T Nation

Brand Spankin' Old!

I hope to not be flamed for this post, but I gotta tell ya… I’m gonna take my chances, because I don’t know where else to turn for “correct” information.

Ok, first… I am 47… male, 5’9" and weigh 200… I carry it okay clothed… but suffer from a soft midsection… and skinny limbs… my test. levels suck… 200… and was put on test cyp injections and androgel 1mg. I have decided finally in my life to pick up the pieces and make something of this hrt… rather than just testosterone.

I have no idea what to dose… Dr… recommended 200mg test cyp e2wks. I have been doing 300wk for three. The androgel was just added. I haven’t even used it yet. I have started exercising with resistance… curl bar… and even prior… noticed losing just a tad of belly fat within 10 days of hrt.

My questions are… dose? diet? and training? I am not trying to enter a contest… I just want to look good again in a bathing suit and feel healthy. My schedule doesnt permit the greatest of diets nor exercise… but I am going to spend more time on myself…

Your advice would be sincerely appreciated… truly…

I will get to the before and after pics at some pt. soon… well the “before” at least.

regards…

jet!

ps… i am otherwise healthy.

You should inject 100mg every week. Many end up feeling like crap and are better off injecting twice a week or more.

Do you have blood work levels for E2? That can be important. Keep copies of all of your blood work.

Adrogel cannot be 1mg… to little of anything.

It can take 3 or 4 weeks for the effects of the TRT to kick in.

You may need to do something to control your E2 levels (estradiol). That can climb during TRT. Sounds like you are carrying a lot of body fat, and the fat tissue is where most of the aromatization of T–>E occurs. So this is a risk for you. Transdermal T also leads to higher levels of E than injected. Aromatase inhibitors (AI) such can be used to lower your E levels. Arimidex/anastrozole works very well, typically the TRT dose of that is 1mg/wk, but it is not cheap and insurance may not cover that.

To loose weight, use the T to gain some muscle. The muscle burns calories 24x7. If you work your muscles and start to get gains, if you start to get new and intense hunger, your muscles are growing and starving for protein. Between meal snacks should be protein, whey protein shakes would be idea.

Did you get cholesterol checked. If high, it might drop nicely as the T gets to work. Fasting blood sugar ok?

TRT will make your testicles shrink. Some will feel an ache in their testes 24/7 with the shrinkage. The scrotum will pull up tight. Another injectable, a peptide hormone, HCG, will keep the testes working and feeling good. It is more than a fertility issue, it is a QOL issue. Typical dose is 250iu SQ (under the skin - like insulin) twice a week, but 250iu SQ EOD is supported by research to be better, but many docs do not understand this dose or HCG at all.

The best way to go is TRT+AI+HCG.

Are you self injecting? Any questions about that?

READ READ READ!!! You’ll get a shitload of opinions when ya throw out a question like this. Rainjack and I agreed on another thread that we are sorta burned by the questions that come up like this. Not flamin’ ya, but your health is in your hands, and taking an opinion is sorta like taking the easy way out. And potentially dangerous. Read published articles, read research, and use GOOD judgement. The post above mine is a good one, but it all comes down to you.

All the gear is not going to make a lot of differenc if you do not understand 2 things:

  1. What you put in your mouth is THE most important for body composition (muscle vs fat)

  2. The training style you follow will dictate how many of the calories you ingest go into muscle vs burn you out.

I am not in HRT or heavy gear cycles. There are more experienced guys here for that. However as we approach the “older” age food, cardio and flexibility become paramount.

Like others have mentioned, use the search engine here and look for John Berardi’s articles. That will give you a general idea of sound dietary advice. In particular read the “10 principles” article. Put in in practice and get into the routine of recording what you do during the day, what you eat, when you eat it and how you feel.

This information will be valuable to you when you start making changes to your lifestyle and want to compare testing different protocols on your body.

Hope this helps

[quote]KSman wrote:
You should inject 100mg every week. Many end up feeling like crap and are better off injecting twice a week or more.

Is 100mg enough for gains?

Do you have blood work levels for E2? That can be important. Keep copies of all of your blood work.

