T Nation

Bruce Lee Was the Best Eva!

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
BELIEVE.[/quote]

I’m wearing those right now, not even kidding.

[quote]Brucelee69 wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
BELIEVE.

I’m wearing those right now, not even kidding.[/quote]

You really not kidding?

bruce lee was the very first martial artist to incorporate striking AND grappling.

he also introduced strength training with weights to martial arts. kyokushin used jars and bricks, but bruce showed us power racks and dumbbells.

without bruce lee, jackie chan or jet lee would be nowhere near where they are now.

respect

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
bruce lee was the very first martial artist to incorporate striking AND grappling.

he also introduced strength training with weights to martial arts. kyokushin used jars and bricks, but bruce showed us power racks and dumbbells.

without bruce lee, jackie chan or jet lee would be nowhere near where they are now.

respect[/quote]

Whats also amazing about that is how short a time it took him in oreder to adapt to weight training. He didn’t weight train until he came to the us, he was middle age then. His freind whom brought him over to the US after seeing his fighting skill in a resturant( yes Bruce was a cook) gave him his first set of weights. Bruce Even had a freind who would make obscure weight lifting machines for him such as his forearm machine he used everyday.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
bruce lee was the very first martial artist to incorporate striking AND grappling.

he also introduced strength training with weights to martial arts. kyokushin used jars and bricks, but bruce showed us power racks and dumbbells.

without bruce lee, jackie chan or jet lee would be nowhere near where they are now.

respect[/quote]
How can you believe that?
“Very first martial artist to strike and grapple”
Since when?
Martial arts have been around for thousands of years.
Martial arts that use both have been around for thousands of years such as Pankration.
Martial arts are any martial/fighting system regardless of where they come from.
How can you believe no one else did this?
You could say he was one of the first modern martial artists to do so but that would still be bs.

You also say he’s basically the first ever to lift weights for strength in combat.
Many many people did before him thousands of years ago and at the same time. I’m willing to bet there was weightlifting equipment similar to what we have today hundreds of years ago too so you can’t say he was the first to use special equipment either.

I’d say Bruce Lee hurt martial arts just as much as he helped it since people now think martial arts only ever became popular or advanced in the last 50-100 years.
Martial arts were popular, used cross training and had complex weight training routines, calisthenics and plyometrics over a thousand years ago because guess what? They didn’t have guns or reliable weapons in general to kill people with so they needed to use their fists and bodies in general much more.

Do you really think no one ever took a grappling martial art such as judo and then trained in a striking art such as karate and then combined them before Bruce Lee?

Countless people did and many of them did not even make a special school because they thought nothing of it since it was natural.

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
This whole idea that Bruce Lee revolutionized everything by introducing cross training is garbage. Cross training has been used pretty much ever since people started training to fight in an organized fashion. Thousands of years ago military organizations definitely cross trained. If you use more than one weapon or set of techniques you are cross training.

Modern military for instance was cross training way before Lee was born. Soldiers were taught how to use guns, knives and their hands rather than just one thing. Ancient gladiators cross trained because they often had to learn to use more than one weapon since random weapons were given at times to the fighters.

Any sport with striking and grappling is cross training such as Pankration.

You could argue Bruce Lee made mixed martial arts more popular and opened up new opportunities for it to be shown on television rather than straight boxing or Olympic wrestling. Sure, that’s fine. But saying he may have been the “first ever” is just bs.

There’s no maybe that he was the first whatsoever. In addition many other people hyped mixed martial arts so if he didn’t do it someone else probably would have. Why don’t we worship Chuck Norris to then since he actually made his own fighting league, fought in tournaments and had his own action movies? The reality of how effective his training was is equally questionable.[/quote]

I agree with just about all of your post, except for the last sentence. Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, and Mike Stone all trained under Lee, and were all world champions. I’d say that’s some pretty strong evidence that his training methods did indeed work.

Apparently before he died Bruce was getting big into grappling…you can even see his evolution in his films. Finishes his first opponent in enter the dragon via armbar.

Lee’s physical abilities were on a whole different level to even modern day fighters…noone was faster. If he were born for this generation he would IMO be P4P the best around. All be it in a low weight class.

I like Bruce as well, but there is some craziness flying around this thread.

