Built for Bad: Major Props CT

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
21

Hmmn, I thought SS had you bench and OHP 3x5 and deadlift 3x5 once a week (squat was the only lift done 3x). And you start off with a low % of your true max, so as to leave for gradual strength improvement over the weeks. But CT’s program has you hit a 1RM essentially every workout, 5x a week right?

I don’t know how the math (total tonnage/volume) works out since SS and 5x5 uses weights that let you complete 5 straight sets of 5 reps (pretty light weight?) during most of the cycle or ramping up to a 5RM ONCE week (hard day). I feel more work done and “intensity” in BtB vs. those two programs.

22

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Hmmn, I thought SS had you bench and OHP 3x5 and deadlift 3x5 once a week (squat was the only lift done 3x). And you start off with a low % of your true max, so as to leave for gradual strength improvement over the weeks. But CT’s program has you hit a 1RM essentially every workout, 5x a week right?

I don’t know how the math (total tonnage/volume) works out since SS and 5x5 uses weights that let you complete 5 straight sets of 5 reps (pretty light weight?) during most of the cycle or ramping up to a 5RM ONCE week (hard day). I feel more work done and “intensity” in BtB vs. those two programs. [/quote]

STARTING Strength is designed for beginners, for them to build a strong foundation from performing the big basics. I have a lot of respect for this program. I still use a variant of it with many clients.

As for starting at a conservative percentage… nothing wrong with that, Wendler does it too. If anything it allows the person performing the program to focus on mastering perfect technique on the lifts, which goes with the spirit of the program which is to teach beginners to lift and help build a foundation of mass and strength.

When I started training I used a variation of Bill Starr’s “The strongest shall survive”, which is 5x5 on the power clean, bench press, squat, overhead press 3x per week, one heavy, one light, one moderate workout.

23

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
This program makes me think traditional strength programs like SS and 5x5 variations are really too conservative, at least for body shaping purposes. I mean, 3x5 bench press once a week vs. 5/4/3/2/1 5x a week. They were so keen on recovery/overtraining and emphaiszed compound movements 3x a week yet CT has us doing seemingly double/triple volume via daily workouts. And in circuit/high intensity form!

I wonder why they prescribed so little volume. And minimal upper body development (at least for me). Even madcow’s “intermediate” 5x5 has you ramping up by 5’s and only a light/medium/heavy day three times a week where clearly the body can get results doing heavy/heavy/heavy/heavy/heavy day a week…this should really replace some of those suboptimal strength programs. Thoughts? [/quote]

That’s been my opinion for years and years. Never bought it, although I see 5x5 as a reasonable volume on the big lifts. I have absolutely no problem starting at the very conservative percentages they recommend–I believe that’s a good strategy for beginners to make sure they pay attention to technique and focusing on the fundamentals rather than weight too soon.

I just never liked SS because of the ridiculously low volume. Lots of respect for Rippetoe, I just wouldn’t ever do something this low in weekly volume for a new guy unless I was adding additional work on the end in terms of other exercises (and of course, that’s not really Starting Strength). 5x5 is a much better volume range in my opinion, and I like it more.

24

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Hmmn, I thought SS had you bench and OHP 3x5 and deadlift 3x5 once a week (squat was the only lift done 3x). And you start off with a low % of your true max, so as to leave for gradual strength improvement over the weeks. But CT’s program has you hit a 1RM essentially every workout, 5x a week right?

I don’t know how the math (total tonnage/volume) works out since SS and 5x5 uses weights that let you complete 5 straight sets of 5 reps (pretty light weight?) during most of the cycle or ramping up to a 5RM ONCE week (hard day). I feel more work done and “intensity” in BtB vs. those two programs. [/quote]

I used 80% because of my experience with doing 5 reps (I’ve been able to get 5x5 with about 80% 1RM relatively consistently), but even if its 75%, a 5x5 scheme has about the same tonnage per week. As I said in my post, its about the percentages. The way I calculated it, with 80% of a 1RM in a 5x5 scheme, your lifting about 7% more weight in the course of the week using 5x5. If its 75% for a 5x5 scheme, than you’re lifting about .09% more in B4B (I say about because getting the EXACT %1RM on a bar is not always possible). Of course, going “heavy” and “light” on a 5x5 scheme changes things a bit, again, depending on the percentages…

