[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Btw, I’m not saying that if you like the stuff you should stop using it as a complex carb.
Only that it doesn’t make sense to me that this branched-chain complex starch is going to hydrolyze super-rapidly to glucose units, that it will deliver glucose to muscle as fast as glucose does, or that it can possibly be both low-or-moderate GI and simultaneously very fast delivery.[/quote]
I gotcha. Im just trying to make sense of it all. Im convinced though, that its lighter on my stomach. It definitly doesn’t cause gastric bloat at larger quantities as say maltodextrin or dextrose did. I also understand that all digestable carbohydrates get broken down by enzymes into glucose which is then absorbed by villi in the S.I, which dumps into the blood.
So if its leaving my gut, its going into my blood (which should raise my blood glucose, making it a higher G.I), i got that. However, it honestly “feels” like i didn’t have a big shake before the workout. I have that shake pre and post workout and am able to eat 45-60 minutes later. With another carb mix, I had a problem with bloating. Either way, thanks for your insight. I’d love to see some more detailed studies done on this.
[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Btw, I’m not saying that if you like the stuff you should stop using it as a complex carb.
Only that it doesn’t make sense to me that this branched-chain complex starch is going to hydrolyze super-rapidly to glucose units, that it will deliver glucose to muscle as fast as glucose does, or that it can possibly be both low-or-moderate GI and simultaneously very fast delivery.
a well thought out answer, as i said i’ll review all this w/ my wife to get her opinion. you answer kind of nails it, but how then have they been selling it as a fast absorbing carb???
[/quote]
same way EAS sold HMB for $90/bottle back in the day?
CT said many times that any benefits of Waxy Maize get negated if you mix it with ANYTHING. It has to be taken on it’s own, because any other food or supplement slows down it’s absorption. So ‘adding it to your shake’ doesn’t do shit.
Did Barr write the article for MD or some other site? I read the same article on BB.com around the 17th as well. From my understanding David is pretty well respected here isn’t he?
Well, on the matter of less bloat (if suffering bloat with glucose) the comparison, where a molecule of waxy maize hasn’t begun hydrolyzing yet, is for each 1 waxy maize starch molecule in solution, at least 100 glucose molecules.
The latter requires more water to avoid having too high an osmolarity.
Not that it’s the same thing or a good analogy, but imagine you have either 100 two-pound animals scurrying around in say an 8 foot by 8 foot room, or one 200 lb animal. There will be more “pressure against the walls” for a room of given size with the 100 little animals than the one big one of the same total weight.
Also, if at a given moment it feels different in the gut than an equivalent amount of glucose, doesn’t that show that it hasn’t hydrolyzed to glucose yet?
And that portion that has not hydrolyzed is not ready to be absorbed. Whereas with the glucose, all of it is ready to go as fast as the body can take it in.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Also, if at a given moment it feels different in the gut than an equivalent amount of glucose, doesn’t that show that it hasn’t hydrolyzed to glucose yet?
And that portion that has not hydrolyzed is not ready to be absorbed. Whereas with the glucose, all of it is ready to go as fast as the body can take it in.[/quote]
Yeah, that makes sense. Hmm, now im just stumped on this WMS logic.
[quote]Aggro wrote:
Did Barr write the article for MD or some other site? I read the same article on BB.com around the 17th as well. From my understanding David is pretty well respected here isn’t he?[/quote]
Yes, he is. As with ALL authors, though, even Dave Barr has said/written things that don’t necessarily make every bit of sense.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Aggro wrote:
Did Barr write the article for MD or some other site? I read the same article on BB.com around the 17th as well. From my understanding David is pretty well respected here isn’t he?
Yes, he is. As with ALL authors, though, even Dave Barr has said/written things that don’t necessarily make every bit of sense.
No offense to Dave.[/quote]
Yeah, I’ve always respected his Barrticles. Hopefully he’ll post some new ones.
I also just read that it may actually be better to digest a combination of slow and fast carbs PWO…it was in the Jan/Feb issue of Mens Health 09…granted its Mens Health but it was…well here it is…
"Guzzling beverages containing mostly fast-digesting carbs might not be the best way to refuel after exercise. British scientists discovered that you can replenish your energy stores faster with sugars that break down at varying rates.