I don’t have blood work levels for E2 but will request next visit.

Adrogel cannot be 1mg… to little of anything.

Sorry, It is 5mg (1% gel).

It can take 3 or 4 weeks for the effects of the TRT to kick in.

You may need to do something to control your E2 levels (estradiol). That can climb during TRT. Sounds like you are carrying a lot of body fat, and the fat tissue is where most of the aromatization of T–>E occurs. So this is a risk for you. Transdermal T also leads to higher levels of E than injected. Aromatase inhibitors (AI) such can be used to lower your E levels. Arimidex/anastrozole works very well, typically the TRT dose of that is 1mg/wk, but it is not cheap and insurance may not cover that.

Concerned that my Uro who prescribed the test. may not prescribe? Where can look for alternative sources?

To loose weight, use the T to gain some muscle. The muscle burns calories 24x7. If you work your muscles and start to get gains, if you start to get new and intense hunger, your muscles are growing and starving for protein. Between meal snacks should be protein, whey protein shakes would be idea.

This seems to be the best advice I have been finding regarding fat burning.

Did you get cholesterol checked. If high, it might drop nicely as the T gets to work. Fasting blood sugar ok?

Cholesterol was a little high, doc said nothing to worry about. Fasting blood sugar was ok.

TRT will make your testicles shrink. Some will feel an ache in their testes 24/7 with the shrinkage. The scrotum will pull up tight. Another injectable, a peptide hormone, HCG, will keep the testes working and feeling good. It is more than a fertility issue, it is a QOL issue. Typical dose is 250iu SQ (under the skin - like insulin) twice a week, but 250iu SQ EOD is supported by research to be better, but many docs do not understand this dose or HCG at all.

No shrinkage noticed yet, but I will be vigilant. Again, not sure my URO doc will prescribe… the HCG… aware of alternatice sources? What about homeopathic of these drugs?
The best way to go is TRT+AI+HCG.

Are you self injecting? Any questions about that?

Yes… 1" 23 ga. was om 22ga but pharmacy was out. Originally given 25 ga. that was fun :frowning: NOT! Don’t seem to be having problems injecting.
[/quote]

Thank you so much for your response. It was very informative and will cause me to read much more as I continue my journey. You are kind and were generous with your time. Thank you.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
KSman makes a good post above. The only thing I would say is that once you factor in the ester weight with test cyp, 100mg /wk is only going to come out to around 60-70mg, which is a pretty small dose, even for TRT.

Bushy[/quote]

I was thinking the same Bushy… I don’t want to waste my time, but I also don’t want to overdo it… do you have a suggested dosage? Thanks… Jet

[quote]Time2Jet wrote:
KSman wrote:
You should inject 100mg every week. Many end up feeling like crap and are better off injecting twice a week or more.

Is 100mg enough for gains?

You mentioned that many end up feeling like crap? By crap, what do you mean… and why? Thanks again… Jet

Do you have blood work levels for E2? That can be important. Keep copies of all of your blood work.

I don’t have blood work levels for E2 but will request next visit.

Adrogel cannot be 1mg… to little of anything.

Sorry, It is 5mg (1% gel).

It can take 3 or 4 weeks for the effects of the TRT to kick in.

You may need to do something to control your E2 levels (estradiol). That can climb during TRT. Sounds like you are carrying a lot of body fat, and the fat tissue is where most of the aromatization of T–>E occurs. So this is a risk for you. Transdermal T also leads to higher levels of E than injected. Aromatase inhibitors (AI) such can be used to lower your E levels. Arimidex/anastrozole works very well, typically the TRT dose of that is 1mg/wk, but it is not cheap and insurance may not cover that.

Concerned that my Uro who prescribed the test. may not prescribe? Where can look for alternative sources?

To loose weight, use the T to gain some muscle. The muscle burns calories 24x7. If you work your muscles and start to get gains, if you start to get new and intense hunger, your muscles are growing and starving for protein. Between meal snacks should be protein, whey protein shakes would be idea.

This seems to be the best advice I have been finding regarding fat burning.

Did you get cholesterol checked. If high, it might drop nicely as the T gets to work. Fasting blood sugar ok?

