T Nation

British Violence




Something seems dodgy here. I find it hard to believe that the UK has over 20x more violent crimes per capita than Australia.

Also, in the case of SA, I imagine there would be a shitload of unreported crimes.

edit - Just read this part "In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured".


Oh no - another statistic by the Daily Mail (a well established source for reliable statistics), based on figures assembled by the Tories no less. The truth is finally out.

What happens next is that Sifu will come along and blame immigrants and Nulabour (and Guardinistas), and that only the BNP can save us, irrespective of any statistic one might post (which of course are all forged by the government).

Sorry OP, I think I'll just sit and watch this train become a wreck by itself.



LOL, couldn't have said it better myself.


I doubt if even Sifu is dumb enough to buy into any article of that kind in the Daily Mail. Surely everyone realises that paper is comic strip by now?


Perhaps you should take your hand off the throttle and this thread may have a chance but then again we will probably have someone come along gibbering about countries having no national identies or cultures and how we should live in this wonderfull land at the end of the rainbow.


I believe Sifu has made it clear in previous threads what he thinks about the quality of the Daily mail even someone as slow as you are could work that out.


No idea actually. Would you care to enlighten me?


I saw that article. As bad as things are over there I find it hard to believe that the UK is more violent than South Africa. I know people who've moved to Detroit to escape the violence in Johannesburg.

I can believe that aside from shootings the US is safer for a lot of other types of violence.

I did get a laugh at the police spokesman complaining that it is unfair to compare Britain to other countries because of different rules for tracking crime, but then claim that crime has gone down over the decade. Because over that period of time the rules for counting violent crime in the UK have changed.


In Britain they changed the rules for counting murders so that if they have dead body that is the result of foul play they don't count it as a murder until after the killer has been arrested, tried and convicted of murder. If the killer is only convicted of manslaugter then they don't count it as a murder. In the US the dead body is counted as a murder even if the killer is never caught or if the killer is convicted for a lesser charge.

That is the kind of creative accounting strategies that NuLabour has instituted in order to reduce the homicide rate.




I would trust the Tories to be a little bit more truthful than NuLabour, maybe not a lot more but it is quite believable that for certain types violent crime the US is safer than the UK.

I am sure that a lot of British won't want to believe that article is accurate. Even amongst my relatives I find that the British have this delusion that just because they don't have firearms Britain is safe from violent crime, unlike the "fucking Yanks" with all their guns making them violent.

Do tell Makkun, it sounds like you find them blameless. Do you?

There is a reason why the Labour party is called NuLabour. The reason why Labour had to be rebranded as NuLabour is because the last time they held power they ruined the economy and were bringing in boatloads of immigrants and using them for gerrymandering. That is why Margaret Thatcher is seen as such a saviour. There is nothing new about NuLabour it was just a gimmick that the British were stupid enough to fall for because the Tories got complacent with power.

The mess that has been made of Britain is very much the fault of Labour. They are soft on crime. They have always been bleeding hearts who can't stand bad people suffering the consequences of their bad behaviour. The papers in Britain are full of acts of mayhem where the perpetrators are only doing a year or two in jail or just getting a fine for something that in the US would result in the perp doing 10yrs, 20yrs or even life. ie In the US we don't have absurdities of the law such as one punch manslaughter allowing people to get away with murder.

Then there has been the systematic destruction and politicization of the police. NuLabour has made the courts and the police useless to the point that a lot of people don't even bother reporting crime anymore.

If immigration is causing the rise in crime that again is the fault of NuLabour because they are the ones who ended border controls. They do not screen prospective immigrants, they do not take into consideration where they are coming from, they will take anyone from anywhere. They don't even deport illegal immigrants, who have committed crimes, who have been all the way through the legal process and had a court say tey can't stay in Britain any longer.

You are a punk if all you are going to do is come on here talk shit and name other people, then run away.


Okay Mr. Tory/liberal. It is because of you liberals wingeing about the poor souls that had a hard life that criminals over there are not being dealt with effectively.


Thanks buddy. Don't the British come up with the most absurd bullshit that defies all logic?


from: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1331201/posts

"THE MURDER CITY (Compare Glasgow's murder rate to American cities.)
Daily Record (UK) ^ | Nov 27, 2003 | John Mceachran

Posted on 29 January 2005 06:53:52 by Dan from Michigan


Glasgow is the western European killing capital

By John Mceachran

GLASGOW was yesterday branded the murder capital of western Europe by shock new figures. The horror statistic was revealed alongside damning evidence that the number of illegal killings murders and culpable homicides in Scotland has soared while the conviction rate has plummeted.

