T Nation

Boxing / Self Defense

[quote]horny yoda wrote:
Aikido is complete and total utter bullshit.

Ever wonder why you don’t see Aikido guys in a MMA event?

Its because they would get their shit cleaned off their asses, and then thrown right back on…

[/quote]

While I agree with the sentiment, the delivery was a bit off. “Get their shit cleaned off their asses…” That just sounds nasty for the MMA guy doing the cleaning. Ha!

Seriously, I took Aikido for quite a while (so you’d think I’d be all for it), and Horny Yoda is basically correct. None of them train at spead and the uke (the one to whom technique is being applied) simply allows it to happen. Typically Aikidokas are the same ones that will tell you that they know secret stuff that they can’t use, so that’s why they don’t do MMA fights. Um, yeah, right. Aikibujitsu is a bit different and cops have been known to use it, but they get REAL WORLD FULL SPEED “practice.”

Boxing is a good start, but Muay Thai better, IMO. Adding BJJ or other submission fighting sport/art is essential.
I train at an MMA school here that teaches BJJ, Muay Thai and adds the dirty boxing/grappling tips in there in case someone is attacked outside the ring.
Best bet is to not be a jackass and therefore avoid the situation. Never know who might have a knife, gun, or just mad skillz.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh Christ haven’t we had 15 billion threads on this? So who’s going to be the first asshole to mention Bruce Lee?

[/quote]

I guess that would be you. :wink:

[quote]AverageJay wrote:

Are you Dalton from the double deuce. That Roadhouse movie was great.
[/quote]

“I thought you’d be bigger.”

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh Christ haven’t we had 15 billion threads on this? So who’s going to be the first asshole to mention Bruce Lee?

[/quote]

HAHA you were!

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh Christ haven’t we had 15 billion threads on this? So who’s going to be the first asshole to mention Bruce Lee?

[/quote]

Bing bing bing. We have a winner! wooooo wooooooo wooooooo aaaaooooogggggaaaaaah aaaaaoooooooggggggaaaahhhh.

DB

I went the Tai Bo route. It gets me a great workout AND teaches me self-defense at the same time. I no longer fear walking to my car alone at night.

DB

[quote]horny yoda wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
If you have or know something that someone else doesn’t, you have an advantage.
Boxing and aikido would be good. Break a jaw or knock them out when available, or joint locks and throws. Whatever is most usefull.
Heck, a friend of mine that is multi-disciplined claimes that his favorite and most effective move is the “bitchslap”. It’s a great opening move.

Aikido is complete and total utter bullshit.

Ever wonder why you don’t see Aikido guys in a MMA event?

Its because they would get their shit cleaned off their asses, and then thrown right back on…

And it would be about as funny as watching the “ninja guy” and the “hapkido guy” in the first UFC’s.

[/quote]

Get over yourself you couch jockey nit-wit.
You are just too inept to find use for the techniques, but then again, you probably don’t have much use for them on the couch.

It’s all about the application, man. Until you can do that, it doesn’t matter what you watch on t.v.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Excuse me but you’re all full of shit.
[/quote]
Quite a generalization, but we can let that slide for the most part.

[quote]As someone that actually has been paid to protect people - I can tell you the number one weapon / art / discipline of the trade of protecting people. It’s called AVOIDANCE.
[/quote]
No argument there! Amen to that, bodygaurd.

I’m one of them; only 35 yrs old though.

And don’t be and jerk to people. Avoiding large crowds of Soccer fans would help too.

One other reason (mine): Fitness. Beats running and you meet mostly cool people. However, my other post above is more related to just gaining confidence and understanding. I think training in boxing, et. al, would certainly help settle a person down. I know I’m not picking any fights with anyone. Too many folks know way more than I do. That and I’m not an ass (don’t tell my wife that, I’ve got her convinced that I am).

[quote]Chances are, if you’re a law abiding normal person, physical violence will probably never find you in your life unless you choose to engage in it or fail to avoid those circumstances where it is present.
[/quote]
You are on FIRE! Well said.

And most guys aren’t going to be picking a fight with someone they don’t think they can beat. Basically, it’s cowardice to pick a fight with someone you know you can man-handle, and falling-down stupid to take one on that you don’t know about.

[quote]
Take my advice; avoid conflict. If something like boxing will help your confidence - then go ahead and take it…or any other art for that matter that truly interests you. If you want to be a fighter - then you got a long road ahead of you.

Remember; number ONE weapon of those of us who get paid to protect - AVOIDANCE. The average person can avoid trouble. And the average person - boxing class or not - is ill prepared to defend himself - so go back to rule number one - escape, evade, AVOID.

