Bulking Above 16% Bad Idea?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t understand why this topic comes up again and again. Why not simply take the word of someone like Shelby? He is more experienced to get people lean as well as big (natty and assisted) than ANYONE by far on this forum (and he isn’t biased in any way).

I believe he wrote an article about this on here some time ago - check it out. His bottom line: not a good idea to bulk at a high bf like 16% . First get lean(ish) and then bulk, then cut some of the gained fat and repeat.[/quote]

It’s funny you say that, because I actually hired Shelby to manage my last bulk, and I assure you he had me up over 15, closer to 20% bodyfat…maybe even higher. It all depends on the individual, and Shelby’s experience with clients of my body type told him that’s where I needed to be to be making optimal gains. [/quote]

I know. I did 3 bulk phases and 3 cut phases under his guidance. I also went up to a pretty high bf at the END of my bulks.

But I’m sure you didn’t START the bulk at 16%+ bf with Shelby, right? I think that is an important difference.

22

My 2 cents.

Most people use bulking as an excuse to get fat and be undisciplined with diet instead of gaining some fat as a byproduct of eating over maintanance. It becomes intentional and defended by “im bulking”. Right now im currently ‘bulking’, getting closer to 15% than 10%. Am i going to stop because of it? No. Am i now going to start force feeding myself? No.

There was a time when i used to train with my older friend from work while he was prepping for a contest, he told me he will write out the best advice anyone could give me if i wanted to train like a bodybuilder. Took a peice of paper and wrote “be patient” on it, 2 years ago and i still have it in my gym bag. Keeps me from ‘culking’.

23

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t understand why this topic comes up again and again. Why not simply take the word of someone like Shelby? He is more experienced to get people lean as well as big (natty and assisted) than ANYONE by far on this forum (and he isn’t biased in any way).

I believe he wrote an article about this on here some time ago - check it out. His bottom line: not a good idea to bulk at a high bf like 16% . First get lean(ish) and then bulk, then cut some of the gained fat and repeat.[/quote]

It’s funny you say that, because I actually hired Shelby to manage my last bulk, and I assure you he had me up over 15, closer to 20% bodyfat…maybe even higher. It all depends on the individual, and Shelby’s experience with clients of my body type told him that’s where I needed to be to be making optimal gains. [/quote]

I know. I did 3 bulk phases and 3 cut phases under his guidance. I also went up to a pretty high bf at the END of my bulks.

But I’m sure you didn’t START the bulk at 16%+ bf with Shelby, right? I think that is an important difference.[/quote]

I started around 15% if I had to guess.

24

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t understand why this topic comes up again and again. Why not simply take the word of someone like Shelby? He is more experienced to get people lean as well as big (natty and assisted) than ANYONE by far on this forum (and he isn’t biased in any way).

I believe he wrote an article about this on here some time ago - check it out. His bottom line: not a good idea to bulk at a high bf like 16% . First get lean(ish) and then bulk, then cut some of the gained fat and repeat.[/quote]

It’s funny you say that, because I actually hired Shelby to manage my last bulk, and I assure you he had me up over 15, closer to 20% bodyfat…maybe even higher. It all depends on the individual, and Shelby’s experience with clients of my body type told him that’s where I needed to be to be making optimal gains. [/quote]

I know. I did 3 bulk phases and 3 cut phases under his guidance. I also went up to a pretty high bf at the END of my bulks.

But I’m sure you didn’t START the bulk at 16%+ bf with Shelby, right? I think that is an important difference.[/quote]

I started around 15% if I had to guess.
[/quote]

Bottom line is, you do what works. Stopping gains because you hit a certain number won’t get you very far. That does not mean become obese, but drawing lines in the sand like “15%” usually comes from people who aren’t all that big or started early with steroid use in less than 5 years of training. Everyone does not have the same genetic base and everyone will not see optimal growth worrying about staying under a number more than worrying about what builds muscle.

25

IF you are confident at being able to lose the fat then it is fine.

