrs.

5) Choose either Clomid or Tamoxifen for PCT - there is little need for both, i have read some anecdotal evidence supporting the use of both in PCT, but it just increases the max SERM dosage - and will likely just result in mood swings. I would use just Tamoxifen for this reason.

6) If you dont drink or use any other toxic drugs, then (LFT permitting) i would be tempted to run bol for 6 weeks, have 3 off and run Winstrol for the last 4.

7) There is no need to drop the Deca before the Sust - they both contain the same ester - Decanoate, one Nandrolone and one Testosterone. You will be waiting 2 weeks between the last shots and PCT and using an Androgen bridge. Either run both for 8wks (amending oral use) or both for 10 weeks.

8) It would be preferable to frontload the injectable drugs and run them both for 6-8 weeks IMO. Even after cutting length you still have a good 14 weeks of suppression here..

A decent althernative may be:

Wk1-4 Dbol 210mg (30mg/day) - option: 350mg/wk, 7x50mg
Wk1-6 Sust 700mg (100mg/day)- option: 525mg/wk, 7x75mg
Wk1-6 Deca 350mg (50mg/day) - option: 400mg/wk, 2x200mg
Wk5-8 Stan 350mg (50mg/day)
Wk1-9 Adex 0.5mg/day, tapering down.
Wk1-8 HCG 250iu E3D

Wk9-12 Tamoxifen 40/40/20/20 (mg/day/week) - option: Clomid 100/50/50/50

This is a very effective, short length, high dose cycle. I have not increased the Deca dose, as i mentioned it would be counter productive to do so without a Domapine Agonist.
The options are for higher or lower dosages, ie. you may not feel comfortable with 700mg test - although it would make a hell of a difference to results with little extra negative sides IME.
I would choose to use the 30mg dbol and the 50mg winstrol (per day) personally, but i dont think that 8 weeks of 700mg of orals is too much of a stress for a person - as long as their liver tests as healthy and no APAP/paracetamol or Booze is used at all.
Sust needs to be injected daily or EOD. It has Prop in it.

Brook


#10

Looks good. BTW, you can draw from ampoules and store in a sterile vial to facilitate dosing. Your sust interval is fine, but not ideal considering the prop ester. HCG at 250iu 2x/w is fine (up to EOD at 250iu is also good). For PCT I really think 4 weeks of Nolva only (no clomid necessary) at 40/40/20/20 should be OK. You could always tack on an extra week of 10 or 20mg/d if you don't feel fully recovered after 4 weeks. I think considering the HCG use, you'll be fine with 4 weeks.


#11

I personally feel that 700 is a bit too much for me. But if I'm to gain a lot more with a slight increase in my dose then hell yea! :smiley: (Provided the cycle is shortened. I still wanna be healthy)

I see that Brook doubts me . I am not a pro in the matter... I give you that.And that cycle is not entirely my creation. I did receive some help . But with all due respect, its not like I'm totally ignorant either. I am well aware of risks that steroid use/abuse puts me into.I hope that didn't come off as a display of 'attitude'.

I'm gonna drop the Clomid as you guys suggest. And to be frank I have experienced mood swings in the past.(Come to think of it I was running both of them at the same time).

And I've tried to read as much as I could to improve my knowledge. There was this one time when I actually injected myself with 1000 mgs of Test in one single shot!!! And my diet was crappy, workouts were sloppy. i just used to think that steroids were magic. Just inject them and you'll turn into Arnie somehow. (That was about 3-4 years ago... I believe I've come a long way from that. Hopefully for the better, this time around.)

Anyways!! Thanks for helping me out guys...

Cheers

Hypo!!!


#12

I actually had plans to compete by the end of this year. Keeping that in mind, I wouldnt mind stretching the cycle to 12 weeks. What do you think? Any ideas?