Let the tough guy flaming begin…[/quote]

Not tough guy flaming, but I just want to reiterate that training in MMA will teach you a very valuable lesson: getting the crap knocked out of you is not fun.

Personally, I like the technical aspects of BJJ and the fitness from Muay Thai, but I really do see alot of value in that many of the pro fighters I know are actually pretty humble about it and don’t go around beating on people. I think it’s a bit of a broad brush stroke to say that boxing won’t help, at a minimum you learn what it feels like to get knocked out. That might encourage avoidance.
How redundant was that last paragraph?!
Matt

Boxing or Thai would be just fine.

If it’s street fight issues that you are concered with and you are unable to AVOID the fight (it does happen, though not often) multiple attakers is a very real scenario. And I love the ground arts but rolling on the groung fighting one guy and getting kicked in the ribs and head by his buddies is no way to defend youself, so learn to fight standing up.

learn a good strong standup - boxing or Thai (none of that Above the Law horse crap) -and devote your time to both skill and conditioning work.

After a while learn a grappling art.

Of course you could always become a sheep herder and move to the mountains.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh Christ haven’t we had 15 billion threads on this? So who’s going to be the first asshole to mention Bruce Lee?

[/quote]

FOOOOOOWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
horny yoda wrote:

This too is total bullshit.

You cannot train “without rules” because rules keep your head and body intact so that you CAN TRAIN TOMORROW too.

They also ensure that your training partner CAN TRAIN TOMORROW too.

People who say “the problem is, boxing has rules” are not fighters, and have no idea what they are talking about.

I’d put a pro boxer up against “Mr. Streetfighter” any day, with or without rules, and expect the pro to not only win, but to BEAT THE LIVING SHIT out of mr. idiot.

The rules are in place to keep you relatively safe.

After training with the rules, in a full contact environment, it is very little work to adjust your tactics for “dirty fighting” if a problem should occur on the street.

Again, a boxer who is “fighting dirty” on the street is far, far, far scarier than Mr. Streetfighter is when he is “fighting dirty” on the street.

The two simply do not compare.

But I highly recommend you take up a wrestling art as a primary foundation, and a GOOD striking art (boxing/thai boxing) as a secondary solution.

And WORK THE CLINCH.

How many fights have you been in Yoda?

Have you ever been been hit with a beer bottle? Or better, three?

Have you been hit with a cue ball stuffed in a sock? Or with a skateboard? Or with a log?

Do you know what someone’s stance looks like when they’re going to try to stab you?

Do you know how easy it is to slip a knife out a pocket while you’re “working the clinch”?

Boxing is boxing. Streetfighting is streetfighting. I’m not an expert at either, but I’ve had experience with both. They are seperate completely.

In the boxing ring, the boxer wins. In the street, the streetfighter wins. Why is this so hard to understand?

Because guys like you think that you know everything. Good luck bud. Don’t pick any fights though.[/quote]

Word!

In defense of Aikido (my personal style has been Shotokan, with some dabbling in other styles including a few sessions of Aikido,which obviously doesn’t make me an authority, but…), one of the reasons you don’t see it in MMA is because that would sorta kinda be antithetical to the premise of the art: namely redirecting your opponents energy without intending to cause major bodily harm. It’s not an aggressive art. Yes, during practice, the uke’s allow themselves to be thrown around (partially so they can control their falls and not get hurt), but it’s just like basics in any other art.

In Shotokan, we use a lot of deep, strong stances and exagerated punches, kicks and blocks…during workouts. In sparring it’s a different story, whatever works works. The deep stances, the exaggerated movements, allowing oneself to be tossed around, it’s all just developing your body and coordination.

If you can move quickly in a really low stance, you can move a lot faster up on the balls of your feet in a narrow stance. By exaggerating the full body movement involved in punching, you figure out how your body works fluidly to derive and deliver force to your opponent. Once you figure that out, you translate it to the shorter more realistic and more efficient movements. Same thing with Aikido. It’s the principles that are usefull, being fluid, blending with your opponent and redirecting them, creating an opening for yourself.

In self defense, that might translate in to making sure your opponent misses you and stumbles off balance a bit in the process, giving you the chance to get the hell out of there. There’s no glory in street fighting. There are no winners.

It’s late and I’m tired, so I hope that all made sense.

Take it easy,
Toby

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh Christ haven’t we had 15 billion threads on this? So who’s going to be the first asshole to mention Bruce Lee?

Bing bing bing. We have a winner! wooooo wooooooo wooooooo aaaaooooogggggaaaaaah aaaaaoooooooggggggaaaahhhh.