26

I’ve heard a handful of times that it’s much harder to put on a pound of muscle than lose a pound of fat. Having never been in the situation where I’ve needed to lose fat, I have no experience.

For those of you who have, would you say that’s true?

27

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’ve heard a handful of times that it’s much harder to put on a pound of muscle than lose a pound of fat. Having never been in the situation where I’ve needed to lose fat, I have no experience.

For those of you who have, would you say that’s true?[/quote]

I just told you that in the other thread. I personally don’t care about being under 10% body fat. I just want to look good and where that is for one person over another is variable.

It took me years to fill out like I have…and a few months to get enough off to sit by the pool in the summer.

28

I don’t think I can ask this without a hijack.

I’ve been trying to self-regulate by trying to make sure the scale goes up a certain amount a week. A few months ago, it was over 2lbs a week; now it’s quite a bit smaller. I’ve continued to get stronger and stayed about the same level of leanness.

If I were to take in a bit more food than I am… to target a slightly higher scale weight every week… would I benefit with faster muscle development?

How do I know that I’m not limiting myself?

29

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I don’t think I can ask this without a hijack.

I’ve been trying to self-regulate by trying to make sure the scale goes up a certain amount a week. A few months ago, it was over 2lbs a week; now it’s quite a bit smaller. I’ve continued to get stronger and stayed about the same level of leanness.

If I were to take in a bit more food than I am… to target a slightly higher scale weight every week… would I benefit with faster muscle development?

How do I know that I’m not limiting myself?[/quote]

That is where the trial and error comes in.

Here’s the deal…most of these guys will end up somewhere around 180-200lbs on someone of average height. It takes pushing your body out of that comfort zone to really push further than that…and it takes way more time.

I found that there were many times in my training that eating more (especially in light of less sleep) did help me compensate…but this lies at the mercy of your genetic metabolism as well which has the final say-so in how much muscle you can gain.

Simply put, your body goes through periods of supercompensation where it may gain a “large” amount in a short period of time and then slow down in gains for weeks after or days. The guys who see their bodies as static “calculators” will miss out on that.

30

But as long as I do ab work – situps, leg raises – I should stay lean, right?

(kidding)

So, related followup question:

“Noob gains” are often described in terms of a time period… the first 12-18 training months or whatever. If I were to underfeed myself for the first year, and then finally work on my diet, would I be missing out on these gains? Or are these gains actually more related to total muscle mass rather than to “time spent training”?

Or, for an example. Would a new 140lb trainee be able to bulk up to 180lbs of muscle faster than a 140lb very strong, experienced powerlifter? (Only difference between the two is training age.)

31

A great thread going here. I have seen many athletes stop bulking arbitrarily just because they hit a certain % bodyfat despite not making the needed size and strength gains to make cutting down worthwhile. If you have not made the improvements needed then something is not on par with a sound program or diet. I concur that by cutting out junk, booze and cheats, adding in some cardio, you can stay within a decent and healthy % bodyfat while making steady gains year round.

32

[quote]La Crosse Grad wrote:
A great thread going here. I have seen many athletes stop bulking arbitrarily just because they hit a certain % bodyfat despite not making the needed size and strength gains to make cutting down worthwhile. If you have not made the improvements needed then something is not on par with a sound program or diet. I concur that by cutting out junk, booze and cheats, adding in some cardio, you can stay within a decent and healthy % bodyfat while making steady gains year round.[/quote]

I guess it sounds kind of obvious, but just to clarify… you’re implying that if the strength and/or size gains are still improving, then you’re eating enough?

And that if things begin to stall, then you need to consider eating more? (Along with many other factors.)

33

@ LoRez
you are young, smart, willing to learn. Add patience and you will get ahead within your gene range. My 28 years old nephew has been training for 10 years. He added 40 pounds of muscles without bulking. He is 5 9 and laughs about guys injuring themselves trying the fast approach.
Well, ask for a refund if it is worthless.
All the best!

