T Nation

Bulk Cycle - Stack Advice Needed

Hey guys. I’m currently planning my next bulk cycle and was debating on what compounds to run. I’ve been cruising on 250mg of test (I know that’s more of a mini blast but bloods and bp are In check).

So option A) 1 gram of test with 50mg dbol kickstart for 4-6 weeks

Option B) is to run 500mg test with 350 tren and 50mg dbol for 4-6 weeks. .

This was my start as a natty. I know I look chubby lol but I had just got in a car accident and was out the game for 6 months.

I ran tren my last cycle as a cut and loved it. Got strong as fuck and melted body fat. However since this is a bulk cycle I am considering running a fat test cycle with the dbol to put on a lot of mass and save the tren for my next cut.

This is me currently while cruising on 250 test @ about 190lbs. Not sure of bf tbh

This was me about 3 weeks from the end of my tren cycle where I ran 250 test 500 tren.
Was around 200 here.

I would like to bulk to around 210-215 and then cruise for a while again and then cut. What do you guys think? Should I just add some tren into my bulk and lower the test dose or what? All answers are appreciated!

What kind of calorie deficit where you in last cycle, how long did you run it? Also I’m assuming no cardio was in your routine beings tren kills cardio.

I don’t recommend bulking, there is no point. You are just going to gain a lot of water and fat, and look bloated. You are sitting at a good BF percentage, now maintain it. If you are eating enough to feel good in the gym and have good energy levels why change anything? If not, then up the calories until you are at a happy medium and again, maintain it.

As for your cycle, do not pin 1g of test per week. That’s overkill. If you are dead set on upping your test dose, I would stay in the 600-700mg for now. Dbol for a kickstart? Sure why not. Bulking compounds are subjective and everyone likes different things. I would cool it on the tren and maybe look at other stuff. EQ has been pretty good in my experience but you’re running longer cycles here. You can also look at Deca but i’ve never dipped my toes in that pond for a multitude of reasons.

I was in a 500 calorie deficit and still making massive strength gains. Sometimes 1000 but I didn’t want to lose weight too quickly. My main goals for this cycle is to gain a lot of mass and strength so when I do cut down again I’ll have a nice leaner physique at aroun 200ish of all goes right.

I did do some cardio on tren. Mostly consisting of incline treadmill walking which wasn’t too bad. The worst part was doing heavy squats. I would be hands on knees heaving after each set after about week 6/7

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In all due respect I don’t see much of a point trying to maintain my weight during a cycle when I’m shooting for strength and lean muscle gains. Sure that comes with a little fat gain but with a clean diet it wouldn’t be bad. If I were going to recomp I would be leaning more towards tren. Thoughts?

You don’t need a gram of test. Otherwise you’ve made great progress and you look really good. You should be able to bulk with just 500 test. You don’t need dbol as a kickstarter because you’re already on (albeit enhanced) trt, so you’re probably sitting above the normal range as it is. Instead think about using less dbol but for longer. Like 25mg for six weeks or something like that. You won’t bloat as much (or as quickly) and those extra two weeks will help you add more actual muscle vs just water and glycogen. If you know how to eat—and looking at your progress you obviously do—then you’re bulk quite nicely with that cycle and e2 management shouldn’t be too difficult.

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If by bulk you mean eating in a ridiculous surplus, then no I do not recommend, no matter how clean your diet is. If you want to up your food to have more energy in the gym that’s fine. But keep it in check.

Strength and muscle gains are made in the gym, you support this with you diet. If your training is on point, and you are eating enough to sustain it, then you will make these gains you are talking about regardless - especially on AAS. There is no point in cramming food down your throat in hopes of putting on as much weight as possible to then trim it all down with tren, this is not healthy. Make slow, steady, quality lean muscle gains. As @iron_yuppie said, you do not need 1g of test. And I do agree that you should probably lower the dbol dosages and spread them out, you will get more out of it - when it doubt, spread it out.

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You guys make some good points. I will admit I get a bit overzealous as times so I think I’ll stick to the 500-750(max) test range and extend the dbol with lower doses. 1 gram of test would more than likely cause some e2 issues for me as I seem to aromatize quite heavily. But I’ve got plenty aromasin and arimidex on hand. For some reason arimidex doesn’t seem to work very well for me. And I know my source is legit. Has anyone else ever had this issue with adex?

How would you recommend I take my dbol. I have 10mg capsules. 1 in the AM 1 preworkout and 1 at night? I gotta say I do love the monster feeling I get from taking it all preworkout lol. But it might not be as beneficial in the long run

10 in the am, 20 pwo would still give you that kick while also spreading it out enough.

Bloods and BP don’t mean shit, cardiac health is what matters. It’s irritating to see gear users continually say “well my bloods are good, I’m healthy”… my hs crp is elevated (fibromyalgia/systemic mildly inflamed state induced by the condition), it’s strongly correlated to premature mortality stemming from CVD… I guarantee you hs crp, BNP etc are bloods you haven’t taken

However if bloods/bp are seriously off it does showcase you certainly shouldn’t be on

You’ve got very nice shoulders though. I’d suggest/reccomend cropping out you’re face in the second pic (privacy concerns)

If you want to add another compound, anything but tren… or winny… tren is sooooo unhealthy, stick with something less likely to make you kneel over from myocardial infarction or suddenly drop dead from cardiomyopathy induced ventricular fibrillation. Honestly though, test and dbol should do the trick for what you want (210-215)

Nowadays people take way too much, I don’t understand why… but every gymrat seems to think they need like 2 grams of gear when they can achieve almost identical results on HALF that or less. Leave the megadoses to the pros/veterans

If on lower test (say 400mg) you almost certainly won’t even need an AI… on 1000mg that’s entirely another story

Just wondering why you are recommending this? Any supernatural dose of test is inevitably going to lead to higher levels of E2, which should be managed regardless of symptoms appearing or not.