DB[/quote]

I hate all of you

Horny Yoda take a deep breath Woo Saa!
Good dont ya just feel more relaxed.
First I was not knocking boxing but maybe you missed the news when to professional boxers decided to go at it in a restraunt the day before the match neither knocked each other out but both suffered hand injuries.
Or even the Aussie boxer Jeff Fenech who was badly injure when attacked by a couple of young thugs.
I did not suggest taking all those different martial arts but had you researched some of those systems you would find they incorporate boxing as well groundfighting.
Boxing on its own facing a determined knife fighter my money is on the knife.
Boxer using drty figthing is better than a streetfighter using dirty figthing is the most convoluted bit of nonsense I have ever read, you figth how you train because of muscle memory, repition and habit you think that will change on the street?
the streetfigther is sometimes just as diciplined as the professional boxer.
As to BodyGuard well put about Avoidences but we also have to factor in those occasions when violences cannot be avoided.
How do I know what I am talking about? I have been a Bodyguard And bouncer in Asia and Australia, for 14 years as well as having trained in martial arts for 24 years.
I know you have your own oppinion but mine comes from experience and if you want to try you boxing against someone armed with a knife there are a number of people who will only be to happy just go into some of the bad areas where you live and walk around with
cash in your hands>
Fluffy

The thing about combat is…

The only way to train for it, is to DO it. EVERY martial art is going to do their best to A, educate you as to how your body and your opponent’s body works, B, train strength, flexibility, and muscle memory, and C, remind you that fighting is dumb in the first place, as so many good folk have already mentioned on this thread.

NOW. HOW do you become a good fighter without picking fights and being that asshole little man (or big t-man) that so many people are complaining about? well. Boxing is GREAT because you spar. ANY martial art where sparring is involved is a total bonus, and gives you the opportunity to try things in a relatively safe environment.

That being said in sparring, they don’t hit that hard, there’s only one opponent (typically), and half the time, people move slower subconsciously because they KNOW they’re just sparring.

I’d advise learning two different martial arts. One offensive, and one defenstive. Boxing and Aikido are GREAT ways to learn both how to hit somebody, and how to avoid being hit. Wrestling is also good to learn, because fighting on the ground is an inevitability. I DO like Aikido because it applies to on your feet, on the ground, with one opponent or more - and gives you the ability (though teaching jointlocks etc. that wont necessarily cause harm - key word, necessarily) to say, dislocate someone’s shoulder, break someone’s wrist, etc. if you need to take them out of the fight in a hurry because you have other dudes to get away from. Also, Aikido teaches you how to fall, which has saved my ass more times than I can recall (used to be a skateboarder).

…but then again, we go back to the issue at hand - combat reflexes. I’m no expert fighter, only been in a few streetfights, but I have spent quite a bit of time in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism). We do historical re-enactment type stuff, but “real” combat with simulated weapons instead of the other way around (we use rattan instead of swords - hurts like a bitch sometime but won’t cut yer head off). Some people might poo-poo the SCA and call them pussies for not hitting people as hard as humanly possible, but I can GUARANTEE you those people don’t live in Nor-Cal (or as we call it, the Kingdom of the West). From what I’ve found, we hit harder and fight better out here than anywhere else. (we don’t hit as hard as we can and we don’t grapple because we genuinely don’t want to hurt our opponents - usually our friends, but hey, that’s why we wear REAL ARMOR - so we can hit HARD without remorse) …but that’s not the point. The point is that if you get used to being quick and blocking/dodging and striking with a stick of rattan in 100lbs of armor, those reflexes and the ability to read people’s bodies for motion WILL APPLY to real world situations (I myself have leaned this first hand).

SO, the bottom line? Lean some offense, learn some defense, and do something full-contact and realtime (like swordfighting - Ken-Do is a great way to go too). Like was mentioned, AVOIDANCE is the best policy - but when you HAVE to make a stand (preventing bodily harm to an innocent person - including yourself), make it with confidence, and give yourself every opportunity to succeed.

Good luck.

-Kristoffer

The majority of “streetfights” aren’t with some mythical uber streetfighter who has techniques so cunning and devastating that no “sport” fighter can hope to beat him as some people here seem to be saying. They are usually with drunken thugs who for the most part have little idea how to fight other than windmilling punches.

I agree that avoidance of violent situations is your no.1 form of defence - that was a good post!

There may be situations where you are unable to avoid a violent conflict - these are few and far between but I have seen them and been involved in situations where avoidance was not possible. In these situations it is ludicrous to say that a boxer has no advantage or cross over of skills.
In boxing training you spar/fight on a regular basis - that gives you experience of handling the inevitable adrenalin dump that would freeze many people in a violent situation. It also teaches you to punch hard and accurately, dodge and parry blows and also how to take a hit. The first time you get in a ring and take a punch, even a jab, it hurts and it shocks you, after a while you barely notice it - I wouldn’t want the first time I ever got hit to be in an escalating confrontation, you’d probably shit your pants.

