I was taught when someone wiser than me spoke i shut up and learn so in that case Brook one would have to be quite insane to discount your advice 
BR as always thank you, i’ll go off and think about it, see what i want to do, i shall post on this thread in due course what i intend to do.
Kindest Regards.
[quote] Brook wrote:
Really? Mast is that good in that manner? wow - i am surprised and impressed.
I have been using it in a low dose alongside low dose test (100~200mg of each) for a cruise and it has served me very well… significantly better than test alone - i habe a new found fondness for drostanolone![/quote]
What are your guidelines for a cruise… i take it your “on” all year round ?
Apologies if that’s not the case… do you subscribe to the recent Dante Trudel “Blast and Cruise” method ?
[quote] Brook wrote:
Really? Mast is that good in that manner? wow - i am surprised and impressed.
I have been using it in a low dose alongside low dose test (100~200mg of each) for a cruise and it has served me very well… significantly better than test alone - i habe a new found fondness for drostanolone![/quote]
I have a lot of hope that approx 200 mg/week Masteron (for example 30 mg/day) in the sort of protocol I described could also keep LH in the normal range. That would be sweet if so.
Basically I want to see how high one can simultaneously have Masteron, while keeping free T at the very top end of the normal range, E2 low normal, and still keeping decent LH. If the value turns out to be something like 200 mg/week Masteron that would be a most excellent thing to learn. If I were betting money I’d bet it is the case, too.
But, the max figure achieving that goal might possibly be lower.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Brook wrote:
Really? Mast is that good in that manner? wow - i am surprised and impressed.
I have been using it in a low dose alongside low dose test (100~200mg of each) for a cruise and it has served me very well… significantly better than test alone - i habe a new found fondness for drostanolone!
I have a lot of hope that approx 200 mg/week Masteron (for example 30 mg/day) in the sort of protocol I described could also keep LH in the normal range. That would be sweet if so.
Basically I want to see how high one can simultaneously have Masteron, while keeping free T at the very top end of the normal range, E2 low normal, and still keeping decent LH. If the value turns out to be something like 200 mg/week Masteron that would be a most excellent thing to learn. If I were betting money I’d bet it is the case, too.
But, the max figure achieving that goal might possibly be lower.
[/quote]
That is very interesting. Thank you very much for that insight.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I have a lot of hope that approx 200 mg/week Masteron (for example 30 mg/day) in the sort of protocol I described could also keep LH in the normal range. That would be sweet if so.
But, the max figure achieving that goal might possibly be lower.
[/quote]
Very interesting, thank you! What would you say the highest dosage of Primobolan could be on this protocol?
The highest specific example I know of is 400 mg/week with no use of an AI, SERM, or HCG. Pretty amazing, but the individual, whom I considered reliable though I knew him only electronically, did report mid-normal T after having done the above for quite some time.
I am not saying that that is likely true for most. It might be true for only a small fraction of people that they can get away with that much. Just no telling at this point.
However additional supporting evidence that there is at least some significant testosterone production on this amount of Primobolan is that cycles of 8 weeks or even longer of Primobolan-only at that dose are always well liked.
If T production went in the toilet, so would E levels, and I don’t think the cycles would be well-liked.
That does not rule out that T might drop to the very bottom of the normal range or maybe just below, but I think does strongly suggest lack of total shutdown.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
However additional supporting evidence that there is at least some significant testosterone production on this amount of Primobolan is that cycles of 8 weeks or even longer of Primobolan-only at that dose are always well liked.
If T production went in the toilet, so would E levels, and I don’t think the cycles would be well-liked.[/quote]
So true. People report mild gains, that seem to “stick”, but what I suppose they are actually reporting is that they never really get shut down in the first place so they feel good and don’t even need to really recover.
Now the only thing to decide is if I can trust UGL primo!
Depends on the source. If they are a reputable and solid source who has run independent tests and who knows what they are doing - then yes.
If it is an unknown source selling either known or otherwise products - i would be wary. That is to say, the more well known a brand is doesn’t make it better quality in this game. Sadly.
The trick it to have some sort of honesty based rapport with your supplier. Yes, that does happen but you need to know what you are doing (street smarts rather than pharmacological intellect) and how to approach peeps IME.
I digress… short answer. It depends.
Excellent! Thank you for the answers!
Was just reading through some threads for nothing other than educating myself and when I see BR and Brook discussing a situation I read and digest. With that said recently I came off a pretty strong 16 week cycle and used 10mg/dbol ed Weeks 1-6, 35iu hCg ed Weeks 1-6, 50mg proviron ed Weeks 1-6, and Nolvedex 50mg ed Weeks 1/2, 40mg ed weeks 3/4, 25mg ed weeks 5/6. I then waited another six weeks and then jumped into my next 16 week cycle which I am currently in. My point is I had great success with retaining my gains with this “pct/bridge” protocol.
Reading everything you guys have stated before I wasn’t sure why you mention Masteron but not Proviron as they are pretty similar in there properties and effects and I would say that Proviron is most definitly more cost efficient.
I should make clear that my diet and training are dialed in year round whether on or off as I’m sure most people on this site are as well, but I do think when people start speaking of “retaining gains” that they are the same people who have poor “on diets”, poorer “off diets” and questionable training routines at best, i know I digress a bit but I will come full circle to a point I am making. As an undergrad I was the lab assistant to a very well known PHD/Exercise Scientist (in the newest issue of MD he has two personal studies of his examined and he was part of an antedoctal story in a recent article on this site within the last month so people might be able to figure out whom I’m referring to), anyway as a lab assistant our studies were proposed months to years before all the red tape was cut through and we actually got to the human testing part of the studies. These are double blind with multiple control groups and placebo groups. Point I’m making is without human study (true studies with variables and protocols accounted for) the best we can do is use information offered up by the likes of a BR and go from there. I do not claim to have the knowledge of AAS’s in the same league as you guys, but I do have an undergrad/post grad education in the exercise sciences so I don’t make “blind” comments either.