25

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Hmmn, I thought SS had you bench and OHP 3x5 and deadlift 3x5 once a week (squat was the only lift done 3x). And you start off with a low % of your true max, so as to leave for gradual strength improvement over the weeks. But CT’s program has you hit a 1RM essentially every workout, 5x a week right?
[/quote]

I’m not sure about SS and its frequency, but that would actually make sense for beginners. Also, B4B had 3 WOs in which the “1” set is 100% of 1RM, and 2 WOs in which the “1” set is 95%. One of Wendler’s fundamental principles of 5/3/1 and Beyond 5/3/1 is to start light…allowing for growth over time. I started B4B relatively light for two reasons: 1) I started lifting early in the morning, when my highest TM’s were at night, when I’m ready to go, and 2) I wanted to increase my weights nearly every week, hoping to continue B4B for longer than 6 weeks, if possible.

26

CT,

Correct me if I’m wrong about anything here, I’m just trying to gain a better understanding of the Built for Bad template. Let me preface by saying I want to try it out, and plan on trying it. These are just my concerns/thoughts before going in. Whenever I see a new program, I like to see if it fits within my core principles and beliefs on training before I give it a shot. I’m a big believer in trying new things, with the understanding that I don’t know much and experience is the best way to learn.

On the surface there were some things about Built for Bad that seemed unrealistic. Mainly, the idea of maxing out every day, and the amount of reps one is expected to hit at such high percentages consistently seems like a rather quick path to burnout. Also, assuming that you were working up to a max everyday, but didn’t know what makes planning out your weights in accordance with the percentages a little difficult.

Something that Paul Carter has espoused about “everyday maxes” popped into my head, and how you should be able to hit 90% for a single on any given day. So I did the math, using 90% of a true max as the 100% mark for the circuits and it became significantly more feasible. The overall volume in a given week is very high but not unreasonably so, which I really like, and you will get a good amount of work done in the 70-90% range, with room for progression.

Am I bastardizing your program if I plan it out like this, or is this in the spirit of what you intended? I respect your knowledge base and your work, and don’t intend to offend you. I wrote all of this out so you could hopefully understand my thought process here, and see where I’m coming from with my idea, so if I am wrong, you can hopefully point out where the misstep occurred. I appreciate the time you take to answer all the questions and provide the feedback you do on here.

Thank you.

27

[quote]iclardy wrote:
CT,

Correct me if I’m wrong about anything here, I’m just trying to gain a better understanding of the Built for Bad template. Let me preface by saying I want to try it out, and plan on trying it. These are just my concerns/thoughts before going in. Whenever I see a new program, I like to see if it fits within my core principles and beliefs on training before I give it a shot. I’m a big believer in trying new things, with the understanding that I don’t know much and experience is the best way to learn.

On the surface there were some things about Built for Bad that seemed unrealistic. Mainly, the idea of maxing out every day, and the amount of reps one is expected to hit at such high percentages consistently seems like a rather quick path to burnout. Also, assuming that you were working up to a max everyday, but didn’t know what makes planning out your weights in accordance with the percentages a little difficult.

Something that Paul Carter has espoused about “everyday maxes” popped into my head, and how you should be able to hit 90% for a single on any given day. So I did the math, using 90% of a true max as the 100% mark for the circuits and it became significantly more feasible. The overall volume in a given week is very high but not unreasonably so, which I really like, and you will get a good amount of work done in the 70-90% range, with room for progression.

Am I bastardizing your program if I plan it out like this, or is this in the spirit of what you intended? I respect your knowledge base and your work, and don’t intend to offend you. I wrote all of this out so you could hopefully understand my thought process here, and see where I’m coming from with my idea, so if I am wrong, you can hopefully point out where the misstep occurred. I appreciate the time you take to answer all the questions and provide the feedback you do on here.