#13

These guys are giving some great advise. I personally like a longer ester cyp or eth for my cycle and I am not a fan of deca either. But the most important part of this cycle is definitely the diet. No offense but in my opinion I don't think that you quite ready for a cycle. 190 @ 20 percent fat is nowhere close. The reason that I know, because that's exactly what I was when I did my first cycle, I was 190 @ 18 percent exactly. I thought that I would gain 30 lbs and lean up and everyone would accuse me of being on the juice. Well after 10 weeks of a test and eq cycle I gained 10 lbs and that was it. The reason why? I didn't know how to eat right. I suggest doing more research so that you can get it right and get better results than I did. Good luck to you.


#14

I have been constantly on the lookout for some good dieting advice which involves natural sources. My reliance on supplements and shakes has left me in this state of cluelessness...

Hypo!!!

PS - I'm not gonna do the cycle right away. I'm aiming at bringing down my BF% to the 12-13% range and then juice up.


#15

Better to do 2 shorter cycles with adequate PCT and recovery than 1 long one. Next cycle you could use compounds more suited to cutting like test prop and tren, maybe masteron and winny. Diet is key as stated. You can stil cut on sust and deca.


#16

Hey Dynamo!

Thanks for the advice man. You have cutting cycle with these compounds in mind ?


#17

Brook is using these compounds now and has a lot more experience than me. Check with him.


#18

I feel that sust "can" be injected once a week (please don't flame me). A lot of people talke about taking advantage of prop ester etc. Organon desgined this drug to be a "sustained release" type, hence the name and mixed esters. The goal was to provide stable blood concertration while minimise injections. I think it is entirely fine to inject this drug at half the half live of the longest ester (decanoate). which is 7-8 days interval. I think E3d or twice a week will create big hormonal shifts. On the other hand, every day injection is fine too. So my take on sust is : ED if you run 800mg or above, or EW if you run lower dosages.

On every Monday, I would inject 2ml of sust into one thigh/glute 500mg, and 2-3ml of norma/organon deca into my other thigh 200-300mg. This is the simplest and cheapest way. But if you are looking forward to inject something everyday, you can inject a mixture of sustanon + deca, approximately 0.7 ml every day. Just keep in mind, everytime you inject, you will waste 0.1-0.2 ml of gear (if you use 3ml syringe) from the sqirting,dead space of the syringe, and oil that come out of your injection site. SO you will have to compensate with more gear, if you want to on the perceived dosage.

I don't particularly like oil based injections, it too slow. I don't mind injection MICRONISED test suspension everyday though, as it's very quick and smooth. Too bad most suspension on the market these days clog up even 21G


#19

While it may have been designed like this - in practice it simply is not anywhere near to a stable release profile. Not close mate.

However one looks at it, the more frequent the injects the better. I am NOT suggesting that weekly injects wont work.. they will of course, but you will get more sides and you will get a less uniform release than more frequent injections..

IF the debate was "Does it produce more stable levels than Enanthate?" then the answer (without actually checking) would probably be "Yes". However, just like Enanthate - it is BETTER to be injected more frequently to keep the long esters from dipping too low, and peaking too high.
Then there is the same issue for the shorter esters.

Meph, go into roidcalc and type in 250mg of sust, once per week over 8 weeks - and see just how much the drug levels peak and fall.. compare that to E3D or ED (totally stable). The more stable the levels, the less fluctuation in estrogen and DHT, and les less sides such as water etc.

Then clear that and do the same for Test E.. you will see it is very similar. The sust will be more level than sust, but not optimsally so. If the choices were 1ml of sust a week over 1ml of Enanth a week, most should choose sust, you are correct - but to suggest that it is optimal that way is incorrect.

Brook


#20

The half life is 7-8 days - making half the half life 3.5-4 days.

What - compared to less frequent injections? Regardless of ester length, the more frequent the injections, the more stable the levels. With a lower dose per inject, and a higher frequency - this inevitably leads to a lower fluctuation in hormone levels.

If you 1) Leave air at the bottom of the sryinge, you can get every drop of oil out safely and easily, as that air pushes into the leur at the end of the procedure, and 2) if you use the correct length needle for your muscle group and z-track, you will get no leakage either.

Not flaming you..