[quote]OMC wrote:
Lee’s physical abilities were on a whole different level to even modern day fighters…noone was faster.
[/quote]
What are you basing this on? Landing shots with authority is one thing, essentially shadow boxing for a movie is another. “No one was faster” is an awfully bold statement as well. To take a popular modern example, Floyd Mayweather has some pretty fast hands as well, and he’s proven them, many times.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
bruce lee was the very first martial artist to incorporate striking AND grappling.
[/quote]
Do you seriously believe that? When a dude posted a pankration link like right above you? Come on now. Like no wrestler ever said “hmm, maybe if I knew how to punch someone…” I could agree that he helped popularize it, but to say he’s the first ever is stupid.

This is one of the things that I find great about MMA, it makes it harder for people to hide behind shadowy kung fu bullshit(not saying that all kung fu is bullshit), the proof is in the pudding. All these Ninja badass types have opportunity to prove what they’ve got. Sometimes they’re good, like Lyota Machida(Karate Background), sometimes they at least show they’ve got balls, like Ron van Clief(Karate master who fought a prime Royce Gracie at 51). Sadly most of the time they just keep talking…

[quote]No-Gi wrote:
I like Bruce as well, but there is some craziness flying around this thread.

What are you basing this on? Landing shots with authority is one thing, essentially shadow boxing for a movie is another. “No one was faster” is an awfully bold statement as well. To take a popular modern example, Floyd Mayweather has some pretty fast hands as well, and he’s proven them, many times.

[/quote]

Well the nobody was faster quote was from Gene LeBell…if you know who that is, nuff said. Of course there are super fast hands out there. I’m a huge boxing fan and would put lee’s hand speed above any other mortal I’ve personally seen. That of course doesn’t mean thoese strikes you see in the movies would land with authority…the ones he lands on his heavy bag in his back garden, bare knuckle sure as hell will.

The lee from 1970 could not walk into a cage today and put any impressive record toether because he was only developign a ground game. If he had been born to this generation…I think he would have been an unbelieveable force.

Lyoto Machida is putting Karate on the fucking MAP

he’s the new Ryu i swear lol

Gene LeBell is a respectable source. I’ll give you that. But what I’m saying is all the Bruce Lee love is unsubstantiated BS. He was an actor. We’ll never know what he could/couldn’t have been, and to say that he would dominate Urijah Faber or Kid Yamamoto on the basis of a theoretical ground game and unproven striking. Doesn’t that sound like a little bit of logic gap to you?

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Lyoto Machida is putting Karate on the fucking MAP

he’s the new Ryu i swear lol[/quote]

SHORYUKEN!

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Lyoto Machida is putting Karate on the fucking MAP

he’s the new Ryu i swear lol[/quote]

Seriously. One of the most entertaining and skilled fighters in any roster right now.

[quote]OMC wrote:
No-Gi wrote:
I like Bruce as well, but there is some craziness flying around this thread.

What are you basing this on? Landing shots with authority is one thing, essentially shadow boxing for a movie is another. “No one was faster” is an awfully bold statement as well. To take a popular modern example, Floyd Mayweather has some pretty fast hands as well, and he’s proven them, many times.

Well the nobody was faster quote was from Gene LeBell…if you know who that is, nuff said. Of course there are super fast hands out there.

I’m a huge boxing fan and would put lee’s hand speed above any other mortal I’ve personally seen. That of course doesn’t mean thoese strikes you see in the movies would land with authority…the ones he lands on his heavy bag in his back garden, bare knuckle sure as hell will.

The lee from 1970 could not walk into a cage today and put any impressive record toether because he was only developign a ground game. If he had been born to this generation…I think he would have been an unbelieveable force.

[/quote]

lol ive seen thoes tapes of lee’s bag work and his punches looked as impressive as that kid joey from the real world. using ur logic if Gene LeBell said goku from dbz was the best fighter of all time then the whole world should take it as fact. Lee was an actor he used his star power to shine the light on something that already exsisted.

[quote]No-Gi wrote:
Gene LeBell is a respectable source. I’ll give you that. But what I’m saying is all the Bruce Lee love is unsubstantiated BS. He was an actor. We’ll never know what he could/couldn’t have been, and to say that he would dominate Urijah Faber or Kid Yamamoto on the basis of a theoretical ground game and unproven striking. Doesn’t that sound like a little bit of logic gap to you?