Just wanted to propose my bridge and how it worked for me and get your feedback on it. Thanks a lot guys and looking forward to hearing what you have to say about this.
Proviron is useless or at least not detectably useful for building muscle, whereas is Masteron is useful for that purpose.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Anyhow, personally I used 15 mg/day Masteron along with I think 100 IU/day HCG and about 0.36 mg/day letrozole and this was really nice. I did not take any test to establish that LH was still being produced in the normal range. I tend to expect it was but have no proof.
[/quote]
When you tried this out, was it after a suppressive full dose cycle? I mean I could definitely see how this would not affect the LH of someone who is currently producing it naturally.
What I am really looking for is an alternative to the long and tedious test-taper. This sounds promising, but so does 300mg or so of primobolan per week.
I want something that I can use that will allow me to partially recover before attempting a full on recovery.
I started it after a full recovery. Can’t recall the exact time but at least 2 weeks since the end of the previous cycle, of which the longest acting substance was TP.
I am not a believer in tapering, or in aiming for a partial recovery first.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I started it after a full recovery. Can’t recall the exact time but at least 2 weeks since the end of the previous cycle, of which the longest acting substance was TP.
I am not a believer in tapering, or in aiming for a partial recovery first.[/quote]
Really ?
Not to put you on the spot, but care to outline some reasons your not a believer ?
Thank you as always
Not really! 
Fingers are done plumb wore out on that one. It’s a frustrating one. The main similar thing is SHBG.
I know the site search engine does not work well and so no one can be expected to find things. Seriously – that is not a sarcastic statement at all. Until I figured how to do it, I continually failed in trying to find things that I knew were here.
Using Google and searching for:
site:http://tnation.tmuscle.com “Bill Roberts” (taper OR tapering)
should do it.
Really, it will be better explained from past attempts than a current effort would do, unless I really wrote quite a lot.
I know you are not a fan of stasis/tapering for the basic reason that you spend time “in limbo” with androgen levels too high to recover and too little for any gains.
But isn’t this masteron protocol you are suggesting getting dangerously close to this level?
I suppose it is different because you are laying it out to use after one is recovered and just wants a small performance boost with no hit to the HTPA.
[quote]300andabove wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I started it after a full recovery. Can’t recall the exact time but at least 2 weeks since the end of the previous cycle, of which the longest acting substance was TP.
I am not a believer in tapering, or in aiming for a partial recovery first.
Really ?
Not to put you on the spot, but care to outline some reasons your not a believer ?
Thank you as always :)[/quote]
Having heard both sides of the story, and myself being sat neither on one side nor the other, but in a different field altogether - let me ask you - why you are so surprised by that statement, and what reason are you a believer?
[quote] Brook wrote:
Having heard both sides of the story, and myself being sat neither on one side nor the other, but in a different field altogether - let me ask you - why you are so surprised by that statement, and what reason are you a believer? ;)[/quote]
Not actually lol, i tend to be a creature of habit 
I have read all the posts on it, it makes sense and i may well try it some day but for the moment me and Nolva have a relationship
Which camp do you fall into, or you sitting on the fence as well ?
edit: Actually i have ordered some Test-E for later on i prefer to be prepared i might tack on another 10 ml bottle and give it a whirl.
[quote]BenceJones wrote:
I know you are not a fan of stasis/tapering for the basic reason that you spend time “in limbo” with androgen levels too high to recover and too little for any gains.
But isn’t this masteron protocol you are suggesting getting dangerously close to this level?[/quote]
It is not supposed to be. It is intended to still maintain decent LH production and thus not be in a significantly suppressed state at all.
I don’t see it as the same thing as taking those same things at the same doses while trying to come out of full suppression.
Not that this would even begin to suggest a point, but purely for illustration: Sort of like how a man already on his feet might stand a given force against him with no problem, but someone that was flat on the ground and is struggling to get up might not do nearly so well with that same force and with that force working against him might be very slow to get back up to his feet again.
Secondly, it’s really the tapering that I particularly object to. If someone has poor natural T in the first place or from experience knows that even with proper PCT and not-overly-long cycle length their recovery is slow, if they want to let levels drop – no taper – to something commensurate with say 100 mg/week use and then use a light stasis, I have no objection to that.
For someone with good natural T and there being no known fact of being slow to recover even with proper PCT and appropriate cycle length and compounds, I would rather see them fully recover that first and then do some light, not-much-suppressive stasis than jump right into it.
[quote]300andabove wrote:
Brook wrote:
Having heard both sides of the story, and myself being sat neither on one side nor the other, but in a different field altogether - let me ask you - why you are so surprised by that statement, and what reason are you a believer?
Not actually lol, i tend to be a creature of habit
I have read all the posts on it, it makes sense and i may well try it some day but for the moment me and Nolva have a relationship
Which camp do you fall into, or you sitting on the fence as well ?
edit: Actually i have ordered some Test-E for later on i prefer to be prepared i might tack on another 10 ml bottle and give it a whirl.
[/quote]
As i said in the quoted text - neither camp. Just what BR said a few posts up actually… a stop to allow levels to drop fast and sharply to achieve the desired level ASAP - then whatever the plan is to follow (HCG, TRT, SERM - allor any mix)