Thank you.[/quote]

I think CT said in the original program that it is an “everyday max”, not a true max. In his layer system, you would work to a daily max for a certain rep range every day. When calculating my 1RM for B4B, I took the average for the main lifts, and rounded down (in some cases, taking 90-95% of the average). I figured that would help account for daily fluctuations in CNS and other factors. So far, it’s worked out well…and I started Week 3 this morning.

28

@defender - what type of results are you seeing so far in terms of body comp and/or strength? I am interested in giving it a shot sometime so of course I am curious how it’s going, thanks.

29

[quote]mstorm wrote:
@defender - what type of results are you seeing so far in terms of body comp and/or strength? I am interested in giving it a shot sometime so of course I am curious how it’s going, thanks.[/quote]

The MAIN reasons I’m using it are that it allows me to train all my “essential” movements frequently, and do so within my available timeframe. Previously, I noticed a glaring weakness in that I was unbalanced in the frequency of training certain movements. With that, I’m seeing decent muscular development, but there are three problems: 1) i haven’t put in a full 5 sessions in one week yet, 2) I’m not using any peri-nutrition, and 3) my set-up is such that for the 3-2-1 rounds, it possibly takes more that 2 minutes to change weights…at least it feels like it…

30

[quote]defenderofTruth wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
@defender - what type of results are you seeing so far in terms of body comp and/or strength? I am interested in giving it a shot sometime so of course I am curious how it’s going, thanks.[/quote]

The MAIN reasons I’m using it are that it allows me to train all my “essential” movements frequently, and do so within my available timeframe. Previously, I noticed a glaring weakness in that I was unbalanced in the frequency of training certain movements. With that, I’m seeing decent muscular development, but there are three problems: 1) i haven’t put in a full 5 sessions in one week yet, 2) I’m not using any peri-nutrition, and 3) my set-up is such that for the 3-2-1 rounds, it possibly takes more that 2 minutes to change weights…at least it feels like it…
[/quote]

Do you think peri workout supps are a must for the program? I don’t use any but have been tweaking my diet to try and balance out the performance focus of my current training, and I’m pretty happy with it so far. I don’t really feel like peri WO is necessary at my level, but might reconsider once I hit a plateau or move into a higher volume layer program or BFB maybe. Just rambling at this point… Sorry!

31

[quote]mstorm wrote:

[quote]defenderofTruth wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
@defender - what type of results are you seeing so far in terms of body comp and/or strength? I am interested in giving it a shot sometime so of course I am curious how it’s going, thanks.[/quote]

The MAIN reasons I’m using it are that it allows me to train all my “essential” movements frequently, and do so within my available timeframe. Previously, I noticed a glaring weakness in that I was unbalanced in the frequency of training certain movements. With that, I’m seeing decent muscular development, but there are three problems: 1) i haven’t put in a full 5 sessions in one week yet, 2) I’m not using any peri-nutrition, and 3) my set-up is such that for the 3-2-1 rounds, it possibly takes more that 2 minutes to change weights…at least it feels like it…
[/quote]

Do you think peri workout supps are a must for the program? I don’t use any but have been tweaking my diet to try and balance out the performance focus of my current training, and I’m pretty happy with it so far. I don’t really feel like peri WO is necessary at my level, but might reconsider once I hit a plateau or move into a higher volume layer program or BFB maybe. Just rambling at this point… Sorry![/quote]

I was initially concerned with recovery and “overtraining” before the six weeks are up, but so far, I seem to be handling it fine. I find that over time, I’ve adapted to increasing intensity and workload as programs continue. I did layers for nearly a year (w/o peri-workout), and when I switched to 5/3/1 (with density work after the big lifts), I felt I wasn’t doing enough because I was used to more volume at the lower reps (clusters, in particular). My biggest hangup is ensuring that I stay within the 1 minute inter-exercise and 2 min inter-set limits: I have two bars and I try to get it so that I can minimize time between exercises…which means sometimes it takes me more than 2 minutes to get the weights set…