A report from the Scottish Executive confirmed thatthe number of people dying in violent incidents had rocketed to its highest level since 1995.

Most deadly attacks were fuelled by booze or drugs and stabbings were the main cause of fatal injuries.

There were 125 incidents which resulted in killings in 2002 40 of them in Glasgow alone and 127 people died as a result.

The majority of victims were stabbed to death by friends or relatives who were in a drunken rage.

The statistics showed that 186 people were arrested for the 127 killings. Nine out of 10 werecaughtwithinamonth of the incident.

But convictions occurred in only 71 of the 125 homicide cases, compared to 75 convictions in 113 cases the previous year.

Eight of the killers in 2002 were under 16 and 46 were aged 16 to 20.

According to the report, the typical murderer was male, aged 16 to 29, lived in Glasgow, knew the victim and stabbed them to deathwith a knife during a drunken weekend row.

Yesterday, Justice Minister Cathy Jamieson vowed to crack down on the killer culture which has blighted so many lives.

She said: ''This kind of behaviour and its shocking consequences can no longer be tolerated in a modern Scotland.

''Too many of these cases result when either the accused or the victim is drunk. Most occur at the weekend and involve young men.''

The figures for 2002 showed Glasgow had a homicide rate of 58.7 people per million of population more than twice the level of the other Scottish cities.

Aberdeen was the second most dangerous city, with an average of 21.9 killings per million while Dundee had 15.9 victims and Edinburgh was safest with just 15.6 fatalities.

Glasgow had the highest rate of any city in western Europe, including Belfast, Madrid, Paris, London, Amsterdam and Dublin.

Only the Baltic states' cities had a higher rate, along with American crime centres such as New Yorkand Washington and the lawless Russian capital, Moscow.

Jamieson added: ''I believe reforms to drinking laws now being considered will reduce this potentially fatal connection between over-indulging in alcohol and violent crime.

''On knife crime, we are committed to reviewing the law and enforcement of such crimes. We have alreadystarted work towards that end.''

Willie Rae, chiefconstable of Strathclyde, where nearly two thirds of the killings 81 out of 127 took place, refused to comment.

But Superintendent Mike Dean described the success of Operation Magnet, which seized more than 200 knives in a six-week crackdown centred on Govan, Glasgow.

He said: ''We took in 40 lock knives, 13 steak knives and 25 kitchen knives.

''Operation Magnet has been extremelysuccessful in tackling the carrying of offensive weapons.''

And he added: ''We havealso launched a new initiative which aims to target particular hot-spots.

''At the weekend, nine weapons, including three machetes and an axe, were taken off the streets.''

SNP leader John Swinney MSP said: ''These figures are horrifying.

''Not only are more homicides being committed, but the conviction rate has fallen by almost 15 per cent.

''Scotland as a whole has one of the highest homicide rates in the EU.

''And Glasgow's figure is double that of London and higher even than Belfast. ''Knife deaths alone have almost doubled since 1997.

''These figures leave Jack McConnell without an alibi for Labour's record of abject failure.

''His Executive loves to talk tough on crime, but the reality is they are convicted by their own statistics.''

And Scots Tory justice spokeswoman Annabel Goldie said: ''Unless we adoptazerotolerance stance, Scotland will continue on its depressing descent into more violence, more crime and more human misery.

''This country must be made a safer place to live.''
TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; glasgow; knife; scotland
127 murders - population around 577,869
The Glasgow Murder rate is only slightly lower than Flint which has a population of 124,943 and had 28 murders. Flint and Saginaw usually battle for 2nd place in the state behind Detroit.

Comparison to other American Cities and areas.
Michigan:(Source Michigan state Police)
Detroit - 366 murders(2003), 925,000 people
Grand Rapids (2nd largest city) - 11 murders(2003), 197,800 people.
Saginaw - 16 murders(2003), 61,799 people (2nd in state and higher than Glasgow and Flint)
Southfield(Majority black) - 2 murders, 78,000 people

Other Cities (FBI report, includes non-negligent homicide as well - 2003)
Tuscon AZ - 47 murders, 514,618 people
Denver CO - 63 murders, 565,909 people
Washington DC - 248 murders, 563,384 (Total gun ban)
Jacksonville FL - 92 murders, 776,417 people
Indianapolis - 107 murders, 800167 people
Baltimore MD - 270 murders, 644544 people
Charlotte NC - 66 murders, 668003 people
Columbus OH - 109 murders, 726151 people
Oklahoma City - 49 murders, 521,681 people
Portland OR - 27 murders, 545271 people
Memphis TN - 126 murders, 653,858 people
Nashville TN - 74 murders, 554,888 people
Austin TX - 27 murders, 682,319 people
El Paso TX - 21 murders, 586,392 people
Fort Worth TX - 57 murders, 576339 people
San Antonio TX - 85 murders, 1,212,789
Seattle WA - 34 murders, 576,296
Milwaukee WI - 109 murders, 594,269
There are others with both higher (Philly) and lower rates(San Jose). I mostly stuck with those cities about the same size as Glasgow.