34

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]La Crosse Grad wrote:
A great thread going here. I have seen many athletes stop bulking arbitrarily just because they hit a certain % bodyfat despite not making the needed size and strength gains to make cutting down worthwhile. If you have not made the improvements needed then something is not on par with a sound program or diet. I concur that by cutting out junk, booze and cheats, adding in some cardio, you can stay within a decent and healthy % bodyfat while making steady gains year round.[/quote]

I guess it sounds kind of obvious, but just to clarify… you’re implying that if the strength and/or size gains are still improving, then you’re eating enough?

And that if things begin to stall, then you need to consider eating more? (Along with many other factors.)[/quote]

Yes. And like you asked before, it’s MUCH easier to lose a pound of fat than it is to gain a pound of muscle.

As long as you are consistently making progress in some way, you’re doing it right. Is that optimal? Who knows, because everybody is different. It comes down to getting to know YOUR OWN BODY because you will know what works and what doesn’t.

If your lifts are not going up after a week or two, you might want to add an extra 100-200 calories to your diet or increase the amount of recovery.

35

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t understand why this topic comes up again and again. Why not simply take the word of someone like Shelby? He is more experienced to get people lean as well as big (natty and assisted) than ANYONE by far on this forum (and he isn’t biased in any way).

I believe he wrote an article about this on here some time ago - check it out. His bottom line: not a good idea to bulk at a high bf like 16% . First get lean(ish) and then bulk, then cut some of the gained fat and repeat.[/quote]

It’s funny you say that, because I actually hired Shelby to manage my last bulk, and I assure you he had me up over 15, closer to 20% bodyfat…maybe even higher. It all depends on the individual, and Shelby’s experience with clients of my body type told him that’s where I needed to be to be making optimal gains. [/quote]

I know. I did 3 bulk phases and 3 cut phases under his guidance. I also went up to a pretty high bf at the END of my bulks.

But I’m sure you didn’t START the bulk at 16%+ bf with Shelby, right? I think that is an important difference.[/quote]

I started around 15% if I had to guess.
[/quote]

Damnit, you can’t let it go, can you? haha

36

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Bottom line is, you do what works. Stopping gains because you hit a certain number won’t get you very far. That does not mean become obese, but drawing lines in the sand like “15%” usually comes from people who aren’t all that big or started early with steroid use in less than 5 years of training. Everyone does not have the same genetic base and everyone will not see optimal growth worrying about staying under a number more than worrying about what builds muscle.
[/quote]

Yeah, that is quite true but in all of this one has to realize that this advice is pretty vague for BEGINNERS. They typically fuck it up and gain too much fat too soon, often due the well-known psychological factors.

I made that mistake in the beginning as many others and I REALLY regret it. Perhaps some more restrictive rules when it comes to bulking, while not perfect, would prevent this from happening.

PS: Anyway, WHO on here recalls the ANIMAL ads when they started? When I started lifting I ordered their “training manual” or so and followed their classic advice for beginners: “Eat a lot of food. And then eat some MORE. And when you are full, eat MOOOAR!” Haha, that shit was AWESEOME. And it worked kinda until I got fat.

37

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Bottom line is, you do what works. Stopping gains because you hit a certain number won’t get you very far. That does not mean become obese, but drawing lines in the sand like “15%” usually comes from people who aren’t all that big or started early with steroid use in less than 5 years of training. Everyone does not have the same genetic base and everyone will not see optimal growth worrying about staying under a number more than worrying about what builds muscle.
[/quote]

Yeah, that is quite true but in all of this one has to realize that this advice is pretty vague for BEGINNERS. They typically fuck it up and gain too much fat too soon, often due the well-known psychological factors.

I made that mistake in the beginning as many others and I REALLY regret it. Perhaps some more restrictive rules when it comes to bulking, while not perfect, would prevent this from happening.

PS: Anyway, WHO on here recalls the ANIMAL ads when they started? When I started lifting I ordered their “training manual” or so and followed their classic advice for beginners: “Eat a lot of food. And then eat some MORE. And when you are full, eat MOOOAR!” Haha, that shit was AWESEOME. And it worked kinda until I got fat.[/quote]

You wouldn’t know your own limits if that hadn’t happened. I know what I can get away with…because I tried. I know it takes a shit load of food and a long time fr me to gain a lot of fat but not that long to lose it…which is why I bulked up like I did.