Cholesterol was a little high, doc said nothing to worry about. Fasting blood sugar was ok.

TRT will make your testicles shrink. Some will feel an ache in their testes 24/7 with the shrinkage. The scrotum will pull up tight. Another injectable, a peptide hormone, HCG, will keep the testes working and feeling good. It is more than a fertility issue, it is a QOL issue. Typical dose is 250iu SQ (under the skin - like insulin) twice a week, but 250iu SQ EOD is supported by research to be better, but many docs do not understand this dose or HCG at all.

No shrinkage noticed yet, but I will be vigilant. Again, not sure my URO doc will prescribe… the HCG… aware of alternatice sources? What about homeopathic of these drugs?
The best way to go is TRT+AI+HCG.

Are you self injecting? Any questions about that?

Yes… 1" 23 ga. was om 22ga but pharmacy was out. Originally given 25 ga. that was fun :frowning: NOT! Don’t seem to be having problems injecting.

Thank you so much for your response. It was very informative and will cause me to read much more as I continue my journey. You are kind and were generous with your time. Thank you.

[/quote]

[quote]sawadeekrob wrote:
All the gear is not going to make a lot of differenc if you do not understand 2 things:

  1. What you put in your mouth is THE most important for body composition (muscle vs fat)

  2. The training style you follow will dictate how many of the calories you ingest go into muscle vs burn you out.

I am not in HRT or heavy gear cycles. There are more experienced guys here for that. However as we approach the “older” age food, cardio and flexibility become paramount.

Like others have mentioned, use the search engine here and look for John Berardi’s articles. That will give you a general idea of sound dietary advice. In particular read the “10 principles” article. Put in in practice and get into the routine of recording what you do during the day, what you eat, when you eat it and how you feel.

This information will be valuable to you when you start making changes to your lifestyle and want to compare testing different protocols on your body.

Hope this helps[/quote]

Thanks a million! I did take the time to read the 10 Principles and will continue reading… I will update you on my diet once I get a little deeper into this… like I menitoned, I am brand spankin’ old! at this :stuck_out_tongue: Thanks again- Jet

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Thanks Bushy… I guess my definition of overdoing it would be gyno, hairloss, blood pressure… testes shrinkage… overwhelming aggressivness… I certainly am not having these symptoms at this time … but I am injecting 300mg cyp./wk and using 5mg androgel daily. Hope this is responsive. Thanks… Jet

[quote]Time2Jet wrote:
Thanks Bushy… I guess my definition of overdoing it would be gyno, hair-loss, blood pressure… testes shrinkage… overwhelming aggressiveness… I certainly am not having these symptoms at this time … but I am injecting 300mg cyp./wk and using 5mg androgel daily. Hope this is responsive. Thanks… Jet[/quote]

Most on TRT will get shrinkage at 100mg/wk.
Aggressiveness from gear is mostly a myth.
Gyno depends on the person with great variations.

Thank you everyone for your input… I have taken what you have given and studied further each day.

I have another pressing issue to throw out…

I feel like hell. Period. Test Cyp. 200mg/wk and Androgel 5mg daily. Lifting and high protein diet. Low carbs… but good ones… Fresh veggies… mostly green, some yellow… Light cardio… (closer to none…) My biggest concern is that I am getting FAT… my belly, love handles… bloated and fat. Period. I am working so hard to try to turn this mess into something better and I am hitting a wall…

I am in my fifth? week of TRT and really take nothing else.

Any ideas… ? For what it’s worth, I had my gallbladder out 2 xmas’s ago… seems like all the fat came on thereafter…

I am going to try Velocity… and I swear to you … next is some kind of lipo… I am so depressed… literally.

Sorry for the run-ons… Jet

Thank you Saw… your advice seems very sound and is well-taken. Trying so hard and getting nowhere… ughhh… I just posted my latest concerns…

Thanks a million, Jet

Jet you would be well served to go back and re-read KSMan’s first post. In it he warns you about aromatizing and suggests you use an AI. I am suspicious that after 5 weeks you are in fact aromatizing significantly and this may explain your symptoms. I had a similar experience.