32

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]bro1989 wrote:
Maybe instead of doing bent over rows it would be wise to do an inverted row variation to give the lower back a little break. Just a thought.[/quote]

It’s kinda hard to had weight on an inverted row to accomodate the 5-4-3-2-1 scheme though[/quote]

I was thinking of using my weight vest for pull-ups, as I’m working in a home gym (no lat-pull). So it could be use for an other pull, like inverted rows. But i have to test it to see if the weight is far away from the one for my pull ups… guess then I could switch the grip, using close neutral grip for the hardest and wide grip for the easyest to make them more even. Your thought C.T. ? Merci,

33

An other question for C.T. (and anyone else of course) : If I’m using the basics of this program, but tweak it to 4X a week, could I use 6 exercice instead of 5 ? I’m thinking 2 upper press : one more vertical, one more horizontal; 2 upper pull : one more vertical, one more horizontal; 2 leg-like exercices : one focusing more on quads, one focusing more on hams. , I think that would make a great balanced program, or is it too much in one session ? thanks,

sampling progs :
1 : DL, snatch DL, sumo DL, SL DL, Pow Cleans, Glute raise, etc.
2 : Bench, Floor P, DB P, Decline P, close-grip BP, W chest Dips, etc.
3 : BB Rows, DB Rows, invert. Rows HP, etc.
4 : heels elev. squats, FS, close stance S or FS, etc.
5 : Military BB or DB Press, Push-press, incline P, seated, etc.
6 : Pull or Chin Up, Lat Pull-downs, etc.

Of course, choose 1 and keep it for a couple weeks in a row.

34

[quote]Phil Rich wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]bro1989 wrote:
Maybe instead of doing bent over rows it would be wise to do an inverted row variation to give the lower back a little break. Just a thought.[/quote]

It’s kinda hard to had weight on an inverted row to accomodate the 5-4-3-2-1 scheme though[/quote]

I was thinking of using my weight vest for pull-ups, as I’m working in a home gym (no lat-pull). So it could be use for an other pull, like inverted rows. But i have to test it to see if the weight is far away from the one for my pull ups… guess then I could switch the grip, using close neutral grip for the hardest and wide grip for the easyest to make them more even. Your thought C.T. ? Merci, [/quote]

I don’t really like wide-grip pull-ups, shorter range of motion means less muscle work and it puts more stress on the joints. However you can use a chin-up (supinated, palms toward you) and a pull-up (pronated, palms away from you) grip to do them. I would keep the grip width shoulder width or slightly narrower.

35

[quote]Phil Rich wrote:
An other question for C.T. (and anyone else of course) : If I’m using the basics of this program, but tweak it to 4X a week, could I use 6 exercice instead of 5 ? I’m thinking 2 upper press : one more vertical, one more horizontal; 2 upper pull : one more vertical, one more horizontal; 2 leg-like exercices : one focusing more on quads, one focusing more on hams. , I think that would make a great balanced program, or is it too much in one session ? thanks,

sampling progs :
1 : DL, snatch DL, sumo DL, SL DL, Pow Cleans, Glute raise, etc.
2 : Bench, Floor P, DB P, Decline P, close-grip BP, W chest Dips, etc.
3 : BB Rows, DB Rows, invert. Rows HP, etc.
4 : heels elev. squats, FS, close stance S or FS, etc.
5 : Military BB or DB Press, Push-press, incline P, seated, etc.
6 : Pull or Chin Up, Lat Pull-downs, etc.

Of course, choose 1 and keep it for a couple weeks in a row.[/quote]

So my program is not a “great balanced program”?