I was a skinny kid naturally. If you gain fat easily and can’t lose it, obviously you should be tighter with your diet.

The problem is people giving blanket advice for EVERYBODY. That isn’t bodybuilding.

38

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t understand why this topic comes up again and again. Why not simply take the word of someone like Shelby? He is more experienced to get people lean as well as big (natty and assisted) than ANYONE by far on this forum (and he isn’t biased in any way).

I believe he wrote an article about this on here some time ago - check it out. His bottom line: not a good idea to bulk at a high bf like 16% . First get lean(ish) and then bulk, then cut some of the gained fat and repeat.[/quote]

It’s funny you say that, because I actually hired Shelby to manage my last bulk, and I assure you he had me up over 15, closer to 20% bodyfat…maybe even higher. It all depends on the individual, and Shelby’s experience with clients of my body type told him that’s where I needed to be to be making optimal gains. [/quote]

I know. I did 3 bulk phases and 3 cut phases under his guidance. I also went up to a pretty high bf at the END of my bulks.

But I’m sure you didn’t START the bulk at 16%+ bf with Shelby, right? I think that is an important difference.[/quote]

I started around 15% if I had to guess.
[/quote]

Damnit, you can’t let it go, can you? haha[/quote]

ha, I just answered your question!

Here’s the thing everyone seems to neglect. 15% bodyfat on a 190lb frame is MUCH different than 15% on a 230lb frame. As folks build up more lean mass, 15% bodyfat means MORE bodyfat, so it’s generally advisable for them to keep themselves down closer to 10% (like off-season pros). However, consider the skinny fat newb start at 15%. That is significantly less bodyfat on his frame and he should absolutely be thinking about eating a caloric surplus and adding some size to his frame.

Anyway, this is why tracking body comp in such an OCD manner is pretty retarded. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure Shelby has never actually had his bodyfat measured at any point. No one cares what that number is on stage, just what you look like. Was Phil Heath 5%? 7%? Who gives a shit? Would knowing that number change anything?

39

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t understand why this topic comes up again and again. Why not simply take the word of someone like Shelby? He is more experienced to get people lean as well as big (natty and assisted) than ANYONE by far on this forum (and he isn’t biased in any way).

I believe he wrote an article about this on here some time ago - check it out. His bottom line: not a good idea to bulk at a high bf like 16% . First get lean(ish) and then bulk, then cut some of the gained fat and repeat.[/quote]

It’s funny you say that, because I actually hired Shelby to manage my last bulk, and I assure you he had me up over 15, closer to 20% bodyfat…maybe even higher. It all depends on the individual, and Shelby’s experience with clients of my body type told him that’s where I needed to be to be making optimal gains. [/quote]

I know. I did 3 bulk phases and 3 cut phases under his guidance. I also went up to a pretty high bf at the END of my bulks.

But I’m sure you didn’t START the bulk at 16%+ bf with Shelby, right? I think that is an important difference.[/quote]

I started around 15% if I had to guess.
[/quote]

Damnit, you can’t let it go, can you? haha[/quote]

ha, I just answered your question!

Here’s the thing everyone seems to neglect. 15% bodyfat on a 190lb frame is MUCH different than 15% on a 230lb frame. As folks build up more lean mass, 15% bodyfat means MORE bodyfat, so it’s generally advisable for them to keep themselves down closer to 10% (like off-season pros). However, consider the skinny fat newb start at 15%. That is significantly less bodyfat on his frame and he should absolutely be thinking about eating a caloric surplus and adding some size to his frame. [/quote]

I’ve said this many times before. Someone weighing 260lbs at 15% is going to look really fucking impressive. I am not sure everyone understands this.

40

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

The problem is people giving blanket advice for EVERYBODY. That isn’t bodybuilding.[/quote]

This.