And my "gun infested" (6000+ NRA members) Livingston County - 0 murders(2004), 178,000 people

It's not the guns. It's the people. Else Washington DC wouldn't be worse than Detroit, and Glasgow wouldn't be five times higher than El Paso TX which is about the same size.

Now that's not to say that we don't have our own problems here. Detroit, Baltimore and DC for example all have higher rates. There are several factors in each area.
1 posted on 29 January 2005 06:53:53 by Dan from Michigan"

Also note, guns are rarely used in Scotland other than contract killings so most of these murders are by knife, fist, boot or hand held weapon.

If you live in Scotland either be hard, be funny or be quiet. I went for funny or quiet when I lived there! Most of the hard men never bothered me as I was a clown, they thought I was funny. If unsure I'd just be quiet. Didn't get a lot of hassle growing up.

In defence of Glasgow people they are generally warm, friendly and funny but they are undoubtably tough people and the west of Scotland is a violent place. The world-class drinking doesn't help matters either.

When I visit my parents I always read the local paper. There's always some story of someone attacking a neighbour with a brick or a screwdriver. One funny one was a drunk in broad daylight in the harbour trying to cut a steak from a dead cow which must have floated 7 miles from country to sea over the space of a week or more. Luckily for him the police stopped him.

The romans never did manage to civilise us white savages...they gave up and built Hadrians wall.


I actually have recently returned to the uk after being away for two years, and it is not until youve been away that you realise what a crap hole it can be, and whilst I find it hard to get sucked in by the article and the stats, from personal experience I can vouch for the fact that it is pretty violent here at times, especially in some parts of London.


They do the same shit over here. That's why you can never believe the numbers- they'll fuck with them in any way possible to make it seem like crime is going down, when you can't really tell unless you walking those streets.

Yours is especially fucked up because that could feasibly swing rulings on cases. Unbelievable.


Agreed, London has some real problems too. I worry for foreign tourists who visit London. All kinds of bad stuff goes on in London.


The Scots do have a certain agnst and they keep daggers in their socks. Alcohol is a big part of the problem. It makes people very volatile. Even when they are sober people who drink a lot can be volatile. The Scots really haven't changed since the time of Ceaser. I had a Scottish freind in London who when I mentioned he looked just like someone out the Highlander movie he replied that he was one of the extras.

The British courts also have a completely different attitude to the American attitude on alcohol and drugs. The American attitude is if can't control your behaviour while intoxicated then you shouldn't be drinking or getting high. The American courts take the attitude that if you are sober and you choose to drink or get high you are responsibile for that choice to get high, therefore you are responsible for you actions when you are high because you were sober before you chose to get high. In the American system of justice intoxication is no excuse for breaking the law.

The British attitude is if you are drunk or high and you get out of control you are not responsible for your actions. In the British legal system intoxication is a legitimate excuse. This is also an attitude with the British public. This is why it is quite common for young Brits to post pictures of themselves on facebook or bebo or myspace where they are totally wasted and doing something which they should be really embarassed by. The reason why they aren't embarrassed is because they rationalize it that since they were wasted they weren't responsible for their actions, so it's just a big joke.

Thanks for including the statistics at the bottom. Yay Detroit, we're number one. Detroit can be really dangerous but it is somewhat predictable. If you stay in the suburbs like Southfield which is on the list and shares a common border with Detroit (8 Mile Rd.)then your chances of falling victim to violence are drastically reduced. In Britain even in nice areas violence can just happen, it's not as predictable as Detroit.


Britain is much worse, for politicizing government statistics, even with Obama taking responsiblity for the census away from the commerce department and putting Rhambo in charge.

Good point, I hadn't really thought about it like that before but yes it allows for the politicizing of murder cases. Under NuLabour the police have become highly politicized. If they want to lower the murder rate all they have to do is not arrest anyone. Prosecuters can also reduce the murder rate by lowering the charge to manslaughter or blowing their prosectution.