36

CT : So my program is not a “great balanced program”?[/quote]

It is. I’m just not used to High Pulls… Home Gym, just 2 Oly. bars, so here what I did yesterday finaly, to keep it close to the original (kept 5 exercices, didn’t put 6):

1 : Front Squat
2 : Floor Press
3 : Hang. Pow. Clean
4 : Push-Press
5 : Weighted Pull-ups

Is that okay ? I’ll practice the high pull later on some other program, while I won’t be doing a circuit. I don’t have a Dead-Squat Bar or a Trap bar, so I thought front squat could be a good switch. The good thing is that my numbers for the Front and Floor are equal, as is my Push compared to my clean. And I don’t have to put a bench on the way. It’s way easier to manage to weight switch between exercices when some exercices can use the same - that’s why I switched the Military Press for Push-Press (I just go from the cleans to Push-Press, without any weight switch…)
I’m not sure I calculated my Weighted pull well thought… I calculated the % weights with my bodyweight, was that wrong ? Being able to pull 5X with a 40 lbs vest, it put me to 200, so I calculated a 1RM of around 230, then I took 90% of that for a 1TM (like I did with the other lifts) and calculated my 85%, 87,5% of that and so on. 85% was around 170, so just 10 lbs more than BW. was way too easy for 5 reps… that’s why I’m asking. I guess I’ll just play with the weight and see, but will at least go for 20 lbs+ on first set.

Merci Beaucoup Thibs, you guys from T are the best.

Last Q, - What about using incremental weight (0.5 lbs, 1 lbs, etc) and had some each WO instead of addind 5 lbs every week?

37

[quote]defenderofTruth wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:

[quote]defenderofTruth wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
@defender - what type of results are you seeing so far in terms of body comp and/or strength? I am interested in giving it a shot sometime so of course I am curious how it’s going, thanks.[/quote]

The MAIN reasons I’m using it are that it allows me to train all my “essential” movements frequently, and do so within my available timeframe. Previously, I noticed a glaring weakness in that I was unbalanced in the frequency of training certain movements. With that, I’m seeing decent muscular development, but there are three problems: 1) i haven’t put in a full 5 sessions in one week yet, 2) I’m not using any peri-nutrition, and 3) my set-up is such that for the 3-2-1 rounds, it possibly takes more that 2 minutes to change weights…at least it feels like it…
[/quote]

Do you think peri workout supps are a must for the program? I don’t use any but have been tweaking my diet to try and balance out the performance focus of my current training, and I’m pretty happy with it so far. I don’t really feel like peri WO is necessary at my level, but might reconsider once I hit a plateau or move into a higher volume layer program or BFB maybe. Just rambling at this point… Sorry![/quote]

I was initially concerned with recovery and “overtraining” before the six weeks are up, but so far, I seem to be handling it fine. I find that over time, I’ve adapted to increasing intensity and workload as programs continue. I did layers for nearly a year (w/o peri-workout), and when I switched to 5/3/1 (with density work after the big lifts), I felt I wasn’t doing enough because I was used to more volume at the lower reps (clusters, in particular). My biggest hangup is ensuring that I stay within the 1 minute inter-exercise and 2 min inter-set limits: I have two bars and I try to get it so that I can minimize time between exercises…which means sometimes it takes me more than 2 minutes to get the weights set…[/quote]

So my experience is similar to yours - it takes me over 2 minutes to reset between circuits. Between some exercises I can move immediately while others it takes a full two minutes. And I have three barbells in my home gym! When I use Squats in the program is when I have to take a lot of time changing weights.

I have bastardized CT’s program for my own needs. I run the program every other day with light hypertrophy in between. I also alternate an ‘A’ day with a ‘B’ day when doing the circuits. My first lift on A day is deadlifts and my first lift on B days are back squats. The remaining 4 lifts are always the same: bench, SGHP, strict press and weighted pull-ups.

When I run my ‘B’ day with squats it take me 2 minutes to reset weights, bar and pins between the back squats and bench press. On dead lift days (‘A’ day) I simply leave a barbell setup for DL and another for bench press and SGHP. On both days my third barbell is setup for strict press and I simply clean it to start that lift. My ‘A’ day total duration is around 33 minutes. My ‘B’ day takes me close to 40 minutes. I try to simply skip any rest between lifts when I can to make up some of the time difference. I just started my second cycle and so far I love the template. With the changes I made I hope to run the program longer than 6 weeks.