You would do well to seriously consider adding an AI and HCG into your routine before you dig yourself a hole that will be difficult to get out of.

If you are able it would be an excellent time to get some BW done, particularly Estrogen.

[quote]Time2Jet wrote:
Thank you everyone for your input… I have taken what you have given and studied further each day.

I have another pressing issue to throw out…

I feel like hell. Period. Test Cyp. 200mg/wk and Androgel 5mg daily. Lifting and high protein diet. Low carbs… but good ones… Fresh veggies… mostly green, some yellow… Light cardio… (closer to none…) My biggest concern is that I am getting FAT… my belly, love handles… bloated and fat. Period. I am working so hard to try to turn this mess into something better and I am hitting a wall…

I am in my fifth? week of TRT and really take nothing else.

Any ideas… ? For what it’s worth, I had my gallbladder out 2 xmas’s ago… seems like all the fat came on thereafter…

I am going to try Velocity… and I swear to you … next is some kind of lipo… I am so depressed… literally.

Sorry for the run-ons… Jet[/quote]

test cyp at 200mg/wk???

If you had some interesting effects and they are now going away, that can be the E. If you had morning wood, then lost it, that is something definate. Libido can be gained and lost the same way. Reducing E2 will then restore those things and clear the mind and mood.

If you feel ok after you inject then crappy at the end of a week or two week cycle, inject more often. If the good days get shorter and the down days longer, that is E2 levels.

You can get to the point where there are 7 down days a week with no up time. I had that. Switched to injecting T EOD along with HCG on the same days. That leveled me out. But it was the AI that I needed to feel well. My E2 at 37 made me feel like crap. Now at 22 and feeling way better, libido is unleashed. Aiming for the 17-20 range.

[quote]Time2Jet wrote:
My biggest concern is that I am getting FAT… my belly, love handles… bloated and fat. Period. Jet[/quote]

This is totally consistent with TRT driving E2 to higher levels. The E effects may be dominating the T effects.

Diet is important, but if there are excess calories, T does not change the equation if E is controlling you. More muscle mass will help, but you may need to get the E2 levels reduced.

If you have syndrome-X or metabolic disorder, many in that situation would be described as estrogen dominant. Perhaps large amounts of T alone are not going be enough. Many lean guys on TRT need to take an AI. More fat only tips the scales [pun was not intended] in the wrong direction.

Any signs of gyno? That could/can/does happen.

[quote]Time2Jet wrote:

I am going to try Velocity… and I swear to you … next is some kind of lipo… I am so depressed… Jet[/quote]

E levels can make some guys depressed, even when they do not have other adverse problems. This can make some feel worse on TRT than before.

Lipo: The belly fat is for fast deposit and fast release [hard to beleive]. When that is removed, the problem is often not solved. There is also fat inside, called visceral fat, that is the worst from a health point of view. When you remove the outside fat, and have a calorie imbalance, the visceral fat will then grow. So lipo often is not an ideal outcome.

Do you have thyroid levels from your blood work? Thyroid can wreck everything when it comes to weight and calorie balances.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Time2Jet wrote:

I am going to try Velocity… and I swear to you … next is some kind of lipo… I am so depressed… Jet

E levels can make some guys depressed, even when they do not have other adverse problems. This can make some feel worse on TRT than before.

Lipo: The belly fat is for fast deposit and fast release [hard to beleive]. When that is removed, the problem is often not solved. There is also fat inside, called visceral fat, that is the worst from a health point of view. When you remove the outside fat, and have a calorie imbalance, the visceral fat will then grow. So lipo often is not an ideal outcome.

Do you have thyroid levels from your blood work? Thyroid can wreck everything when it comes to weight and calorie balances.[/quote]

Thyroid levels at last check were well within range. No signs of gyno… “yet”. I do think I could use the HCT and AI… I fear my Uro won’t prescribe them… which may be another part of the depression… morning wood… “gone” did come back early in the TRT. So, it sounds like you’re on to something KS… Thanks as usual for taking the time… Jet

Just get your AI as a research chemical. Chemone Research.