[/quote]

Of course its unsubstantiated…he’s dead…thats why I’m saying he could (IMO would) have been the best. I’m not saying he was, certainly not in this day and age wih the evolution of the MMA game to cover all facets. I’ll explain as best I can…

Look at what he did as a martial artist (forget about what you see on screen). His physical training was insane. Few PRO athletes at the time would have been taking things to the extreme that he did. He introduced ideas decades before others decided to use them.

Lee was basically obsessive compulsive when it came to martial arts, so much so that he broke away from his base Gung fu style that he loved so much to find “the truth” as he put it.

Now the main point. Imagine taking a young lee today and walking him into a MMA gym. Applying his unbelieveable passion to learning both ground and standup skills. A scary prospect. That is why I reckon he would have been the best. He had more internal drive than any figure I’ve come across and from what I can tell, walked the walk all his short life…I respect him greatly for that.

OMC, I disagree with you, that’s obvious, but rather than going round and round, I’m just going to say I think he was a guy who’s contributions in terms of fighting philosophy and popularizing fighting are greater than his impact in the ring would have been. On the flip side, I understand where you’re coming from and short of resurrecting Bruce, we’re at an impasse.

Bruce lee is fucking tinny i think fedor or randy couture would destroy his little ass, just take him down and destroy him. but for his weight class who the fuck knows its a different game these days

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
bruce lee was the very first martial artist to incorporate striking AND grappling…

respect[/quote]

BS
What about all the (“pure”) martial arts that combine striking and grappling, e.g. JuJitsu, ~2000+years old.

[quote]No-Gi wrote:
Gene LeBell is a respectable source. I’ll give you that. But what I’m saying is all the Bruce Lee love is unsubstantiated BS. He was an actor. We’ll never know what he could/couldn’t have been, and to say that he would dominate Urijah Faber or Kid Yamamoto on the basis of a theoretical ground game and unproven striking. Doesn’t that sound like a little bit of logic gap to you?

[/quote]

Joe Lewis has also stated that Lee was the quickest (not exactly the same as fastest) man to ever stand in front of him. Keep in mind that Lewis has stood in front of other boxing greats like Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson to name a few. Lewis also won several world championships (both in full contact karate and later kickboxing). So that’s another very respectable source.

Lee was a martial artist first and foremost. Yes, he felt that he could reach more people via the silver screen, which is why he chose to pursue acting. But the guy’s skills were for real. There are just too many accomplished fighters from that time period (Lewis, Norris, Stone, Bob Wall, Lebell, etc…) who vouch for him for me to think that he was just an actor.

How he would/could have done against today’s lightweight/featherweight fighters is as you say impossible to know. I agree with OMC that his drive would have made him one of the top guys in that weight class, but whether he would have been world champ, who knows.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Joe Lewis has also stated that Lee was the quickest (not exactly the same as fastest) man to ever stand in front of him. Keep in mind that Lewis has stood in front of other boxing greats like Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson to name a few.
[/quote]
Joe Lewis is unquestionably the real deal, but keep in mind that the guys you’re comparing him to are a lot bigger than Lee. Lighter guys do tend to be faster.
There comes a point when it is hard to separate myth from reality. The Bruce Lee legend is way past that point, he reaches near demigod status with some.
Anecdotal evidence of his speed combined with the assumption he would have trained really hard is not enough to sway me. I understand what you guys are saying, I just don’t think there’s any solid evidence to support it.
It’s all just way to shady for me. If we had record of him in boxing or kickboxing; or video recordings of fights(do these exist?), there would be at least something to base off of.
My part in this started in response to ZeusNathan’s “1st Ever” post, and OMC claiming

[quote]OMC wrote:
Lee’s physical abilities were on a whole different level to even modern day fighters…noone was faster. [/quote]
The core of what I’m saying is that these statements are wrong, I’m not saying he wasn’t fast, I’m just saying it is too much to claim that his “physical abilities”(note the plural, as in not just speed) were on a whole different level. A whole different level is strong wording. It means there is no comparison, it is apples and oranges, they are on different levels. To take that as fact is silly, and no parade of fighters will convince me otherwise. He finished his post off that Lee would be the #1 P4P in the world. He’s being crowned on the basis of quotes from colleagues and his work ethics. I don’t buy it.