Turns out, glucose and fructose utilize different transport systems, allowing your body to absorb more carbs overall after a hard workout, says lead researcher Asker Jeukendrup, PhD.
Our post-workout recommendation: Choose carbohydrate sources that contain a variety of sugars and are loaded with healthful nutrients, such as fruits and whole grains. For the best muscle-building results, consume 30-40g protein with 60-80g carbs within an hour after your workout."
Granted, none of the information about how this works, but what we can take away here is that dextrose + fructose or dex/malt/fruc may be a better combo…or even mixing WMS with Dex/Malto perhaps?
As fascinating as this is, are we really debating such minute differences here, or is it much more than that? I know folks who get good results with Surge, folks who get results with maize, and folks who get good results with vitargo… and then there’s me with my poptarts with whey -lol. In all honesty, I like the ‘full’ feeling because it allows me to wait an hour before having my real PWO ‘meal’.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
As fascinating as this is, are we really debating such minute differences here, or is it much more than that? I know folks who get good results with Surge, folks who get results with maize, and folks who get good results with vitargo… and then there’s me with my poptarts with whey -lol. In all honesty, I like the ‘full’ feeling because it allows me to wait an hour before having my real PWO ‘meal’.
S
[/quote]
and i’ve done quite well with gatorade powder, leucine and whey. sometimes being poor makes you smart(er).
I thought the wms thing was being used by those trying to eck out every advantage they can out of it being “faster”. So for those people its kinda useless now. Why not just the cheaper sugars?
[quote]Beatnik wrote:
I thought the wms thing was being used by those trying to eck out every advantage they can out of it being “faster”. So for those people its kinda useless now. Why not just the cheaper sugars?[/quote]
What made me give it a try were the claims that it didn’t cause bloating. I have a big shake before and after training, so this appealed to me. It helped alot with being able to train with out feeling sluggish and being to eat soon after PWO.
Try 400 mg of caffeine with some fenugreek about 20 min before taking in WMS (by itself) with a tsp of cinnamon, then wait another 20 min before slamming some whey with leucine.
Ideally, try this after a good workout that’s topped off with a brief HIIT session (but not if you had a leg day, obviously) and ideally have this on a high carb / refeed day, if you are carb cycling. You can start the first phase just before your HIIT session so you end up taking the WMS when you get home from gym and whey right after you take a shower. I mean, if you want to map out the timing of it all.
This technique of really starving your muscles for glycogen then staggering variables that manipulate insulin sensitivity I would think would be interesting. Haven’t tried it but had it written down as an idea…
Do NOT try this if you have blood sugar issues or a history of it.
[quote]conorh wrote:
I know WMS shoots through me like a laser beam.[/quote]
I’ve heard from 2 people that it gave them super nasty gas. The kind that is beyond “funny” to the point that is it socially awkward to have gas that bad.
Try 400 mg of caffeine with some fenugreek about 20 min before taking in WMS (by itself) with a tsp of cinnamon, then wait another 20 min before slamming some whey with leucine.
Ideally, try this after a good workout that’s topped off with a brief HIIT session (but not if you had a leg day, obviously) and ideally have this on a high carb / refeed day, if you are carb cycling. You can start the first phase just before your HIIT session so you end up taking the WMS when you get home from gym and whey right after you take a shower. I mean, if you want to map out the timing of it all.
This technique of really starving your muscles for glycogen then staggering variables that manipulate insulin sensitivity I would think would be interesting. Haven’t tried it but had it written down as an idea…
Do NOT try this if you have blood sugar issues or a history of it.[/quote]
So you want me to be your guinea pig? lol. Sounds well thought out. Luckily, I’ve been very fortunate with my BF as of late. I bulked up into the 220’s eating 800-900 carbs a day. Now Im cutting down for summer time, I figured I’d do it nice and slowly. I should see better results this way. I still have my 25grams Whey & 80-100grams WMS PRE and POST workout. Im eating about 450 carbs daily, everyday. Im already down to 204 in two weeks (although I would rather come down slower) and much leaner.