Your hands are your fastest and most readily available weapons, knowing how to use them effectively can only be beneficial.

Any martial art where you spar/fight on a regular basis and has an emphasis on using your hands is going to be helpful on the street.
Also you should look to some form of grappling, judo is good because it teahces you to throw your opponent without hitting the deck yourself and also has regular sparring - the ground is the last place you want to be in a street situation so MMA style BJJ is probably not a good style for the street due to its emphasis on ground fighting.

Muay Thai has all the weapons and is undoubtably effective - but be careful because in my experience schools place heavy emphasis on the kicks, knees and elbows and do not teach effective boxing at all. Kicks are unlikely to be useful in the street/bar and knees and elbows, while VERY useful, have limited range compared to fists.

If you were to do one art i’d choose boxing or Muay Thai (depending on the school), 2 arts either boxing or Muay Thai plus a grappling art, maybe judo or wrestling(i’m in the uk so there is not much wrestling here).

Best for a street fight - " the four d’s, dodge, duck, dive and dodge" then run… lol.

If you want a no nonsense self-defence mechanism (note the use of self defence and not martial art), then choose Krav Maga. Krav Maga, unlike most of the fancy arts, is simple, straight forward and deadly. It is the self-defence mechanism in which all israeli soldiers are trained in. Now, don’t get me wrong, but if a country that since it’s existance has been in a constant war picks this self-defence mechanism, there must be a reason.

The essence of Krav Maga is simple:

The essence of Krav Maga rests on several principles:

First: a somewhat generic principle, i.e., prevention - to avoid being in dangerous situations. For example when hitch-hiking, to avoid unwholesome individuals; when walking, to avoid dangerous neighbourhoods.

Second: Krav Maga is based on the human body’s natural reflexes.

Third: Starting from whichever position one is, in to defend and attack along the shortest distance and to favour methods which involve minimum personal risk.

Fourth: To attempt to discourage one’s opponent verbally bearing in mind the actual situation, its requirements and the danger presented.

Fifth: to attack the weak areas of the human body (the eyes, the throat) in order to strike or to subdue one’s opponent;

Sixth: to try to use any object within one’s reach as well as the body’s natural weapons;

Seventh: the most realistic principle: no holds barred, no boundaries as to the techniques employed, nothing is forbidden, all strikes are legitimate.

Beware though, in the US Krav Maga tends to be shit. Yes shit. It’s too commercial and focuses on keeping clients happy by making them pass from one belt to the next way too quickly. On average, if being trained properly you should pass belt every year or so.
This is not based on what you have learnt but on how well you can use what you have learnt. It is not uncommon to spar against more than one person at a time.

It will also teach you to handle armed situations, knifes, sticks, guns, etc.

Basically… It is a mighty good defence mechanism. Now “hit hit hit” theory, just, “if you really must then fuck them up a.s.a.p. before they fuck you up”… :slight_smile:

Anyways, have a search on the web… you’ll be impressed…

Ale

http://www.krav-maga.net/uk/krav.htm

Check the link out for more info on Krav Maga.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I don’t think anything beats a swift kick to the nuts as far as self-defense is concerned.[/quote]

My instructor used to live in NY and he was confronted by an aggressive vagrant so he kicked him in the nuts and lifted him a couple inches off the ground and when his feet were touching again he punched my instructor in the face and knocked him down. (He was jacked up on something).

My instructor got up and made the junkies knee bend both ways.

FatSensei

You guys are all big losers, the best way to defend yourself is by having a good offense. In fact I suggest starting shit with as many people as you can, and once everyone notices that you are not afraid of anyone, nobody will even think of fighting you. Kid at the bar looked at you funny? Walk right up and punch him in the face then make fun of him. Fat guy smells bad and makes you mad, go step on his toe then knock his fat ass over and watch him roll around. Old lady moving too slow for your taste, give her a good whack to the back of the head.

As long as you are ALWAYS on the offensive, noone will ever be able to get a shot in on you. I also reccomend going to hospitals to bitch slap some babies, just so they know who the boss is when they are old enough to walk and talk. Also hitting people in the back of the head with a blunt heavy object BEFORE you even talk to them, when they aren’t looking always stops a confrontation before it starts. They cant argue or fight with you if they are riding an ambulence to the hospital now can they.

This is the best advice ever and you guys are all dweebs.

V