No it shouldn’t, there’s the facet of androgen to oestrogen ratio. There are various benefits that keeping E2 in range with T has (neurological regulation, optimal glucose/lipid metabolism etc). To expect (when fiddling with hormonal balance) E to stay at physiologic ranges while T skyrockets is an unrealistic and stupid expectations. All T metabolites play pivotal roles within regard to bodily homeostasis, and interfering with them can have profound implications regarding downstream pathways fo which can unleash a cascade of consequences.

Think about DHT, why don’t we block the fuck out of DHT when we blast? With you’re rhetoric, clearly we all need to take finasteride to crush DHT because T converts to DHT. Estrogen gets a bad rap, is needlessly demonised by all the gym bros etc when half the shit you’re blocking it for has nothing to do with oestrogen to begin with. Fluid balance is mediated by aldosterone, blood pressure and whatnot tends to be mediated by RAAS functioning. Estrogen favourably modulates the RAAS, lessens Angiotensin II mediated aldosterone secretion and favourably modulates adrenal functioning… AAS induced water retention (while partially oestrogen mediated) is typically stemming from a myriad of other factors (impact on RAAS/adrenals relatively independent of E)… not “oestrogen, crush the fuck out of that”.

It’s been noted in literature that T alone in supra doses has minimal impact on cholesterol, when combined with an AI (I think it was like 300mg + AI) HDL drops by like 40-50%. As messing with T-E balance aggravates endothelial dysfunction moreso than AAS alone, telling someone “take an AI regardless of symptomatology” is dangerous advice. Furthermore, oestrogen is pivotal for nitric oxide release (vasodilatation effect, needed for erections), maintenance of bone mineral density (though with adequate androgen this isn’t as much an issue… though it still pertains significance), joint/connective tissue health is also somewhat dependent on oestrogen.

So to sum it up, why advice someone to potentially throw off

  • lipid pannel
  • glucose tolerance
  • adequate vascular healht
  • bone, joint and connective tissue health
  • erectile function

If you’re going by the rhetoric “because levels are supraphysiologic”, then we need to crush DHT too, and… what about testosterone, that’s also very high… there are negative outcomes associated with supraphysiologic concentrations of all these hormones, particularly testosterone/DHT moreso than E.

The notion of prostate enlargement is somewhat flawed though, if you don’t get it from 100mg test you probably won’t get it from 500mg. Unlike skeletal muscle the prostate is rather stagnant in that no more AR appear to be synthesised in response to increased androgen concentration, AR in skeletal muscle can be upregulated (more synthesised etc)… the prostate appears to have a finite amount of receptors, of which no plasticity is present… hence why prostatic enlargement tends to be so dependent upon genetic predisposition. DHT however is responsible for hairloss, body hair growth… but blocking DHT has MANY consequences (metabolites act as neurosteroids) and the same can be said about blocking oestrogen, our body is meant to function within adequate ratio, don’t throw off/block natural conversion pathways regarding hormones unless it’s absolutely required

That being said, if you’re on a very high dose (say 1000mg test) there is legitimate possibility for oestrogen alone to cause side effects (severe bloating can be induced if levels are high ENOUGH… like really high), tamoxifen would be first line treatment (for say gyno or something), then non suicidal aromatase inhibitors… at a low dose, not so high you crush E2 back into physiologic ranges whilst T is 10x ref range

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@docchem
It’s obvious you just joined 2 days ago with that statement

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Estrogen is highly anabolic. Why would you actively suppress that when you’re attempting to build muscle? Having no symptoms is sort of an indicator that you needn’t treat a non-existent condition. Most guys allow e2 to run higher than normal while cycling or blasting because they are asymptomatic and the fewer variables you are forced to tinker with the better.

Irrelevant, I created an account 2 days ago - not representative of how long I’ve been actually utilizing the forums.

I am quoting @KSman :

Your vitality, libido, mood and sexual function can be trashed by high E2 levels , even if T levels are great. I see so many posts were guys state they have AI on hand in case they get itchy nipples or gyno. That is simple wrong. Elevated E2 should be avoided and lab work should be done. Anastrozole and letrozole are competitive drugs that compete for FT at aromatize enzyme reactions sites where FT–>E2. With the long term following of TRT guys and their labs, we see that E2 management is mission critical. Elevated E2 also interferes with T at T receptors, as E2 is competitive with FT at the receptors, so that interference is unwanted. E2 also drives gene expression that opposes the beneficial effects of T. This shows up muscles and the brain. 10 week cycles are hiding some negative effects, yet the results are affected.”

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And to think you were busting my balls about HCG and saying I was going to kill that kids Endo system with my advice. But here you are are suggesting people take breast cancer drugs for no symptoms.

@docchem
That’s why ksman isn’t here anymore and hasn’t been for quite a while.

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Thats not really a fair statement. The forums got duped by our pretend Dr who had good advice and made more sense that seemed to shun KSman in favor of the pretender. Not saying either was right or wrong, just saying.

I followed both of their advice. Ksman had me crash my estrogen twice and be borderline suicidal while fake endo has me feeling like I won the TRT lottery. #teamFakeEndo

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